Interesting Kurdish perspective

[hitite]

OK, so these lands definately dont belong to Turks, understood. So who the heck do they belong to? Is it western Armenia or Northern Kurdistan? Is Ararat Armenian or Kurdish? With so many peoples dribbling over the same real estate I guess its better off for it all to belong to Turkey. Oh well it already does, doesn't it? Reading all these articles about the historical ownership of these lands and all sometimes makes you forget who they belong to NOW. Maybe the whole world should go back to where they came from around 1000 years ago so the stuff you guys talk about can make some sense.

So how would you folks correct the map below. I know the first thing you'd say is first wipe the Turks off the map and then you'll sort things out.... but how...:



Hows this for an "Interesting Kurdish Perspective"?

[Joseph]

No Kurdistan needed it will open up a new can of worms, I approve of Kurds recognizing there acts during the Armenian Genocide but claiming our lands is even worse.

I'm all for a Kurdistan in what is Northern Iraq. As far as Eastern Turkey is concerned, the Kurds are realistically the majority is most regions so any claims Armenians make towards those regions, though deserved, are all for naught. Over decades the Kurdish population has exploded and it does not look like that trend is going to change any time soon. Unfortunately barring some miracle, Armenians will probably never control their original homeland ever again. It's sad but true. Or only hope is that the Turks keep on pursuing their racist policies vis a vis the Kurds until a boiling point is reached and there is a civil war, which may very well happen. We can hope that when the area falls under eventual Kurdish control we will have magnanimous relations with the Kurds and they will let Armenians freely travel to our ancient sites and have open borders.

[Joseph]

OK, so these lands definately dont belong to Turks, understood. So who the heck do they belong to? Is it western Armenia or Northern Kurdistan? Is Ararat Armenian or Kurdish? With so many peoples dribbling over the same real estate I guess its better off for it all to belong to Turkey. Oh well it already does, doesn't it? Reading all these articles about the historical ownership of these lands and all sometimes makes you forget who they belong to NOW. Maybe the whole world should go back to where they came from around 1000 years ago so the stuff you guys talk about can make some sense.

So how would you folks correct the map below. I know the first thing you'd say is first wipe the Turks off the map and then you'll sort things out.... but how...:



Hows this for an "Interesting Kurdish Perspective"?

Having a time machine would indeed be ideal. Perhaps knowing what we know now, Armenians would heed the words of Abovian and build more fortresses and walls than churches. Perhaps they would have insisted their sons become soldiers instead of craftsmen and merchants.

I realize exactly what your are trying imply. Most diaspora Armenians are not after land or even reparations for that matter but we do want justice to be done.

Ideally, Armenians would love to have Ararat, Ani, Kars (Vanand), and Van back (as these were important places and now relics of our culture and we still feel tied to those areas) but we know this is not happening even though Turks are instructed that Armenians are working tirelessly towards that ambition. Armenians/Armenia has neither the strength, resources, population to attempt to change the present day reality... but on the other hand...

The majority of the population in the region(s) depicted in the map is most certainly Kurdish although prior the the Genocide there were (at varying sizes) significant populations of Armenians (with a majority of the population in Van/Vaspurakan) , Assyrians, Greeks, Chaldeans, Nestorians, etc. but thanks to our Turkish and Kurdish friends, this is no more. I wonder why?

Realistically, if we are using demographics, the Kurds are and will probably remain owners of the land. This may injure the pride of the Turks and anger the more nationalistic Armenians but this it the stark reality. Of the 10-20 Kurds who live in Turkey, many regards themselves as Turks or work for their Turkish masters but there is enough of a significant Kurdish population that does not that formations such as the PKK will always be a factor and never been wiped out. In fact, I suggest the problem will only grow worse for Turkey and the Turks indeed deserve it.

You can only subjugate, trash, malign, and xxxxxle on people for so long until they decide enough is enough. The PKK was not created in a vacuum. And he Turkish nightmare of a Kurdish state seems to be a growing reality despite their best efforts to thwart one. Their Kurdish cousins in present day Turkey will increasingly want to join that state.


I would say the land is (what is now Eastern Turkey) is not better off in Turkish hands (are you implying that Turkey has been a righteous and just owner??? Has the land where Armenians, Assyrians and others once lived prospered under Turkish control?) as the much of the indigenous population has been slaughtered and driven away. How noble. In any case, has holding on to that land and oppressing the people there made Turkey a stronger nation? Or has it made the Turks even more paranoid?

At the moment, the Turks more or less control the region, mostly under martial law, but I see that changing eventually over the next few decades as the Kurds continue to assert themselves. Southern Kurdistan is just the spark.

[Joseph]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071113/ts_nm/turkey_iraq_dc

Check out the photos accompanying the article.

