Interesting Kurdish perspective

[Joseph]

ı know that ı dont know everything. ı know that we are used by some bustards.but ı am sick of tired of this wild world.

it is not different for me ,ergenekon or pkk or kkk!!!. ı am extremely disgusted by terrorizm.in turkey,in ıraq,in israel,everywhere. and ı hate to see some people enjoying terrorizm thinking this helps them. they dont undertsand that terrorizm can hit anybody anytime.

if eu didnt kick us out--only because we are muslims--we would not fall into this deep darkness.

ı am also impressed about your knowlege about turkey. you follow the things better than me. you sound like a turk really...but you dont want real peace deep in your heart ,unlike me. you only want revenge.no?

I understand why you are angry. You are innocent of any crime and I know you are a good person.

The root cause of terrorism is that there are people being oppressed by a brutal majority. Until those in power discontinue the maltreatment of minorities, terrorists will exist anywhere such oppression is manifested.

If Turkey wants to rid itself of terrorism, it will have to eradicate state-sponsored fascism that seems to be supported by the majority of its citizens. The cause and cure are the Turks themselves, are they not?

[Alexandros]

Joseph`s post is spot on.However I have to admit - even though I`m Greek - that there was a time when Greek governments(or groups within the Greek governments) supported PKK politically.If it also was militarily i don`t know.But when Ocalan was caught in the Greek embassy in Kenya with a fake Greek Cypriot passport I think it became too obvious what was going on. So from that time Greek governments stopped it`s political support to PKK which was the right thing to do.In my opinion i think that Greece should never have given any kind of support to PKK.It was a huge mistake by Greece and I can understand the frustration in Turkey for this.

But as lal said, if the Kurds wants more rights they should fight politically for their cause instead of killing innocent people.But there`s no doubt that the Kurds are being oppressed in Turkey and I can understand their frustration.The Turkish military has done horrible things against the Kurds in south eastern Turkey and Turkey`s state policy against the Kurds has been discrimatory to say at least even though I do acknowledge that AKP tried to give more rights to the Kurds - because of Turkey`s EU ambition - there`s still a lot more to do to improve the Kurds rights in Turkey.

[Joseph]

Actually, its the Turks and the deep-state that give the PKK its support.

1. Turkey continually threatens, humiliates, and maltreats its minorities {Kurds, Alevis, Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians} so in essence gives the terrorists reasons to exist. Terrorists are not created in a vacuum; people who are not oppressed do not join such organizations willing to kill and die.


2. Shadowy, clandestine groups such as Ergenekon are in collusion with the PKK. More and more information is coming out regarding the relations between the PKK, Turkish Hizbullah, gangsters, IP, and the Turkish military.
They all rely on each other to keep Turkey backward, paranoid, nationalistic, etc. Turks tend to blame others outside of Turkey for the internal problems it has created for itself since it's inception.

As for the latest bombings, I'd be willing to bet that it was a group linked with Ergenekon that was responsible. Why?

1. It would not serve the PKK's interest to hit a civilian area full of conservative, working class, pro-AKP muslims who are not necessarily sympathetic to the devout Kemalists. The PKK was also very quick to deny their involvement which is something they would not do. They take credit only when credit is due.

2. It was used by Eregenkon to deflect attention away from the ultra-nationalists and pressure/warn the AKP. This ongoing fight between the AK and the military is going to get more complicated and maybe even more violent.

3. Eregenkon/Turkish Gladio has done this before in others locations namely Diyarbakir. They have used terrorists to do their bidding for years. Most Turks turned a blind eye because they were told or at least thought that deep-state was keeping them safe. The chickens have come home to roost.

Read the bold:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=148721

ANDREW FINKEL [email protected] Columnists

Ergenekon -- has the coup already taken place?

