What Turkey must do to become real Democracy

[Greekaiser]

That was the dilemma with greeks because if they had any wisdom, they would have seen that such an enosis would peacefully have come true under EU membership and without any bloodshed and without going thru all these sufferings for both t/c and g/c.

enosis is not so practical but is about greek nationalism
all greeks wanted enosis, even the communists
but the obsession of some to that idea, lead to bloodshed

but there is problem with turkish imperialism also

the turks take advantage of the british interests and the turkish minority for imperiastic reasons
there was even a party called ''Cyprus is turkish'', lead by the moderate t/c leader!! (guess what the hardcore one would believe)

the greatest proof for that is the existence of settlers
turkey brings settlers and most of her people not only they don't have problem but they even agree with that policy (like israel). Generally in turkey there is a silence over that issue. They avoid talking about the issue of settlers and they even claim that these settlers are ''tourists'' or ''workers''!! The settlers are MORE than the turkish cypriots. Turkey occupies cyprus not to protect the rights of t/c but to protect the 'rights' of setters. (legalize them) Turkey is not the only country that does that. Many other also do it (israel from 1948 until today, serbia in bosnia). Greece had also done deportations ...before 80 years...
turkey still does...

I think you are confusing things. If greece exercices its maritime sovereignity rights for these islands, no turkish vessel could even have a free zone to cross due to closeness of the greek islands. Legitimately, greece could be right, however, practically that would make the whole aegean sea greek sovereignity zone.

1)if it is right (it is), you cannot claim u don't like this. Whether its right or not
2)the vessels are permitted ,they just must inform the greek authorities.
3)its about oil also
there is oil in ,lets say, 7 miles from greek islands and 10 miles from turkish shores and turkey pretends that this is ''gray zone''!

I agree that turks must cease their idea of turkish supremacy and disdain for christian people of the region. I am cautiously optimistic about the increasing number of turkish intellectuals, writers coming to terms with turkey's bloody past. I must say that as for the majority, if they insist on sticking to old ideas and denying the past, they will learn one day EVEN at the expense of learning the hard way !

true but the intellectuals are suppressed by turkish state
this is the prob
there are really MANY progressive intellectuals

[Albatros]

Some further comments

Sorry for the late reply. I had problems with internet connection.

If you say that Enosis=akritas then you say that all greeks were members of eoka. All greeks wanted enosis, but how many were involved in the eoka-b?

They had an overwhelming majority against a tiny t/c minority, so even if most of them might not have embraced the idea of enosis using violence, a small percentage would suffice to create havoc.(simple math; a small % of a majority would still be big compared to the same % of a minority.) . So, you can not present g/c enosis aspirations as harmless and innocent.

Turks had also their own terrorist organization.(TMT). TMT also did similar things. Simply, eoka-b was more strong (because of populations), that's why t/c killed were more.

This is like saying , jews too, also killed Nazis during WWII. As a matter of fact, in spite of their obvious disadvantage in weapons against the german army, they indeed did kill Nazis during Warsaw uprising against their deportation to concentration camps. However, in cyprus, the fight was between the oppressor and the oppressed and too unequal just as the fight between t/c and g/c were quite unequal. Tmt also killed g/c and some t/c they thought they were traitors. But at the end of day, how could you compare tmt against eoka under such conditions? The conflict was entirely unequal. Btw, you wouln’t expect the t/c to accept to be slaughtered like a sheep in a slaughter house, would you?

I will elaborate this issue further towards the end of my post

Turks also made many atrocities against innocent g/c of northern cyprus but i see that many turks whether they deny that or they say ''they attacked first.

I suppose you mean turkish army and not t/c ? Apart from a very few isolated cases most of the violence came from eoka prior to 1974. How could you expect members of a much smaller community doing harm to members of a larger community. ? On the other hand, yes during 1974 intervention (call it invasion if you like) turkish army did some atrocities to g/c.

Anyway, I don’t want to dwell on “who killed who” or “who started first” or “our causalities are higher than yours” type of arguments. Such discussions are conducive to nowhere. However as far as Cyprus is concerned all these undeniably point that there is pressing need of solid, permanent and unbreakable agreement between t/c and g/c, for it was them who suffered most, the former prior to 1974, and the latter after, not greece and turkey. Moreover, if such an agreement is to remain uncontestable and unviolated, it should place more emphasis on protecting the rights of the weaker and the under-advantaged one, that is t/c.

