The Assassination of Hrant Dink

[bell-the-cat]

You too would be in a hard position if all your life everyone around you, including your parents said that there was not enough evidence to call the Armenian genocide, a genocide. I could have believed them (they are only my parents and immediate family afterall) but I wanted to find out about the Armenian opinion. Simply listening to someone saying that it did not happen does not make me believe that it did not indeed happen. And I think you are wrong to say that the Turks do not think it is worth the trouble, admitting to the genocide would have an enormous impact on Turkey how can they think its not worth the trouble? It is quite possibly the most discussed issue in Turkey today. And it is true I don't know anything about the genocide except that it happened during WWI that it was the Turks who killed the Armenians and that thousands were killed and Turkey is denying it today. So I suppose it is next to nothing, are you saying that even though I know so little about it (although perhaps just knowing these would be enough for you) I should be forced to come to a conclusion? Please do not forget though, as I have written in an earlier post, I have said that because it were the Armenians who were killed, they shold be the ones to decide on what to call it. If they believe it a genocide, then perhaps it indeed is. But I am confused, just in an earlier post you said that the genocide was too long ago which gave me the impression that you did not think that it should be this much "publicized" since it was too long ago, did I get the wrong impression?

The Armenian genocide is an important element of being "Armenian", it's a way of self-identification, and a way to bring Armenians together in a common cause. Maybe the denial of that genocide is used by nationalistic Turks in a similar way. ???

But the actual reality of the Armenian genocide is separate from that. Like I said, it is not "owned" by Armenians (and, actually, Armenians were amongst the last to use the term "genocide" to describe what had happened to their nation). It was called the "disaster", the "calamity" (somone here will be able to give you the actual Armenian word). Eyewitnesses were calling it a holocaust when it was hapening, and that was the term that was used to describe it until the 1950s. Genocide is a legal term, btw, and what happened to Turkey's Armenians does easily fall within the definition of genocide.

[phantom]

Jade, I don't want to put words in Belle's mouth; Belle is much smarter than me for me to do such a thing. But I will say that I agree with Belle that far less information is required than most deniers would have you believe in order to determine that this was a Genocide. For a laymen, I believe I've studied the issue extensively, yet it always comes down to the following facts, which are known to even the novices:

1. Until 1915, Anatolia/Asia Minor was the home of more than half the world's Armenian population who had lived on those lands for not just a few generations, but virtually 2 1/2 millenia.

2. By 1923, there were almost no Armenians at all left in Anatolia, and virtually the only Armenians left living within the new Republic of Turkey were about 100,000 in Istanbul.

3. The Young Turks ordered the deportations, not just of revolutionary or rebellious Armenians, but all Armenians including women, children and elderly.

4. These people were deported mostly on foot for hundreds of miles with little food, water or shelter, through circuitous routes that made no sense unless the intent was exhausting them to death.

5. These people were deported to locations in the desserts of present-day Syria where there was nothing to sustain life, and no provisions had been made to sustain their life once they got there (no food, no clean water, no shelter, no clothing).

Full stop.

I believe that's all you need to know in order to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that the Young Turks' knew or should have known that their actions would lead to the extermination of the Armenian population of Anatolia. Either that, or you have to conclude that the founders of the Republic of Turkey were so utterly stupid and incompetent, that they could not foresee that their actions would lead to the results that we see in 1923, the elimination of virtually the entire Armenian population of Anatolia.

I don't know if this is what Belle means, but this is how I view it.

[1.5 million]

.. the Armenian genocide happened too long ago for such things as personal or collective loss to be credible emotions.

As a being without true human emotions (or more correctly any ability to understand others and think/feel beyond your narrow self interest) I can see how it is easy for you to come to this (entirely false) conclusion. All Armenians feel otherwise and you have no clue.