The defendants in the Ergenekon conspiracy -- journalists and generals and those with links to organized crime -- are accused of trying to weaken and manipulate successive governments with an arsenal of dirty and often violent tricks. The prosecution is regarded as a vendetta by some against those trying to uphold the official state ideology, but by large sections of the press it is being portrayed as nothing less than a long overdue exorcism of the "deep" state and a restoration of the rule of law. Yet the long list of suspects and the very scale of the trial is in itself confusing, and it is difficult to know just how deeply Ergenekon permeated Turkish society. Are we dealing with a well-organized conspiracy and a well-disciplined secret society, or is Ergenekon a diffuse al-Qaeda-like structure, more of a network that includes people who might have been sympathetic to ends without necessarily being prepared to justify its means.
My own sense of bewilderment is best reflected by two interviews I conducted over a long period of time. One took place only last year and was with someone who is now under lock as a principal ringleader in Ergenekon. The other took place some 15 years previously and was with Prime Minister Tansu Çiller, less than a month after she first took office.

Even before his arrest, Col. Fikri Karadağ was portrayed in the headlines of the Radikal newspaper as the leader of a paramilitary group. His Kuvayi Milli organization reveled in Ku Klux Klan-style rituals (or rather those belonging to the early 19th century Committee of Union and Progress), like swearing an oath on the Quran and a revolver ("The gun only fired blanks," he told me.) His group was busy recruiting members in cities like Mersin, banking on the resentment of in-migration of Kurdish refugees from the conflict in the Southeast. When we met in İstanbul, he was surrounded by attendants in blue uniforms who looked not so much like members of an irregular army, but the flight staff of a budget Ukrainian airline. Despite the huge pictures of Atatürk in his office, it was clear that his notion of secularism was not so much anti-clerical as anti-Arab. It was the beards and the headscarves and the non-Western garb that he didn't like, not religiosity. We got into a pointless argument over whether the Prophet Muhammad was an Arab or (as he insisted) the member of a Turkish tribe. I remember thinking as I got up to leave that he was mad as a box of frogs. Which is not to prejudge whether he was harmless.

Certainly many of his prejudices against Europe or America and foreigners in general (forbidding them to own property, for example) flourish among the pietistic types he claimed to hate. Yet it still seems impossible to me he could have managed to take control of modern Turkey. I could imagine him seizing a radio station only to find that no one listened to it anymore.

Some 15 years ago, I had the first interview for a foreign publication with the newly chosen Prime Minister Çiller. Mrs. Çiller's period in office was accompanied by a harsh escalation of conflict in the Southeast. But this was not foreshadowed from the way she conducted herself during her first fortnight in office. The Kurdish issue was hardly her first priority. She kept referring to it as "Southeast Asia," as if her mind were still stuck in the days when Vietnam was in the news. Yet there had been a Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)-attributed attack on the day of her very first Cabinet meeting in which 28 villagers died, and by the time I saw her she had already reversed a commitment to allow Kurdish-language broadcast and education. It seemed no coincidence that an attempt by a government to solve the Kurdish issue through liberal-minded reforms was frustrated by a "controlled" breakdown in public order. In the weeks and months that followed, Mrs. Çiller became more hawkish than her predecessors. Was this Ergenekon reining her in? If so, this was not Ergenekon plotting a coup, but warding off challenges to its already established authority.

And only two days ago, two bombs exploded on an ordinary street in İstanbul, leaving 17 people dead and scores injured. It was a pointless strike against decent people. It is impossible to think it would bring anyone to power -- unless of course they are already there.

[Joseph]

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=148889

Ergenekon aimed at Turk-Kurd conflict

Many provocative incidents attempting to fan Turkish-Kurdish conflict took place at Mersin University last year. Ergenekon, an organization that allegedly planned to overthrow the government by force, was behind a significant number of incidents and demonstrations designed specifically to incite a Turkish-Kurdish conflict, an indictment against the organization has noted.

According to documents seized during raids in the investigation that made their way into the indictment, Ergenekon, the name of the criminal organization, chose the southern city of Mersin as the "pilot" site to start the project of fanning a Kurdish and Turkish conflict that they hoped would eventually render Turkey unadministrable, after which they planned to call for military rule.

