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Joseph, 1,5 mil, Bell, Phantom
Given your numerical superiority and my time constraints, I will try to respond to several issues, which you raised in one posting. Please remind me if in case I inadvertently left any questions unanswered or unexplained.
About Karabagh and my alleged shifting of positions:Two months ago, or two years ago, and now, I see the Armenian presence in Karabagh as an occupation. Nevertheless, I believe that this occupation, unlike the occupation of remaining Azeri territories, sits on a morally justifiable ground, mainly due to the ethnic Armenian majority in Karabagh . Until the international community recognizes this de facto situation, however, this is an occupation whether you like this definition or not. (By the same token, the situation in Northern Cyprus and Kosovo can also be considered an occupation until the U.N assigns these territories to their rightful owners. Needless to say, I firmly believe that Northern Cyprus should belong to Turks, Kosovo to Albanians, and Karabagh to Armenians when things are finally settled. After the transfer of these 3 regions to the present de-factor rulers, there were no more bloodshed in Cyprus, Karabagh, and Kosovo. Greeks & Turks, Serbians & Albanians, and Armenians & Azeris who were slaughtering each other while trying to cohabit, are living in a relative peace now. Simple as it may be, this is my conclusion: There is now less bloodshed in the status quo, so status quo is better than before. Clear enough?
About the ‘generous’ Armenian offer to return occupied Azerbaijan proper territories minus the Lachin corridor:
Give me a break! First, you occupy what you believe is rightfully yours (accepted), then you occupy what you believe may be necessary for negotiation purposes and to secure the status of Karabagh (still accepted), but then, when it comes to negotiation and resettlement, you do not accept to return all of what you took for negotiation purposes (not accepted). You only know too well how hard it is for Azeri leadership to swallow the loss of Karabagh, to know better that it will be impossible to digest the loss of Lachin to start with. Good luck in convincing the world that you perfect angels won’t harm Nachcivan which is cut off from Azerbaijan, but that Azeri devils will swallow Karabagh when it remains cut of from Armenia!
About the ‘safety and security’ of Karabagh Armenians:
Until I read the relevant postings I thought nobody in his right mind would worry about the safety and security of occupying forces in Azerbaijan proper. If Armenia were sincerely worried about protecting Karabagh Armenians from Azeri attacks, it would do so by trying to secure the status of Karabagh by offering Azerbaijan all remaining parts of occupied territories in exchange for Karabagh. And until Karabagh’s status secured, there are many ways, such as UN peacekeeping forces, to ascertain that bellicose parties do not attack each other. This has worked in Cyprus for 30 years, in Kosovo for 5-6 years (It has not worked in Lebanon, because UN forces in Lebanese-Israeli borders were not allowed to carry weapons and to act proactively). Why not try such a solution instead of blaming the victims
Therefore: I DO NOT BLAME Armenia for not withdrawing from Azerbaijan proper without having achieved recognition of Karabaghs independent status. However, I DO BLAME Armenia for not offering the return of the entire occupied Azerbaijan proper territory, and for adding insult to injury by trying to keep the Lachin corridor.
About the ‘innocent’ Mt. Ararat symbol on Armenian coat of arms:
Even back in late 19th century, there were probably more humane and acceptable procedures against citizens who involved in subversive or separatist activities, and we all know that Ottomans miserably failed to apply them. That does not change the fact however, that if, this symbol was used (and eventually banned by Ottoman and Russian authorities) among Armenians, it was a subversive and criminal act. Thus, both Ottomans and Russians were doing the right thing if they investigated, prosecuted, and preferably jailed those Armenians who had involved in these activities. Again, and again, and again, (so that you don’t twist my words and claim that I am a massacre-supporter), Ottomans most probably abused, exaggerated, and mismanaged this separatist threat and spilled the blood of many innocent Armenians, instead of leaving the innocent Armenians in peace and jailing the guilty ones. This having said, it also goes without saying that two wrongs do not make a right, and that Ottoman’s cruel and unjust punishment does not make Mt. Ararat obsession less subversive and separatist by then.
And finally, there is one big curiosity of mine. Do Armenian government, Armenian Diaspora, and Armenian individuals, never make mistakes in their dealings with Turks? I have written many pages over detailing the errors and shortcomings of Turkish governments and individuals, and I simply did this because this was my most sincere belief, not because I needed/expected any sympathy or support from you. Neither was it a tactical or political move to soften you for my criticism directed at Armenia and Armenian diaspora. Still, you guys also wrote long replies listing how wrong I am whenever I see anything wrong with anything Armenian. Therefore I really and seriously start to ask myself: can you never ever be less knowledgeable, or less correct, or more biased, or more indoctrinated, or more intransigent in even on single subject or issue? Because if you can, you can also be sure that most Turks, at official or individual level, will more than reciprocate this mature approach.
