Learned this guy good...so was banned of course

[1.5 million]

http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/european-parliament-not-willing-to-recognize-armenian-genocide/

I didn't get into the discussion until it was well underway- but I destoyed his contention of an Armenian rebellion/revolt with Armenians killing masses of Turks justifying the Genocide (and equating it and Armenian actions). My last number of posts were removed. When I get some time I will add them here to give you an idea why he was so threatened.

I post as THOTH btw.

And I would suggest others jump in but it is rather futile I'm afraid - you will just be nbanned and your posts deleted.

[imported_Fadix]

Three of his advertisers are Turkish, some of his blogger references are Turks, 3 of his limited numbers of news agencies references in his site are Turks. One of his co is stationed in Turkey, the other is a Turkish woman living in the US. He is fianced to a Turk and they expect to move in Turkey to live there.

In short, he is a waste of time. Pat has a site which is advertised by him, and Pat will do everything as far as leaking his @ss so this continue the way it is, Connelly is probably a Turk passing as an American.

[Gavur]

A couple of newhire's for the Turkish denial campaign, since the bill passed Oct. 10th, overnight cyberspace carpetbeggers and snakeoil salesman.

[Joseph]

Three of his advertisers are Turkish, some of his blogger references are Turks, 3 of his limited numbers of news agencies references in his site are Turks. One of his co is stationed in Turkey, the other is a Turkish woman living in the US. He is fianced to a Turk and they expect to move in Turkey to live there.

In short, he is a waste of time. Pat has a site which is advertised by him, and Pat will do everything as far as leaking his @ss so this continue the way it is, Connelly is probably a Turk passing as an American.

Connolly is actually Murad Gumen. He posts in every single comment sections or forum related to the Genocide. Blogian was able to identify him. The woman who finances the site, Meltem Birkegren is the owner of the Turkish Digest is also a member of the ATAA I believe. The site was site up primarily for Turkish propaganda and Islamic apologists.

[Zane]

This is actually a respose for "Learned this guy good...so was banned of course," except that that thread was locked. I can understand the desire to debate people like MVDG, but is it really wise? I mean, people like him have all the cards in their favor; they can can delete comments at will, they can direct the conversation as they wish, and they have the additional credibility of being site hosts. I don't think you can actually have a intellectual conversation, I've tried with Murad Gumen, but ultimately failed. Conversations with denialists are always reduced to... "Armenians betrayed the magnamonious Ottoman Empire and got their comeuppance." I have come to the conclusion that merely debating the issue with denialists like Gumen and MVDG gives them undue credibility, and that we should ignore them like we do other quacks.

[1.5 million]

I fully understand your point Zane.
Regardless - here is (I think) my initial post on that sight. Not sure what i did with the rest (that were removed) -

As GaylenV states above in Post 149 - there is no contesting the methodical state-sponsored and largely successful attempt to wipe out the Armenian Population of the Ottoman Empire - and this clearly constitutes genocide. The available evidence - from eyewitness testimonials to archival records, transcripts of trials and memoirs of Turkish perpetrators - more then supports this contention - which is also supported by overwhelming numbers of historians and scholars. There is no valid counterargument - those attempted by the few denialist “scholars” are easily defeated. Likewise this claim that because not all Armenians were killed (many survived in Constantinople and such) is irrelevant - as a great many Jews were sparred by the Germans for various reasons or otherwise survived WWII. A great deal of the discussion here from those questioning or denying the facts/reality of the Armenian Genocide - including that of the host - are but pure speculation - based upon ignorance.

To accurately comment on the fact and the complexities of this issue and this period one really has to know the details and the causation and understand the environment - prior to during and after this time - and it is clear that our host and other’s commenting here (who deny the Genocide) really just haven’t a clue. There was no “Armenian Revolt” per se - and in fact only isolated resistance (to direct attempts to deport/slaughter). This whole issue of supposed armed Armenian bands roaming the countryside as 5th column troops is incredibly overblown and is based upon Turkish propaganda (which should be viewed exactly the same as Nazi propaganda against the supposedly seditious Jews). The ease at which the Ottoman’s removed, slaughtered and marched Armenian civilians across and about the countryside - often with very few armed escorts - and with not a single reported instance of such a column of Armenians being rescued - is testament to the non-existence of these so called Armenian bands and so-called civil war and such. Much of what is credited to Armenian bands and such are events that occurred decades prior to the war or in the years after the actual genocide. Wartime atrocities did occur - and there were Russian Armenians fighting with the Russians and with the fall of the Tzar (1917) there was a breakdown of order and control and there were Armenian units who acted to defend Russian Armenia and some of these did kill innocent Turks and destroy villages and such.