Ergenekon -- 46 of whose alleged members are currently in jail awaiting trial -- is being accused of a large number of unsolved political murders and attacks previously attributed to terrorist organizations of various political leanings in the nearly 2,500-page indictment. Page after page, the prosecutor documents evidence suggesting that Ergenekon was behind a series of high-profile political assassinations that occurred over the past two decades, such as that of two secularist journalists, the head of a business conglomerate who was shot dead by militants of the extreme-left Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) and many others. The prosecutor also claims in the indictment that the group has links with other terrorist groups, such as Turkish Hizbullah and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK).

More and more allegations have surfaced as journalists read further into the indictment, made public last Friday, when it was formally accepted by the court. The attempt to trigger an ethnic conflict between Turks and Kurds is only one of the many efforts of the group at social engineering to mold the country in accordance with its own agenda. The group's main purpose was to create conflict, chaos and disorder in the country in order to trigger a military intervention against the ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Party) government, although evidence indicates that the group had tried to take over other governments prior to the AK Party.

The indictment claims that Ergenekon provided terrorist organizations, particularly the PKK, with monetary and logistic support. It notes that the group not only funded the PKK, which has been responsible for a number of attacks on Turkey's troops, but also worked with the PKK in the drug trade. Other activities of the group included sending members to funerals of martyred soldiers to cause agitation, according to the indictment.

Documents seized during the raids show that the National Forces Association, led by retired Col. Fikri Karadağ, and the Association for the Union of Patriotic Forces (VKGB), led by Taner Ünal, actively worked to fan Turkish-Kurdish conflict. The indictment has a chapter called “The Purpose of [Ergenekon’s] Civil Society Organizations,” which states: “In past years some hit men in the National Forces Association, a part of the Ergenekon terrorist organization, had planned to stage attacks against our Kurdish citizens to trigger a Turkish and Kurdish conflict which would serve, ultimately, the primary purpose of the organization to create an atmosphere of chaos and conflict in the entire country.”

The indictment cites a remark from Karadağ, who said during an oath ceremony for new members of the group, “We may fall or we may die for this cause,” referring to the fight against Kurdish separatism. The speech was made in Mersin, one of the cities with the fastest growing Kurdish population in the country. A transcript of a phone conversation that is included in the indictment between Ergenekon suspects Muhammet Yüce and Karadağ conveys a similar message. Yüce told Karadağ, “I will bomb the Democratic Society Party [DTP],” referring to an office building of the DTP. Karadağ replied: “Don’t do anything without my knowledge. [Otherwise] you could give them the upper hand. We will do it when we want to, not when they want.” In the same conversation, Karadağ stated that he had advised two people having problems with their Kurdish neighbors “not to surrender” because his organization would “do everything necessary in a deliberate manner.”

The indictment contains the transcript of another phone conversation between Karadağ and a person named Nazmi on Oct. 12, 2007. This transcript conveys how Ergenekon views Turkey’s Kurdish citizens. In the transcript, Nazmi asked, “What will happen with the situation of these Kurds?” Karadağ replied: “Everyone who betrays this nation will see trouble. They don’t have a place in this country. They will be kicked out of here and go to hell. All of them will go to hell. You know, the best of these [Kurds] are the dead ones.”

Mersin: a pilot site for social engineering

The indictment indicates that the VKGB spread the word in Mersin that “the PKK has taken over the city” and called on all Yörüks -- people descended from nomadic groups -- to wage war against the Kurds. The VKGB’s Mersin chapter, led by Mesut Sezer, made great efforts to provoke the Yörük villages, whose people are known for their respect for nationalistic values. In a visit to promote the association to a Yörük village, the indictment quotes Sezer as asking the villagers: “Unfortunately, we can no longer call Diyarbakır a Turkish city, can we? I ask you, can we call Mersin that? No, we can’t. You will not be able to call Mersin a Turkish city in two years. This is a war of independence, dear friends.” Secret witness number 17, whose identity is protected for security reasons, testified to the prosecutor that the VKGB had ordered two Turkish flags burned during a demonstration to provoke people.

