The Assassination of Hrant Dink

[Joseph]

believe me I had the exact same thoughts in mind when I joined this forum...maybe I cannot ensure amicable relations between all armenians and turks worldwide but I can atleast try and learn something about Armenians from people like you and perhaps try and teach something about the Turks like me in return...cultural exchange

JADE, if you cannot ensure amicable relations between Turks and Armenians, you must leave now!!!!

Lol

In the end we're all like drops in the ocean and make our friends one at a time. It's good that you are here.

[1.5 million]

I agree (with the preceeding comments)...its always advisable to treat people as individuals first - deserving of proper respect and courtesy - then to just think of them as (part of) some group. Of course there have been instances - when certain Turks come here and start spouting the same same same (as we have heard so many times before) and I just skip step one (being nice) and go off...I'm flawed what can I say....

[Jade]

Yes I've seen the reactions those Turks received Everyone is flawed in one way or the other...but you have to understand that those are what those people have been taught all their lives...and perhaps challenging the idea never occured to them.

[Vogelgrippe]

A Turkish feedback!

Well...I am sort of trying to show everyone that not all Turks are the same
But yes, I suppose I am different...Maybe because I don't live in Turkey..Who knows?

Jade,

First of all, I have to admit that spending this critical part of your life and adulthood outside Turkey has more advantages than setbacks. I guess you can consider yourself lucky

I am glad, and also afraid, that as you move on with your research and reading, you will find unpleasant facts regarding the histories and deeds of both Turks and Armenians. I am quite sure, as an ethnic Turk (whatever this ethnic means…), you are more familiar with the official bullxxxxs which are propagated by Turkish authorities. Some of them include,

-The claim that Ottoman authorities did not know, or guess, that a deportation of such a scale would claim the lives of the majority of Armenians who were deported. And then, the fake and insincere "OMG, we didn’t know that so many Armenians would perish" attitude, which is even worse. Given that even the Ottoman army had not suffered a 80-90 % loss at Sarikamish, Armenian casualty rates of this magnitude strongly suggest that Turkish official version is seriously, logically, and terribly wrong.

-Our ridiculous Article 301 of the penal code, which allows our government to prosecute not only terrorists, but also Nobel-winning authors, and honorable journalists such as Hrant Dink. Needless to day, the court hearings have to be done with maximum publicity possible, so that fascist mobs can molest, insult, and even target these innocent people. As a result, a part of me, and probably of you, lies lifeless on the sidewalk of otherwise vibrant Osmanbey district, where Dink was dastardly slain.

The list is longer, and you probably know as much as I do how much we have to reform and improve, regardless of whether we want to join the EU or not.

About the cons of Armenians, well, suffice it to tell you to look at previous postings of some Armenian members. If you have time to do some research, even within the website’s postings, you will find out that:

-Armenia has an ongoing territorial claim on Eastern Turkey, which is pronounced officially by Dashnaks (part of the current Armenian governing coalition). You will also read here that it is very normal that the Armenian flag has ‘Agri Dagi’ (Mount Ararat) on it. I would be glad to find out, from you, or from other forum members, whether there is any other county in the world, which has a geographic symbol of a neighboring country on its flag.

-Armenia abuses the genocide issue to continue its occupation of Karabagh, and about 10-20 percent of remaining Azerbaijan proper. The logic behind is, however simplified it is, the ‘damn Turks took our lands 90 years ago, now we are taking their cousins’ land’ attitude.

-Armenian refusal to acknowledge that, even before the disputed genocide, the Armenians did not constitute a majority in Eastern Turkey (with the possible exception of downtown Van, where Armenians were, according to some sources, a slight majority). Therefore: Irredentist claims such as the return of these territories do not want to avenge the disputed genocide of 90 years ago, but their supporters want to avenge the historical events which stretch back almost 1000 years, when Seldzhuk armies had defeated the Byzantines at Marzikent (Malazgirt) in 1071.

Well, here I am, a fellow Turk like you, who feels relatively safer in his ethnic home due to his German citizenship. With these paragraphs above, I probably did enough Turk- and Armenian bashing, so I hardly expect to find any sympathizers. Still, my main purpose remains to warn you against Armenian brainwashers ( you seem to be sufficiently liberated from the influence of Turkish brainwashers). Other than that, I wish you all the best, and success in your future career moves.

[1.5 million]

Vogel - I have quite a few issues with your various assertions but have to go now so I will have to address them later.

[Vogelgrippe]

Vogel - I have quite a few issues with your various assertions but have to go now so I will have to address them later.

Anytime, 1.5 million.

According to what I know about you from reading your postings , I am inclined to question your (newly acquired?) respect for conscientious Turks, but I admire your intelligence.

Therefore I look forward to your feedback.

