How to Answer

[Nick_A]

Hi All

I recently I sent out some private invites to the discussion "The Armenian
Genocide: The Struggle for Recognition" to begin on another site 7/30. In order to create some interest, I began a preliminary thread. One response is really a classic. I cannot believe how anyone can believe that a solid future could have lies as its foundation. Without openly admitting what we are capable of and what has been done, it is impossible for anything but a repeat of the past in one form or another. That is why recognition is essential. We have to honestly admit it and feel the collective shame of genocides and in this case, the Armenian Genocide, for humanity to learn from it. Yet I read the following response:

The Armenian genocide happened at the end of the Ottoman empire, ie. almost 100 years ago and not by the political predecessors of modern Turkey. It was performed in the name of a dead monarchy.

Why make a fuzz about it today?

Why stress the relationship of nations in building a harmonic future with issues of such distant past?

Should French and Germans hate each other because they fought bitter wars?

Are the tensions between China and Japan helpful?

Should Cambodians refuse to reconciliate.

Who keeps insisting on the relevance of long past actions only shows that he has no interest in working for a better and peaceful future.

Specifically: Armenia today is an independent nation. It would be well advised to work on good relationship with its neighbours for its own benefit.

Note: The historic recount of the Armenian genocide is done exclusively by Armenians from the Armenian diasporah. In fact it is very badly documented and Turks claim that Armenians are hugely exagerating the figures.

Being as it is and considering all the above, I can fully understant that others want to put the story to rest. As with Israel, exiled Armenians don't necessarily work for the benefit of the nation of Armenia but rather for pepping up their own family history account.

Scary! How does one reply?

[chinchilla]

There really are some cruel and wicked people out there. But in this case I think the person was ignorant.

[Joseph]

Hi All

I recently I sent out some private invites to the discussion "The Armenian
Genocide: The Struggle for Recognition" to begin on another site 7/30. In order to create some interest, I began a preliminary thread. One response is really a classic. I cannot believe how anyone can believe that a solid future could have lies as its foundation. Without openly admitting what we are capable of and what has been done, it is impossible for anything but a repeat of the past in one form or another. That is why recognition is essential. We have to honestly admit it and feel the collective shame of genocides and in this case, the Armenian Genocide, for humanity to learn from it. Yet I read the following response:



Scary! How does one reply?

Feel free to poke around this forum and paraphrase from our responses.

[Nick_A]

Hi Chinchilla

I agree which is what makes it so scary. At least when the propogandists post, I understand political conditioning and the reason for intentional deception. But as you say, this is just ignorance.

Thanks Joseph, I will be snooping about for some pearls of wisdom.

People as a whole do not understand the importance of admitting the Amenian Genocide for what it is. Regardless of good intentions of political compromise, they fail to see that without zero tolerance of genocide, it will repeat. If you two and anyone else is into a fascinating read, digest the following responses to a BBC question on days of rememberance. See how many do not appreciate the magnitude of the word genocide and for this reason is worth special attention.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1774160.stm

[Steph]

There really are some cruel and wicked people out there. But in this case I think the person was ignorant.

Indeed there are wicked and cruel peolple out there but this does not presuppose or deny their ignorance. Please stop being so tolerant of deniers, deniers are what they are and will in all truth remain what they are, if they post on any website, they have a certain amount of intelligence....no?....so, they should be able to ascertain for themselves what is true and what isn't.........no?

My truth, like it or not, is that the Denial is as destructive as the action, anyone who participates in denial is as guilty as the perpetratators in their actions.

Denialists will not change through PC discourse on websites, unfortunately.

We are near the time of direct action, again, to move these debates into the public and general domain.

[Steph]

Hi Chinchilla



If you two and anyone else is into a fascinating read, digest the following responses to a BBC question on days of rememberance. See how many do not appreciate the magnitude of the word genocide and for this reason is worth special attention.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1774160.stm

Genocide is a word that is fast becoming diluted from potential overuse, groups are screaming "Genocide" when in reality the crimes committed against them are insidious and vile, but do not constitute genocide.

We should perhaps open a thread to discuss crimes claimed as genocide which do not meet the necessary criteria. Incidentally, my criteria could and does differ from Raphael Lemke's.