Common goals with the PKK

The ultimate purpose of the Ergenekon and PKK terrorist organizations are the same: to provoke a Turkish-Kurdish conflict which would eventually create an atmosphere of chaos. The indictment notes: “The separatist terrorist organization has the ultimate purpose of founding an independent, united Kurdistan, and this is why it has been promoting ethnic separatism and has been trying to create a Turkish-Kurdish conflict for a long time. The Ergenekon organization has been using various strategies to engineer a Turkish-Kurdish conflict in Turkey and works to divide the Republic of Turkey with these plans.”

Separatist campaign from ‘Turkish Left’

The Turkish Left magazine, an ultranationalist weekly at whose offices Ergenekon members came together frequently, has been working actively to create ethnic separatism in the country. In December 2007, the magazine started a campaign titled “I shop from Turks; my money does not go to the PKK.” In the 165th issue of the magazine columnist Gökçe Fırat sarcastically noted, “Oh, our Kurdish brothers would never support the PKK.” He then wrote, “Of course, not according to us but according to many other people this is the situation in our country: Kurds in Turkey are not brothers of the Turks but opponents. The Kurds are the funding source of the PKK.”

[lal]

I understand why you are angry. You are innocent of any crime and I know you are a good person.

The root cause of terrorism is that there are people being oppressed by a brutal majority. Until those in power discontinue the maltreatment of minorities, terrorists will exist anywhere such oppression is manifested.

If Turkey wants to rid itself of terrorism, it will have to eradicate state-sponsored fascism that seems to be supported by the majority of its citizens. The cause and cure are the Turks themselves, are they not?

one more time,thanks for your nice tone. ı will be glad to write here as long as people like you responds.

even if it is a reality that there are illegal mafia kind organizations inside the state who provocates kurdish problem by bombings and murders ,there is also an independent pkk terrorist organization who also bombs and kills randomly. we dont know which one does which. maybe they really work together.but ı simply cant understand how can they do this. how can you kill somebody you dont know for whatever the reason is.ı am against USA s politics, but whatever the reason was, 9.11 was a terrible thing. ı condemn all the muslims who enjoyed this murders.

ı dont believe that terrorizm necessaraly is the result of brutal oppressions.maybe terrorizm uses this thinking in the beginning.kurdish terrorists ,turkish partners ,european supportes are all working together and making billions of dollars from drug and weapon deals. it is a real dirty game. ı dont think PKK is working for kurds rights at all.

but it is turkeys weakness allowing all these things. why this doesnt happen in other countries.

also you are right that there is a single kind of islam and nationalist fachizm in turkey. although ı am an atheist, ı cant easily say this to everybody. they wont like this at all. ı also have a friend who believes in god,but she dont like the traditions of islam , and she is a secret christian. she goes to churches regularly. she thinks orthodox christianity is a wonderful tradition. when she try to tell this to her husband, he hates it. because just like an ordinary turk he thinks turk becomes a greek or armenian if she or he becomes a christian.
but in reality my friend loves turkey but not islam. we turks are obsessed by arabic islam. we have much better beliefs like alevi or sufizm, but for some reason wahhabi islam is killing us. ı blame everything bad happining here on arab cultural fachizm. ı cant understand how and why stupit girls cover all their body and smell terrible by sweating and their husbands swim in the sea and make sex with russians. solution is in the death of wahhabi islam.this has caused armenian genocide . greeks and armenians and kurds and turks should have stayed as a big,single country with great history and without wahhabi islam.

lal

[hitite]