Turkish historian Halil Berketay estimates that Turkish losses from such “revenge attacks” and such - for the entire period from 1915-1923 - attributable to Armenians was likely around 10,000. OK - not an insignificant number (but surely no 500,000+ ridiculously/unrealistically/falsely claimed by certain Turkish sources). So 10,000 versus 1.5 Million (or even “just” 1 million or 800,000 lets say…). Likewise the methodology of killings was far different - and those who enacted the mass killings on the Turkish side did so systematically and with larger intent/purpose. So there is no comparison nor any valid counter based on any justification or even wartime need - these arguments have been entirely countered in academic circles.

And I will leave you with one thought to consider. Would the United States have been justified if - in the 1960s - it decided to round up (and kill) most Black people in the country because the Black Panthers had killed some white people? Think about it.

[Joseph]

I fully understand your point Zane.
Regardless - here is (I think) my initial post on that sight. Not sure what i did with the rest (that were removed) -

As GaylenV states above in Post 149 - there is no contesting the methodical state-sponsored and largely successful attempt to wipe out the Armenian Population of the Ottoman Empire - and this clearly constitutes genocide. The available evidence - from eyewitness testimonials to archival records, transcripts of trials and memoirs of Turkish perpetrators - more then supports this contention - which is also supported by overwhelming numbers of historians and scholars. There is no valid counterargument - those attempted by the few denialist “scholars” are easily defeated. Likewise this claim that because not all Armenians were killed (many survived in Constantinople and such) is irrelevant - as a great many Jews were sparred by the Germans for various reasons or otherwise survived WWII. A great deal of the discussion here from those questioning or denying the facts/reality of the Armenian Genocide - including that of the host - are but pure speculation - based upon ignorance.

To accurately comment on the fact and the complexities of this issue and this period one really has to know the details and the causation and understand the environment - prior to during and after this time - and it is clear that our host and other’s commenting here (who deny the Genocide) really just haven’t a clue. There was no “Armenian Revolt” per se - and in fact only isolated resistance (to direct attempts to deport/slaughter). This whole issue of supposed armed Armenian bands roaming the countryside as 5th column troops is incredibly overblown and is based upon Turkish propaganda (which should be viewed exactly the same as Nazi propaganda against the supposedly seditious Jews). The ease at which the Ottoman’s removed, slaughtered and marched Armenian civilians across and about the countryside - often with very few armed escorts - and with not a single reported instance of such a column of Armenians being rescued - is testament to the non-existence of these so called Armenian bands and so-called civil war and such. Much of what is credited to Armenian bands and such are events that occurred decades prior to the war or in the years after the actual genocide. Wartime atrocities did occur - and there were Russian Armenians fighting with the Russians and with the fall of the Tzar (1917) there was a breakdown of order and control and there were Armenian units who acted to defend Russian Armenia and some of these did kill innocent Turks and destroy villages and such.

Turkish historian Halil Berketay estimates that Turkish losses from such “revenge attacks” and such - for the entire period from 1915-1923 - attributable to Armenians was likely around 10,000. OK - not an insignificant number (but surely no 500,000+ ridiculously/unrealistically/falsely claimed by certain Turkish sources). So 10,000 versus 1.5 Million (or even “just” 1 million or 800,000 lets say…). Likewise the methodology of killings was far different - and those who enacted the mass killings on the Turkish side did so systematically and with larger intent/purpose. So there is no comparison nor any valid counter based on any justification or even wartime need - these arguments have been entirely countered in academic circles.

And I will leave you with one thought to consider. Would the United States have been justified if - in the 1960s - it decided to round up (and kill) most Black people in the country because the Black Panthers had killed some white people? Think about it.

I must say, excellent post 1.5. Berktay is an excellent source btw. I agree with Zane as well, not much we can do against such websites except to try an ignore or make a well stated argument such as yours and then be prepared to have it deleted.