You should know that no greek believe that we are saints and you barbarians.

Sadly, still, most of them do.

Do jews hate germans? No.
Then why armenians and greeks hate turks?
hmmm

Did you know that 400000 greeks were killed in WW2? (300000 of hunger)
then why we don't hate the germans?
I will tell you why. Every year germans come in greece ,students many times and they see the memorials of the german occupation of greece.
A student had said 'We cannot believe that our grandfathers did these things. It's shame.'
The germans had regretted. The germans had stopped.

Simple reason: greeks have not lived with germans side-by-side over centuries. german presence in Greece was a one-time event and that was during WWII during which germany attacked almost every European country.

Mussolini’s Italy also attacked Greece during WWII (or a bit earlier I don’t recall the precise date) . But greeks are not in bad terms with italians either because of the same issue above.

Whereas as far as turks are concerned, the truth is that greeks (also armenians) lived under ottoman rule for a very long time and such a long time span of ottoman domination understandably have left a bitterness in greeks against turks . Armenians' hatred is understandbly linked to genocide under Abdulhamit and under CUP.

If you look at political history, you will see that enmities exist particularly between neighboring nations/ communities: pakistanis v.s indians, israelis v.s arabs, irish v.s brits, bosnians v.s serbs, russians v.s chechens and last and not least turks v.s greeks, armenians etc. Is it any wonder why it is so? Have you heard about any animosity between argentinians and swedish or between greeks and danes??

Regarding your reply concerning the treatment of greek patriarches in arabic countries: How many arab/islamic countries exist with greek patriarchs ? Honestly, I don’t know the answer with the exception of Lebanon and Israel (not an arab country). Are there patriarchs in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Eqypt, U.A.E, Omman, Algeria, Maroc etc? And do you have any idea how well dhimmis (non-muslims) are treated there? Try to establish a patriarch in Saudi Arabia and you will see the result. Basically the rights of christians and jews (the latter is almost non-existent) in Islamic countries is still severely restricted because due to the precepts of Koran.

[Albatros]

A policy change from both sides is needed

Turks historically committed many injustices against christian minorities in anatolia.
First, infamous A.G and its denial, then varlik vergisi (property tax levied exclusively on non muslims in 1947).
Then, the great pogrom against greeks in september 1955.
Then, constant harassment against non-muslims, the wave of "citizen, speak only turkish" campaigns cruelly directed against catholic, jew, armenian and greek people despite their being legally citizens of turkey.
The closing of the theological school in heybeliada (halkilikia) in early 1970s.
Depiction of "cowardly greek" and "treacherous armenian" stereotyped profiles in history books and movies.
Ill-treatment of non-muslim women by turkish police who even make "advances" to them, with the crooked belief that christian or jewish women are "frivolous".
The deliberate and exaggarated bureaucratic difficulties directed against people who are either of greek or armenian or even jewish origin.
the other side of the medal:
In cyprus, prior to 1974 the t/c had to live in enclaves surrounded by armed eoka militia.
There were times during which even basic amenities such as milk for the children and/or vegetables were not allowed to pass thru g/c controlled checkposts.
Only on some days, the t/c could go to the seaside in Kyrenia (girne) escorted by U.N troops.
The g/c waiters refused to serve the t/c customers in greek owned restaurants.
In state offices the promotion of a t/c was out of question.
In rural areas, some t/c would suddently become "missing" only later to be found...dead.
The fate of t/c under majority g/c rule strangely look like the fate of jews under third reich. It was a matter of time before, they were about to forced to wear some badges like the yellow star armband that jews had to wear and it was a matter of time before they were to be exterminated by deportation.