[1.5 million]

Here ya go Nick - feel free to use this response...

The Armenian genocide happened at the end of the Ottoman empire, ie. almost 100 years ago and not by the political predecessors of modern Turkey. It was performed in the name of a dead monarchy.

Its obvious - with yourself as an example - the shortfalls of your approach to ignoring history - you fail to understand and appreciate it. A child who never learns is normally classified as mentally retarded. Whats your excuse? BTW - your supposition that the Armenian genocide is/was an historical event relevent to the old Ottoman Empire but not to the Republic of Turkey today is faulty in its entirely. If you understood the process and actors involved and how it and they morphed into the current Republic of Turkey you would be embarrased at your stupidity. BTW2 - we don't take direction/advice from morons

Why make a fuzz about it today?

Do you find mass murder to be "cute"? FU asehole (kapiche?)

Why stress the relationship of nations in building a harmonic future with issues of such distant past?

Hey your right space dude - BTW ludes, ecstacy, meth...whats your secret?

Should French and Germans hate each other because they fought bitter wars?

I would surmise that if Germany was still ruled by the Nazi party or those who still revered Hitler and who continued to justify the invasion of France and who placed the blame for all the bloodshed and destruction on France that French and Germans might not now be getting along so well. Your fatal mistake is that you assume that the conflict between Turks and Armenians has been resolved and that through the concillitory words and actions by the Turks that Armenians can now forgive and move on. As this has not happened your point is moot.

Are the tensions between China and Japan helpful?

Helpful? To who/for what/define? Let me ask you - if Japan refuses to acknowledge (and apologize for) their aggressive role in WWII and the many atrocities they commited and if they hadn't denounced their militarism and aggressive militarist past - would you be criticizing the Chinese for their calls for justice, and for their continued denouncement of Japan. Would you think that Chinese people would just let the matter drop and move on?

Should Cambodians refuse to reconciliate.

Perhaps they should just invite Pol Pot back to rule the country eh? And yeah - just wipe the slate clean - in fact no one should even be allowed to speak of those times and what occured then - don't you agree? We can just pass a law to make it illegal under penalty of death - then everyone can live happily ever after...

Who keeps insisting on the relevance of long past actions only shows that he has no interest in working for a better and peaceful future.

You obviously haven't got a clue. Are we to take the baseless pronoucements of the clueless as the basis for our opinions and positions? I think not. Just because you see it this way does not make it so. You are so off base in the foundation of your position to make it entirely laughable and irrelevant. Come back to us after you have read a few books and graduated from grade school.

Specifically: Armenia today is an independent nation. It would be well advised to work on good relationship with its neighbours for its own benefit.

Again - who is it that is giving this advice and on what basis? Or is just merely a threat? By the way I am an American and I'm resonably educated in history and politics - by what right and with what foundation are insinuating that you know better then I what I should think and how I should feel?

Note: The historic recount of the Armenian genocide is done exclusively by Armenians from the Armenian diasporah. In fact it is very badly documented and Turks claim that Armenians are hugely exagerating the figures.

Boy do you have have a lot to learn - or not. As this statement of yours is so far from being the truth I will just leave it at that. Your assertions are entirely false. The Armenian Genocide is incredibly documented from non-Armenian souces - from actual direct observers and by an incredible array of independently corrborated documentation. If this position reflects your true level of knowledge and belief you really have some problems. You really need to get out more you know. And I'm quite sick and tired of ignorant morons like you preaching to me and others when you have absolutly no clue what you are talking about.

Being as it is and considering all the above, I can fully understant that others want to put the story to rest. As with Israel, exiled Armenians don't necessarily work for the benefit of the nation of Armenia but rather for pepping up their own family history account.

Yes that must be it. xxxxhead. "Oh oh...de de de...being as it is...pft pft...I must say....as I know all of the facts...as my denying 101 teacher related to me when I was 10...er...um...well since I know it all...cough cough...I will tell you what to think...er.." etc

[Joseph]

Its obvious - with yourself as an example - the shortfalls of your approach to ignoring history - you fail to understand and appreciate it. A child who never learns is normally classified as mentally retarded. Whats your excuse? BTW - your supposition that the Armenian genocide is/was an historical event relevent to the old Ottoman Empire but not to the Republic of Turkey today is faulty in its entirely. If you understood the process and actors involved and how it and they morphed into the current Republic of Turkey you would be embarrased at your stupidity. BTW2 - we don't take direction/advice from morons



Do you find mass murder to be "cute"? FU asehole (kapiche?)