[bell-the-cat]

Jade, I don't want to put words in Belle's mouth; Belle is much smarter than me for me to do such a thing. But I will say that I agree with Belle that far less information is required than most deniers would have you believe in order to determine that this was a Genocide. For a laymen, I believe I've studied the issue extensively, yet it always comes down to the following facts, which are known to even the novices:

1. Until 1915, Anatolia/Asia Minor was the home of more than half the world's Armenian population who had lived on those lands for not just a few generations, but virtually 2 1/2 millenia.

2. By 1923, there were almost no Armenians at all left in Anatolia, and virtually the only Armenians left living within the new Republic of Turkey were about 100,000 in Istanbul.

3. The Young Turks ordered the deportations, not just of revolutionary or rebellious Armenians, but all Armenians including women, children and elderly.

4. These people were deported mostly on foot for hundreds of miles with little food, water or shelter, through circuitous routes that made no sense unless the intent was exhausting them to death.

5. These people were deported to locations in the desserts of present-day Syria where there was nothing to sustain life, and no provisions had been made to sustain their life once they got there (no food, no clean water, no shelter, no clothing).

Full stop.

I believe that's all you need to know in order to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that the Young Turks' knew or should have known that their actions would lead to the extermination of the Armenian population of Anatolia. Either that, or you have to conclude that the founders of the Republic of Turkey were so utterly stupid and incompetent, that they could not foresee that their actions would lead to the results that we see in 1923, the elimination of virtually the entire Armenian population of Anatolia.

I don't know if this is what Belle means, but this is how I view it.

Ermmm, pleeeze it's not Belle

Apart from that, yes that's about what I meant.

An addition would be to point out that most of those Armenians who survived the genocide wanted to return to their homes after the war. Many were not allowed to return, and those that did return were forced to leave again during the initial years of the Republican period. Again, that fits with the definition of genocide.

[Jade]

Ermmm, pleeeze it's not Belle

Apart from that, yes that's about what I meant.

An addition would be to point out that most of those Armenians who survived the genocide wanted to return to their homes after the war. Many were not allowed to return, and those that did return were forced to leave again during the initial years of the Republican period. Again, that fits with the definition of genocide.

So from this we have atleast established one thing; that it did happen.
And yes, I agree with the fact that most Turks would think its not worth the trouble; imagine this, if someone were to walk into a city square shouting "The genocide did happen" imagine the reaction...Not only would you probably be branded as "vatan haini" but perhaps things might carry on to the extreme and you might end up in court..who knows? And please 1.5 million, you should not let your personal feelings about Bell (not belle) interfere with your way of thinking. If you do not like her/him tell them via pm not in a way so that others can see it too...don't you think it raises unecessary tension?

[Joseph]

I agree with Jade, no more personal battles back and forth that disrupt the purpose of this site.

[Joseph]

Jade, I don't want to put words in Belle's mouth; Belle is much smarter than me for me to do such a thing. But I will say that I agree with Belle that far less information is required than most deniers would have you believe in order to determine that this was a Genocide. For a laymen, I believe I've studied the issue extensively, yet it always comes down to the following facts, which are known to even the novices:

1. Until 1915, Anatolia/Asia Minor was the home of more than half the world's Armenian population who had lived on those lands for not just a few generations, but virtually 2 1/2 millenia.

2. By 1923, there were almost no Armenians at all left in Anatolia, and virtually the only Armenians left living within the new Republic of Turkey were about 100,000 in Istanbul.

3. The Young Turks ordered the deportations, not just of revolutionary or rebellious Armenians, but all Armenians including women, children and elderly.

4. These people were deported mostly on foot for hundreds of miles with little food, water or shelter, through circuitous routes that made no sense unless the intent was exhausting them to death.

5. These people were deported to locations in the desserts of present-day Syria where there was nothing to sustain life, and no provisions had been made to sustain their life once they got there (no food, no clean water, no shelter, no clothing).

Full stop.

I believe that's all you need to know in order to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that the Young Turks' knew or should have known that their actions would lead to the extermination of the Armenian population of Anatolia. Either that, or you have to conclude that the founders of the Republic of Turkey were so utterly stupid and incompetent, that they could not foresee that their actions would lead to the results that we see in 1923, the elimination of virtually the entire Armenian population of Anatolia.