Given your numerical superiority and my time constraints, I will try to respond to several issues, which you raised in one posting. Please remind me if in case I inadvertently left any questions unanswered or unexplained.
About Karabagh and my alleged shifting of positions:Two months ago, or two years ago, and now, I see the Armenian presence in Karabagh as an occupation. Nevertheless, I believe that this occupation, unlike the occupation of remaining Azeri territories, sits on a morally justifiable ground, mainly due to the ethnic Armenian majority in Karabagh . Until the international community recognizes this de facto situation, however, this is an occupation whether you like this definition or not. (By the same token, the situation in Northern Cyprus and Kosovo can also be considered an occupation until the U.N assigns these territories to their rightful owners. Needless to say, I firmly believe that Northern Cyprus should belong to Turks, Kosovo to Albanians, and Karabagh to Armenians when things are finally settled. After the transfer of these 3 regions to the present de-factor rulers, there were no more bloodshed in Cyprus, Karabagh, and Kosovo. Greeks & Turks, Serbians & Albanians, and Armenians & Azeris who were slaughtering each other while trying to cohabit, are living in a relative peace now. Simple as it may be, this is my conclusion: There is now less bloodshed in the status quo, so status quo is better than before. Clear enough?
About the ‘generous’ Armenian offer to return occupied Azerbaijan proper territories minus the Lachin corridor:
Give me a break! First, you occupy what you believe is rightfully yours (accepted), then you occupy what you believe may be necessary for negotiation purposes and to secure the status of Karabagh (still accepted), but then, when it comes to negotiation and resettlement, you do not accept to return all of what you took for negotiation purposes (not accepted). You only know too well how hard it is for Azeri leadership to swallow the loss of Karabagh, to know better that it will be impossible to digest the loss of Lachin to start with. Good luck in convincing the world that you perfect angels won’t harm Nachcivan which is cut off from Azerbaijan, but that Azeri devils will swallow Karabagh when it remains cut of from Armenia!
About the ‘safety and security’ of Karabagh Armenians:
Until I read the relevant postings I thought nobody in his right mind would worry about the safety and security of occupying forces in Azerbaijan proper. If Armenia were sincerely worried about protecting Karabagh Armenians from Azeri attacks, it would do so by trying to secure the status of Karabagh by offering Azerbaijan all remaining parts of occupied territories in exchange for Karabagh. And until Karabagh’s status secured, there are many ways, such as UN peacekeeping forces, to ascertain that bellicose parties do not attack each other. This has worked in Cyprus for 30 years, in Kosovo for 5-6 years (It has not worked in Lebanon, because UN forces in Lebanese-Israeli borders were not allowed to carry weapons and to act proactively). Why not try such a solution instead of blaming the victims
Therefore: I DO NOT BLAME Armenia for not withdrawing from Azerbaijan proper without having achieved recognition of Karabaghs independent status. However, I DO BLAME Armenia for not offering the return of the entire occupied Azerbaijan proper territory, and for adding insult to injury by trying to keep the Lachin corridor.
About the ‘innocent’ Mt. Ararat symbol on Armenian coat of arms:
Even back in late 19th century, there were probably more humane and acceptable procedures against citizens who involved in subversive or separatist activities, and we all know that Ottomans miserably failed to apply them. That does not change the fact however, that if, this symbol was used (and eventually banned by Ottoman and Russian authorities) among Armenians, it was a subversive and criminal act. Thus, both Ottomans and Russians were doing the right thing if they investigated, prosecuted, and preferably jailed those Armenians who had involved in these activities. Again, and again, and again, (so that you don’t twist my words and claim that I am a massacre-supporter), Ottomans most probably abused, exaggerated, and mismanaged this separatist threat and spilled the blood of many innocent Armenians, instead of leaving the innocent Armenians in peace and jailing the guilty ones. This having said, it also goes without saying that two wrongs do not make a right, and that Ottoman’s cruel and unjust punishment does not make Mt. Ararat obsession less subversive and separatist by then.
And finally, there is one big curiosity of mine. Do Armenian government, Armenian Diaspora, and Armenian individuals, never make mistakes in their dealings with Turks? I have written many pages over detailing the errors and shortcomings of Turkish governments and individuals, and I simply did this because this was my most sincere belief, not because I needed/expected any sympathy or support from you. Neither was it a tactical or political move to soften you for my criticism directed at Armenia and Armenian diaspora. Still, you guys also wrote long replies listing how wrong I am whenever I see anything wrong with anything Armenian. Therefore I really and seriously start to ask myself: can you never ever be less knowledgeable, or less correct, or more biased, or more indoctrinated, or more intransigent in even on single subject or issue? Because if you can, you can also be sure that most Turks, at official or individual level, will more than reciprocate this mature approach.
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