Verdict:
1. An injustice against a nation, ethnic group, minority etc on a territory (Turks against greeks and Armenians and others in Anatolia) in no way justifies similar injustice this time perpetrated against the responsible party or an ethnically related group on another territory (Greeks and Greek Cypriots against Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus) and vice versa. This is something both Greece and Turkey did. (Similarly, what Asala did against turkish diplomats was plainly an act of terror, that is in no way justifiable).
2. For example, as a payback (revenge) for the eoka killings of t/c in Cyprus, the turkish government (e.g Menderes) plotted and carried out the great pogrom against the greeks of Istanbul in 1955. This led to mass departure of some of the finest people, best tradesmen, noted merchants, most skilled craftsman, doctors, and dentists. Indeed greeks of Istanbul were the jewel of that city, their departure have left a big vacuum that has never been filled and that act of vandalism and terror against them was simply disgusting. That was a big crime that I will always condemn.
3. But , to do fair justice, I strongly condemn enosis and eoka atrocities against t/c in Cyprus which I believe lies at the heart of the Cyprus Problem.
4. I think, I have made my point by aggreeing with most of your comments concerning the rights of minorities, their rights to elect and to be elected, their rights to exercise freely their faith in their own temple. Yes, greeks citizens forced out should be allowed to re-settle back.
5. For a start, I would be most pleased to witness the prime minister of turkey side-by-side with his Armenian counterpart, inaugurating together a monument at the heart of Istanbul, a monument which commerates the horrible genocide against Armenian people. Further, following this, turkey would make a worldwide declaration of an official apology to Armenians and swiftly lifts the blockade on the border with Armenia. Immediate state support as well as international help would be rushed to Armenian schools, foundations and churches in turkey. Renovations of churches and monuments in areas previously populated by Armenians (Bitlis, Bingol, Adiyaman, Mus , Tatvan, Van) would be started and both Armenians and diaspora who would like to re-settle in these areas would be called in. Jointly with Armenia, a network of railway web would link these areas both to Armenia and western turkey. Armenian language would be included in the Turkish universities’ curriculum and Armenian language TV would launch broadcasting. Increasing number of books, newpapers and other media help spreading the Armenian literature/cuisine/music thus would foster the image of an respected Armenian and eradicate the stereotyped profile of treacherous villain as many turks are commonly led to believe.
6. Ditto for assyrians and other christians. Moreover, even protestant churches should be allowed to run freely and without any intervention. Anyone must be free to convert, should he/she wishes so.
7. As for kurds, they are at the moment represented at the Turkish parliament under their own party dtp. Nobody is keeping them from voicing their own rights. The problem with kurds is that at the moment, they are in conflict with each other as to the route they will follow. At this point one should ask why the U.S, being generally favorable to the creation of Kurdish state, has allowed the Turkish army to mount operations against the p.k.k inside iraq.
8. Last but not least, cyprus issue should be solved by doing fair justice to t/c who suffered most and is still suffering under an international embargo.

Unfortunately I don't believe that the actual government in turkey would have the will and the courage to implement that. After all, they are feeding from mostly the same source as ultra-nationalists: backward, uneducated and xenophobe islamofascist masses.

[Eti]

Greekaiser

I sense because of your nick that you also tend to some fashistic opinions, but if I am wrong let me know this.

In 1970s, leftists were stronger in Turkey and then came a military stroke so leftists weakened. At that time such a thing was not problem for any European country and today they want Turkey to be more democratic country in some way. Isn't this weird?

Greeks were not kicked from Turkey. There was an exchange of populations between Turkey and Greece according to a treaty. Contrary to this, some Turks were kicked from Greece such as Island Crete. They fled from the island as leaving their properties behind. There are many people here from Crete or Island Rhodos.

I haven' yet heard any complaint from any Laz, Arab, Georgian or Slav. But in south-east Turkey there are some problems and some Kurds are complaining about their lives for sure. But you know some Turks living in North Greece have such problems too.

Such fashist attacks happens in Europe too, especially England, France and Germany. Remember the Turks who have been being burned by Neo-Nazis in Germany to date. As German government can not stop those fashists, Turkish government can not stop those our fashists too. But we don't totaly blame German goverment for those attacks, do we?

Do the French government recognize the Algerian genocide?

I don't understand what is your problems with M. Kemal. He just established Turkish Rep. and made some revolutions. He had not a problem with any minorities because he knew Turkey's population is mixed but tried to create a single state like your country our any other European countries and he didn't do any infliction on any minority. Who could manage to deal with such difficulities, so why he shouldn't be a hero. Remember he did a good relationship with Venizelos too.

You wrote "tourists must be protected from racist attacks". But for me, tourists must be protected from RAPIST attacks.

I'll continue to my answers.