I don't know if this is what Belle means, but this is how I view it.

6. Almost the entire male Armenian population was eliminated prior to the death marches and massacres.

[Joseph]

The Armenian genocide is an important element of being "Armenian", it's a way of self-identification, and a way to bring Armenians together in a common cause. Maybe the denial of that genocide is used by nationalistic Turks in a similar way. ???

But the actual reality of the Armenian genocide is separate from that. Like I said, it is not "owned" by Armenians (and, actually, Armenians were amongst the last to use the term "genocide" to describe what had happened to their nation). It was called the "disaster", the "calamity" (somone here will be able to give you the actual Armenian word). Eyewitnesses were calling it a holocaust when it was hapening, and that was the term that was used to describe it until the 1950s. Genocide is a legal term, btw, and what happened to Turkey's Armenians does easily fall within the definition of genocide.

In the immediate aftermath of the Genocide, the term "crime against humanity" (used by Amnesty International) was coined to describe it. I sometimes think a better description of the events should be called a the "Christian Genocide" or some other "-insert here- Genocide" because in addition to Armenians, the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Nestorians, Maronites and Pontic Greeks were targeted and also lost many thousands of their populations which is too often overlooked.

[Joseph]

Thank you for the warm welcome everyone...I honestly felt delighted and honored...I represent a new generation that is willing to accept the past and to move on. You, the Armenians are the ones who were hurt, therefore you should set the terms. If you think this is a genocide, and if you believe you have enough evidence to do so (which, from what I have gathered, you do have), then for the sake of those who died, and for the sake of their families, then it should be called so. Perhaps it will not bring the dead back, but it is the least that could be done...I believe this is very important for the Armenians, that it should be recognised as genocide. And I suppose the sad truth (sad for the Turks) is this; Turkey will not able to move on without having accepted their mistakes. Perhaps, the name does not matter, what matters is this; that people died. And a lot of them did. If you could imagine the vastness of the situation. Not only the people. But the children they could never have...The grandchildren...It adds to an entire generation. A lost generation. You were robbed of that. I believe that this is the problem. The generation that you will never have back. I don't know why the Turks would refuse to call it a genocide...The Germans have, and they have moved on, they are now the biggest advocators of Human Rights. They have learned their lesson. As long as Turkey does not admit, then she will never be able to move on. And the rest of the world will shun them. Please, do not be bitter towards the Turks. We won our independence through very difficult circumstances through a war and sacrifice...And now the Islamists are trying to take it away again. That is why the Nationalists are so extreme. They are afraid. Try to understand them. We have only had a Republic since 1923, and there are so many people in Turkey who want to see Turkey a modern western country. Yet there are others who continue to be extremely religious. I for one am personally tired of seeing women in black shawls covering their entire body including their face save for the eyes. You could find that in Turkey. In modern day Istanbul. Everywhere. We are fighting them while trying to keep an image. You become extremely possesive about something that you want but are facing the danger of losing. That I believe, is the explanation of nationalism in Turkey. A country torn between the west and the Arabic influence. When Ataturk was in power, he had changed the law so that the Islamic call to prayer through the mosque, (the ezan) would be made in Turkish. Now its back to being made in Arabic. Millions today are saying prayers in a language that they don't understand. Can you imagine the horribleness of the situation?...This for me, the fear of losing the country to internal forces, is the fear that drives the nationalists. The reason they cannot find any fault in Turkey. The reason they react to people like Orhan Pamuk and Elif Safak who "insult the Turkishness". But the real people who actually do insult the "Turkishness" are the people who walk the streets of Istanbul and Ankara in veils. Of course it is their right, everyone is free to do as they wish, but because of these people, most Westerners believe that all the Turks are like that. This is what drives me crazy. The denial...The extremists...What could be done?

Welcome aboard Jade

[Jade]

Thanks