[1.5 million]

I agree with Joseph. Even though I am normally very much opposed to rewarding ill gotten gains I feel that this would be more in line with the current ethnic constitution of the population and would likely conform more to the wishes of people living there. As it was with the Armenians - the Turks have shown no ability to properly govern these lands - they are abusive to the people living there - as they were with the Armenians in these parts - thus for Turkey to keep these lands is a greater evil IMO. And I believe that Turkey still requires punishment for the crimes it has commited and this would be at least one step to dishing a bit out. I also don;'t ever see any significant numbers of Armenians living in these parts - but perhaps the Kurds would understand that it might be in their best interest to invite Armenians back and offer them a stake in this region (for their know how as well as their ability to invest etc) which was once theirs and that some sort of confederaation might be achievable in the future between Armenia and some possible Kurdistan.

[Gavur]

I reserve my opininion until all the hidden Armenians and Kurds have the freedom of speech!

[hitite]

I would say the land is (what is now Eastern Turkey) is not better off in Turkish hands (are you implying that Turkey has been a righteous and just owner??? Has the land where Armenians, Assyrians and others once lived prospered under Turkish control?) as the much of the indigenous population has been slaughtered and driven away. How noble. In any case, has holding on to that land and oppressing the people there made Turkey a stronger nation? Or has it made the Turks even more paranoid?

At the moment, the Turks more or less control the region, mostly under martial law, but I see that changing eventually over the next few decades as the Kurds continue to assert themselves. Southern Kurdistan is just the spark.

I wouldnt say that these lands are or have been better off in Turkish hands, we cannot know how it would have been if they were in the hands of say Barzani, the Kurdish tribe leader. However its wierd to see all these psuedo maps everywhere, maps of Kurdistan, Western Armenia, Pontus Greek, Megali Greek Empire maps and all that xxxx. There is also the map of Turan that covers most of the known world but I dont see that map much any more even though I would like to see it more since I see a lot of humour in it.

God forbid, if Turkey did dissintegrate Kurds would have the upper hand in the region and the dream of a Great Armenia does seem to be getting more and more distant despite the possibility of there being Armenians in hibernation, as per Gavurs comment. An Israeli-type comeback to the promised land also seems highly unlikely. If Turks go Kurds will come and given their rather restricted experience in governing and the massive feudal and tribal conflicts they have among them I forsee Kurd killing Kurd in the thousands. Their inner conflicts will be supported by neighoring countries, none of which want a Kurdish state in the region and other changes in regional status quo.

The changing of maps does not happen much via painting, drawing, negotiation and even diplomacy. Maps unfortnately take shape by the spilling of blood, tons of it. The formation of a Kurdistan in the region would mean death and as far as I can see, ridding myself of any patriotic feelings and just looking at the people around me, there are millions of Turks that are willing to die than rather see that happen; we still seem to be better at fighting, killing and dieing than anything else. And the Turks that die will take a good sum of others down with them.

A Greater Kurdistan also encompassses parts of Iran, Syria and Azerbaycan and possibly small parts of Armenia. Even if some of these countries got involved together with US and Russian intervention I see a World War coming out of it. This does sound like a conspiracy but so does the idea of a Kurdistan as in the above map.

[Gavur]

As long as I can have unfettered acsess to my lands, Kurds can be my security guards.

[Yegoyan]

I'm all for a Kurdistan in what is Northern Iraq. As far as Eastern Turkey is concerned, the Kurds are realistically the majority is most regions so any claims Armenians make towards those regions, though deserved, are all for naught. Over decades the Kurdish population has exploded and it does not look like that trend is going to change any time soon. Unfortunately barring some miracle, Armenians will probably never control their original homeland ever again. It's sad but true. Or only hope is that the Turks keep on pursuing their racist policies vis a vis the Kurds until a boiling point is reached and there is a civil war, which may very well happen. We can hope that when the area falls under eventual Kurdish control we will have magnanimous relations with the Kurds and they will let Armenians freely travel to our ancient sites and have open borders.

There population growing won't really affect Turks since Turkey has the power not the Kurds. They live in horrible conditions. Bad education lack of historians and scholars specialized in there history and conditions. While Turks are growing too, never will Kurds get it.

[hitite]

As long as I can have unfettered acsess to my lands, Kurds can be my security guards.

Before you say that I advise you look at how Barzani and Talabani came to be where they are and how many ass marks they have on their faces from long years of kissing Turkish and American butt.

I personally see a closer possibility of turkey and armenia opening borders and establishing proper relations rather than waiting for re-drawing of maps and hoping for the kurd to turn out better than the turk. There are tens of thousands of armenians coming to turkey already and many of them are living and working here. Why not try to normalise what has already in a way started.