[Greekaiser]

They had an overwhelming majority against a tiny t/c minority, so even if most of them might not have embraced the idea of enosis using violence, a small percentage would suffice to create havoc.(simple math; a small % of a majority would still be big compared to the same % of a minority.) . So, you can not present g/c enosis aspirations as harmless and innocent.



This is like saying , jews too, also killed Nazis during WWII. As a matter of fact, in spite of their obvious disadvantage in weapons against the german army, they indeed did kill Nazis during Warsaw uprising against their deportation to concentration camps. However, in cyprus, the fight was between the oppressor and the oppressed and too unequal just as the fight between t/c and g/c were quite unequal. Tmt also killed g/c and some t/c they thought they were traitors. But at the end of day, how could you compare tmt against eoka under such conditions? The conflict was entirely unequal. Btw, you wouln’t expect the t/c to accept to be slaughtered like a sheep in a slaughter house, would you?

I will elaborate this issue further towards the end of my post


I suppose you mean turkish army and not t/c ? Apart from a very few isolated cases most of the violence came from eoka prior to 1974. How could you expect members of a much smaller community doing harm to members of a larger community. ? On the other hand, yes during 1974 intervention (call it invasion if you like) turkish army did some atrocities to g/c.

Anyway, I don’t want to dwell on “who killed who” or “who started first” or “our causalities are higher than yours” type of arguments. Such discussions are conducive to nowhere. However as far as Cyprus is concerned all these undeniably point that there is pressing need of solid, permanent and unbreakable agreement between t/c and g/c, for it was them who suffered most, the former prior to 1974, and the latter after, not greece and turkey. Moreover, if such an agreement is to remain uncontestable and unviolated, it should place more emphasis on protecting the rights of the weaker and the under-advantaged one, that is t/c.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Resistance_Organization

i see that u r generally open-minded but about the TMT there are some problems
read the article that i sent to u
i want now to take a look at the picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tmt.jpg

we see:
-the cyprus island
-the gray wolf
-the turkish flag symbol
-2 swords
-the date 1958

what all these means?
was it a leftist or revolutionary organization?
or a backed from turkey organization to bring the partition? (through force of course)
when the violence against t/c started?
1963
when this organization was formed? 1958
why? did they predict the violence against t/c?
i guess not

the root of the problem is not enosis
i will explain to you

g/c as we had said ,and we know were the majority in the island. Not in one region, u could find more t/c than g/c
the t/c were scattered.
What this means? That the g/c could rule the island simply through democratical means (votes).
Even with a referedum ,the enosis could happen. I say this for a simple reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Hatay

now tell me
is hatay turkish?
How can turkey annex a province when the majotiry doesn't want and in cyprus case that the majority wants annexation to greece, then turkey is against?
So the g/c didn't care about whether to use violence or not against t/c because their enemy at start were brits.

The problem starts when the brits decided to divide the island
the reason that the 1960 constitution was accepted by g/c was one and simple
the brits threatened with the division of the island in case that the g/c didn't collaborate
this division would mean the annexation of some parts to turkey.

TMT was there exactly for that reason
when u see t/c parties called ''Cyprus is turkish'', u can understand what's going on.
The proof for that is the public statements of many brit and american diplomats (prior 1960)
like 'there is only one solution and this is the division' (usa)
''the only solution is the creation of 3 areas ,one greek, one turkish and one british'' (UK) (this is what will happen with annan plan)
or the dentash statement ''we need dead'', meaning that they need violence and dead people ,from any side so that tension is created.

The reason that eoka used violence is probably to make t/c leave the island so that it can be annexed easily to greece.

but what about turkey?
could division peacefully happen?
answer: NO
division could happen only through the forced population transfer. (1974), exactly because the t/c were minority
turkish cypriots were used by turkey and britain but only through force a t/c state could be created
TMT, as there for that reason