[Jade]

why do you say "conscientious"? for me? how am I in any way "conscientious"? This is not a backlash just asking out of pure curiosity

[Vogelgrippe]

why do you say "conscientious"? for me? how am I in any way "conscientious"? This is not a backlash just asking out of pure curiosity

I used the term 'conscientious' in terms of being able to feel regret & sorrow for the misdeeds of kinsmen (and in this specific sense), ancestors. The Turkish equivalent would be 'vicdanli'. I used it quite as a compliment

[Jade]

oh ok... well I wouldn't want to comment on whether 1.5's "respect" is newly acquired or not but what matters is that it is acquired... (although you are still inclined to question it)
however, there is one thing one fact that has been a major interest for me; the fact that armenia does indeed have mount ararat on their flag...I have seen pictures of yerevan and in most cases yerevan has a very clear view of the mountain. and I know that the mountain has historical importance to the armenians, is that the reason why the mountain is up there on the flag?
but mt. ararat is in turkey...this is quite interesting.

[phantom]

Jade,

First of all, I have to admit that spending this critical part of your life and adulthood outside Turkey has more advantages than setbacks. I guess you can consider yourself lucky

I am glad, and also afraid, that as you move on with your research and reading, you will find unpleasant facts regarding the histories and deeds of both Turks and Armenians. I am quite sure, as an ethnic Turk (whatever this ethnic means…), you are more familiar with the official bullxxxxs which are propagated by Turkish authorities. Some of them include,

-The claim that Ottoman authorities did not know, or guess, that a deportation of such a scale would claim the lives of the majority of Armenians who were deported. And then, the fake and insincere "OMG, we didn’t know that so many Armenians would perish" attitude, which is even worse. Given that even the Ottoman army had not suffered a 80-90 % loss at Sarikamish, Armenian casualty rates of this magnitude strongly suggest that Turkish official version is seriously, logically, and terribly wrong.

-Our ridiculous Article 301 of the penal code, which allows our government to prosecute not only terrorists, but also Nobel-winning authors, and honorable journalists such as Hrant Dink. Needless to day, the court hearings have to be done with maximum publicity possible, so that fascist mobs can molest, insult, and even target these innocent people. As a result, a part of me, and probably of you, lies lifeless on the sidewalk of otherwise vibrant Osmanbey district, where Dink was dastardly slain.

The list is longer, and you probably know as much as I do how much we have to reform and improve, regardless of whether we want to join the EU or not.

About the cons of Armenians, well, suffice it to tell you to look at previous postings of some Armenian members. If you have time to do some research, even within the website’s postings, you will find out that:

-Armenia has an ongoing territorial claim on Eastern Turkey, which is pronounced officially by Dashnaks (part of the current Armenian governing coalition). You will also read here that it is very normal that the Armenian flag has ‘Agri Dagi’ (Mount Ararat) on it. I would be glad to find out, from you, or from other forum members, whether there is any other county in the world, which has a geographic symbol of a neighboring country on its flag.

-Armenia abuses the genocide issue to continue its occupation of Karabagh, and about 10-20 percent of remaining Azerbaijan proper. The logic behind is, however simplified it is, the ‘damn Turks took our lands 90 years ago, now we are taking their cousins’ land’ attitude.

-Armenian refusal to acknowledge that, even before the disputed genocide, the Armenians did not constitute a majority in Eastern Turkey (with the possible exception of downtown Van, where Armenians were, according to some sources, a slight majority). Therefore: Irredentist claims such as the return of these territories do not want to avenge the disputed genocide of 90 years ago, but their supporters want to avenge the historical events which stretch back almost 1000 years, when Seldzhuk armies had defeated the Byzantines at Marzikent (Malazgirt) in 1071.

Well, here I am, a fellow Turk like you, who feels relatively safer in his ethnic home due to his German citizenship. With these paragraphs above, I probably did enough Turk- and Armenian bashing, so I hardly expect to find any sympathizers. Still, my main purpose remains to warn you against Armenian brainwashers ( you seem to be sufficiently liberated from the influence of Turkish brainwashers). Other than that, I wish you all the best, and success in your future career moves.

1. Here's a link to the picture of the Armenian flag .http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/a/am.gif . You'll note that it is simply a red band atop a blue band atop an orange band. There's no picture of Mount Ararat unless it's invisible to the human eye. Where did you get the idea that Mount Ararat is on the Armenian flag?

2. The country of Armenia has no territorial claim on Turkey whatsoever. The Dashnag party, which is a small party in Armenia, has a claim, not the country of Armenia. This is just an excuse the Turkish government uses to choke the economy of Armenia by keeping its border closed.

3. Regarding Karabagh! How does one "occupy" a land on which its people have lived in the overwhelming majority for time immemorial? As we all know, the people of Karabagh legally and peacefully voted to secede from Azerbaijan in a referendum in the exact same manner in which Azerbaijan voted to secede from the USSR. And the result was that the Azeris attacked the people of Karabagh. They shot the first bullet. They also were the first to show their aggression when they attacked civilians in Sumgait and Baku, before the Armenians of Karabagh seceded. The fact is that Azeris cannot be trusted to rule over Armenians. Without doubt, they will persecute them in every way they can. Azerbaijan has done nothing in the past 20 years to prove that hypothesis wrong. One need go only to Jugha to see that they will not even leave ancient Armenian headstones in tact, let alone living Armenian people. Karabagh was never a part of the country of Azerbaijan, and consequently, your mischaracterization of Armenians as an "occupying force" suggests you either know very little about that land, its history and its people, or you know the facts, but wish to intentionally misstate them.

Other than that, I am not in disagreement with your comments.