Hey your right space dude - BTW ludes, ecstacy, meth...whats your secret?



I would surmise that if Germany was still ruled by the Nazi party or those who still revered Hitler and who continued to justify the invasion of France and who placed the blame for all the bloodshed and destruction on France that French and Germans might not now be getting along so well. Your fatal mistake is that you assume that the conflict between Turks and Armenians has been resolved and that through the concillitory words and actions by the Turks that Armenians can now forgive and move on. As this has not happened your point is moot.



Helpful? To who/for what/define? Let me ask you - if Japan refuses to acknowledge (and apologize for) their aggressive role in WWII and the many atrocities they commited and if they hadn't denounced their militarism and aggressive militarist past - would you be criticizing the Chinese for their calls for justice, and for their continued denouncement of Japan. Would you think that Chinese people would just let the matter drop and move on?



Perhaps they should just invite Pol Pot back to rule the country eh? And yeah - just wipe the slate clean - in fact no one should even be allowed to speak of those times and what occured then - don't you agree? We can just pass a law to make it illegal under penalty of death - then everyone can live happily ever after...



You obviously haven't got a clue. Are we to take the baseless pronoucements of the clueless as the basis for our opinions and positions? I think not. Just because you see it this way does not make it so. You are so off base in the foundation of your position to make it entirely laughable and irrelevant. Come back to us after you have read a few books and graduated from grade school.



Again - who is it that is giving this advice and on what basis? Or is just merely a threat? By the way I am an American and I'm resonably educated in history and politics - by what right and with what foundation are insinuating that you know better then I what I should think and how I should feel?



Boy do you have have a lot to learn - or not. As this statement of yours is so far from being the truth I will just leave it at that. Your assertions are entirely false. The Armenian Genocide is incredibly documented from non-Armenian souces - from actual direct observers and by an incredible array of independently corrborated documentation. If this position reflects your true level of knowledge and belief you really have some problems. You really need to get out more you know. And I'm quite sick and tired of ignorant morons like you preaching to me and others when you have absolutly no clue what you are talking about.



Yes that must be it. xxxxhead. "Oh oh...de de de...being as it is...pft pft...I must say....as I know all of the facts...as my denying 101 teacher related to me when I was 10...er...um...well since I know it all...cough cough...I will tell you what to think...er.." etc

1.5 prefers the subtle aproach

[Nick_A]

I have to agree with the 1.5 approach.. I also know it would be rejected on several sites for laguage etc.

Lets face it gang, we have the responsibility for getting the message out which means as much as this ignorance hurts, we have to touch those lurkers wh are afraid to post or to even think. We have to help then think through expressions of common sense. It is possible that people could become shamed into agreement.

By laying the facts out on the Armenian Genocide in the context of the human horror that genocide is, I cannot see how a person who is not morally dead not feel a certain shame if they don't stand up with others for what is morally necessary. Is it asking so much for of those feeling this shame to make their voice known to their representatives in the U.S. congress as recognition is now being debated?

[Nick_A]

!.5

First let me say that I don't mention the other site so as to avoid an onslaught of Turkish propoganda. That being said, I looked in and read the reply to that masterpiece you commented so accurately on. Take a deep breath before reading this reply from a Jewish woman:

Thank you W for that sound sense of reasoning about the Armenian genocide.

It was long overdue.

I know this stuff hurts. How cold can they get? If you want to join that site and give her hell, I couldn't blame you and as Armenian you sure have the right. You may get kicked off the site for being your normal outspoken self. Don't mention me since I'm organizing the dialogue group and want to do more than just curse out an ignorant Jewish woman.

So if you want to know where this stupidity is taking place, send me a PM or ask Joseph since I am sending him a link as well. Why should we be the only ones with an urge to vomit after reading such garbage.