What really makes me upset is that you want so many rights and power for t/c but what about ur minorities?
this is the root of the problem
turkish cypriots are used by britain and turkey as a tool
but at the same time turkey considers ilegal anyone to even talk about minorities
isn't this ironic?
how can a particular minorit enjoys so many rights and power when other don't have
t/c is the only minority in the world that wants more rights than the majority!
read the racist annan plan and u will understand

when i ask why minorities in turkey have no rights and they seek for their own in other countries the answers are 'the kurds are happy', 'the kurds are terrorists', 'its different', 'the turks are great nation' (gray wolf answer why t/c should take their state but minorities in turkey should not)

the root of the problem is not at any case the t/c themselves
but the root of the problem is the fact that great powers use the t/c for their own good
turkey before 1960 has claimed that whether the island must be annexed to turkey or remain to britain
turkey threatened to divide (cooperatinf with uk) the island in case that independence is declared.
the istanbul pogrom happened so that the greeks are afraid and understand that turkey is willing to use any means
(note that this pogrom happened before violence against t/c is used)

eoka, tmt, the coup, even the invasion are past
but the occupation is not past
it happens
there is not embargo against the t/c but blockade of an occupied territory by a foreign country
if there wasn't blockade then the t/c wouldn't even think re-unification

turkey must decide whether is pro-intergnity or pro-independencies
whether is pro-minority rights or not

the 1/4 of the t/c had left the island after 1974, this shows that the results of the invasion are obvious against all cypriots
you said that its not good to argue who is the bad
but turkey is the country that in cyprus problem continuisly uses the past

to compare eoka to nazis is simply unacceptable
its way different

[Greekaiser]

Turks historically committed many injustices against christian minorities in anatolia.
First, infamous A.G and its denial, then varlik vergisi (property tax levied exclusively on non muslims in 1947).
Then, the great pogrom against greeks in september 1955.
Then, constant harassment against non-muslims, the wave of "citizen, speak only turkish" campaigns cruelly directed against catholic, jew, armenian and greek people despite their being legally citizens of turkey.
The closing of the theological school in heybeliada (halkilikia) in early 1970s.
Depiction of "cowardly greek" and "treacherous armenian" stereotyped profiles in history books and movies.
Ill-treatment of non-muslim women by turkish police who even make "advances" to them, with the crooked belief that christian or jewish women are "frivolous".
The deliberate and exaggarated bureaucratic difficulties directed against people who are either of greek or armenian or even jewish origin.
the other side of the medal:
In cyprus, prior to 1974 the t/c had to live in enclaves surrounded by armed eoka militia.
There were times during which even basic amenities such as milk for the children and/or vegetables were not allowed to pass thru g/c controlled checkposts.
Only on some days, the t/c could go to the seaside in Kyrenia (girne) escorted by U.N troops.
The g/c waiters refused to serve the t/c customers in greek owned restaurants.
In state offices the promotion of a t/c was out of question.
In rural areas, some t/c would suddently become "missing" only later to be found...dead.
The fate of t/c under majority g/c rule strangely look like the fate of jews under third reich. It was a matter of time before, they were about to forced to wear some badges like the yellow star armband that jews had to wear and it was a matter of time before they were to be exterminated by deportation.

Verdict:
1. An injustice against a nation, ethnic group, minority etc on a territory (Turks against greeks and Armenians and others in Anatolia) in no way justifies similar injustice this time perpetrated against the responsible party or an ethnically related group on another territory (Greeks and Greek Cypriots against Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus) and vice versa. This is something both Greece and Turkey did. (Similarly, what Asala did against turkish diplomats was plainly an act of terror, that is in no way justifiable).
2. For example, as a payback (revenge) for the eoka killings of t/c in Cyprus, the turkish government (e.g Menderes) plotted and carried out the great pogrom against the greeks of Istanbul in 1955. This led to mass departure of some of the finest people, best tradesmen, noted merchants, most skilled craftsman, doctors, and dentists. Indeed greeks of Istanbul were the jewel of that city, their departure have left a big vacuum that has never been filled and that act of vandalism and terror against them was simply disgusting. That was a big crime that I will always condemn.
3. But , to do fair justice, I strongly condemn enosis and eoka atrocities against t/c in Cyprus which I believe lies at the heart of the Cyprus Problem.
4. I think, I have made my point by aggreeing with most of your comments concerning the rights of minorities, their rights to elect and to be elected, their rights to exercise freely their faith in their own temple. Yes, greeks citizens forced out should be allowed to re-settle back.
5. For a start, I would be most pleased to witness the prime minister of turkey side-by-side with his Armenian counterpart, inaugurating together a monument at the heart of Istanbul, a monument which commerates the horrible genocide against Armenian people. Further, following this, turkey would make a worldwide declaration of an official apology to Armenians and swiftly lifts the blockade on the border with Armenia. Immediate state support as well as international help would be rushed to Armenian schools, foundations and churches in turkey. Renovations of churches and monuments in areas previously populated by Armenians (Bitlis, Bingol, Adiyaman, Mus , Tatvan, Van) would be started and both Armenians and diaspora who would like to re-settle in these areas would be called in. Jointly with Armenia, a network of railway web would link these areas both to Armenia and western turkey. Armenian language would be included in the Turkish universities’ curriculum and Armenian language TV would launch broadcasting. Increasing number of books, newpapers and other media help spreading the Armenian literature/cuisine/music thus would foster the image of an respected Armenian and eradicate the stereotyped profile of treacherous villain as many turks are commonly led to believe.
6. Ditto for assyrians and other christians. Moreover, even protestant churches should be allowed to run freely and without any intervention. Anyone must be free to convert, should he/she wishes so.
7. As for kurds, they are at the moment represented at the Turkish parliament under their own party dtp. Nobody is keeping them from voicing their own rights. The problem with kurds is that at the moment, they are in conflict with each other as to the route they will follow. At this point one should ask why the U.S, being generally favorable to the creation of Kurdish state, has allowed the Turkish army to mount operations against the p.k.k inside iraq.
8. Last but not least, cyprus issue should be solved by doing fair justice to t/c who suffered most and is still suffering under an international embargo.