The "conspiracy theory" many people in Turkey were mouthing is slowly showing signs of reality. This whole PKK-MIT-CIA-EREGENEKON-TURKISH MILITARY-HEZBOLLAH-IRAN-USA-ASALA-EU-GREEK realtionship is just normal. These are all actors in the neverending money-power game that has been going on since the beginning of mankind. Lal you may question why it does not happen in other places but you should not forget the fact that the playground can today be Anatolia and the middle east but yesterday it was Europe where millions lost their lives and tomorrow it could be somewhere else. No place is immune of this. Expecting a terrorist organisation to have clear cut goals with no realtions to competing or even opposite factions, a somewhat "clean" murdering squad is unthinkable. PKK has had realtions with Greeks, Armenians, American, French, Belgians and a lot more because they generate money through smuggling billions of dollars worth of Afghan opium - heroine to the rest of the world and they need a certain amount of power, maybe not much, to keep this factory running. However the real money makers are the people who have employed PKK to run this business and I guess we are all seeing who those people are.

[bell-the-cat]

1. It would not serve the PKK's interest to hit a civilian area full of conservative, working class, pro-AKP muslims who are not necessarily sympathetic to the devout Kemalists. The PKK was also very quick to deny their involvement which is something they would not do. They take credit only when credit is due.

2. It was used by Eregenkon to deflect attention away from the ultra-nationalists and pressure/warn the AKP. This ongoing fight between the AK and the military is going to get more complicated and maybe even more violent.

3. Eregenkon/Turkish Gladio has done this before in others locations namely Diyarbakir. They have used terrorists to do their bidding for years. Most Turks turned a blind eye because they were told or at least thought that deep-state was keeping them safe. The chickens have come home to roost.

I was watching the immediate chaotic aftermath of the explosions shown on various Turkish TV stations as it was happening. It wasn't until the fırst half hour past that they were saying bomb explosions - before that it was just 'explosion'. The first 'news' station that claimed PKK involvement was Fox News, within about an hour. As a news station it is every bit as bad as its US 'Faux News' equivalent.

[bell-the-cat]

solution is in the death of wahhabi islam.this has caused armenian genocide . greeks and armenians and kurds and turks should have stayed as a big,single country with great history and without wahhabi islam.

lal

The degree of the involvement of Islam in the Genocide seems to be the big taboo subject amongst all serious writers & researchers on the subject - so I don't know how correct your statement is, lal.

[chinchilla]

The degree of the involvement of Islam in the Genocide seems to be the big taboo subject amongst all serious writers & researchers on the subject - so I don't know how correct your statement is, lal.

Have you read Vahakn Dadrian's book on the genocide? It is mentioned.

[lal]

The degree of the involvement of Islam in the Genocide seems to be the big taboo subject amongst all serious writers & researchers on the subject - so I don't know how correct your statement is, lal.

hello bell,

well,obviously ı m not thinking scientificly.ı only write what ı feel. but you see, sunni, wahhabi islam is an imperialist ideology trying to expand islam all over the world . just like evangalist christianity. but wahhabi islam is far worse than christianity, because it also orders muslims to live socially as it is written in kuran for ever. women are inferiour in the kuran. you loose half of the population from the beginning.this is why you have culturally and economicly underdeveloped populations. which islam country is developed without oil? you also cant have democracy because you have to live according to the orders of allah. this is not suitable for different cultures to live together. so when ottomans were powerful enough , they just let the different ones survive by taking high taxes from them and using them in commerce, arts etc. but once they lost the power, they became good wahhabi muslims and destroyed the different ones.


like ı said before,greeks and armenians and turks think turks are a different race, originally from central asia,but in reality turks are racially very close to armenians and greeks. the reason why turks stayed as culturally much lower than them was only islams teachings. islam blocades the minds of humans.

even today and after the republics start,wahhabbi islams domination goes on.
islamic mind never forgives. so armenians can wait for ever for the apology.

ı repeat one more time. only and only if turkey can become a real secular democracy with no official support to wahhabi islam, only if some turks can openly start to call themselves atheists,alevis sufis, and agnostics in public. or if some can convert to christianity but dont become a greek or american,than the chance to face with the history can be possible. otherwise ı can bet on my life that turks can never ever accept the genocide till the end of humankind.