Unfortunately I don't believe that the actual government in turkey would have the will and the courage to implement that. After all, they are feeding from mostly the same source as ultra-nationalists: backward, uneducated and xenophobe islamofascist masses.

i agree
we have also done and still do injustices against minorities but simply in a lower scale
the turks of thrace for example are not fully respected by greek state
but at least they enjoy many rights (language, existence, not violence) that turkey don't give.

[Greekaiser]

Greekaiser

I sense because of your nick that you also tend to some fashistic opinions, but if I am wrong let me know this.

In 1970s, leftists were stronger in Turkey and then came a military stroke so leftists weakened. At that time such a thing was not problem for any European country and today they want Turkey to be more democratic country in some way. Isn't this weird?

Greeks were not kicked from Turkey. There was an exchange of populations between Turkey and Greece according to a treaty. Contrary to this, some Turks were kicked from Greece such as Island Crete. They fled from the island as leaving their properties behind. There are many people here from Crete or Island Rhodos.

I haven' yet heard any complaint from any Laz, Arab, Georgian or Slav. But in south-east Turkey there are some problems and some Kurds are complaining about their lives for sure. But you know some Turks living in North Greece have such problems too.

Such fashist attacks happens in Europe too, especially England, France and Germany. Remember the Turks who have been being burned by Neo-Nazis in Germany to date. As German government can not stop those fashists, Turkish government can not stop those our fashists too. But we don't totaly blame German goverment for those attacks, do we?

Do the French government recognize the Algerian genocide?

I don't understand what is your problems with M. Kemal. He just established Turkish Rep. and made some revolutions. He had not a problem with any minorities because he knew Turkey's population is mixed but tried to create a single state like your country our any other European countries and he didn't do any infliction on any minority. Who could manage to deal with such difficulities, so why he shouldn't be a hero. Remember he did a good relationship with Venizelos too.

You wrote "tourists must be protected from racist attacks". But for me, tourists must be protected from RAPIST attacks.

I'll continue to my answers.

my nick?
no
i just used it in games, and i got used of it.
simply

turk and leftist?
hmmm
....
i have seen no turk leftist ever rule turkey...


no greeks were kicked?
hmmm
population exchange? hmmmm
u probably don't know pontian genocide
and u don't know what war means
in 1922 1,5 million greeks were driven out from turkey and only 500000 turks from greece
if this can be called exchange....
also u don't know about imbros and istanbul pogrom

as for rhodes, in 1949 when the island was annexed to greece, greek government gave minority rights to the 3000 turks living there, without having any obligation to
these rights were taken back after your actions against greeks of turkey (1971)

''I haven' yet heard any complaint from any Laz, Arab, Georgian or Slav.''
does ur state even recognizes their existence?
who to complain
its not allowed to complain
the reason that kurds are heard is because they are many and because of PKK actions


''Such fashist attacks happens in Europe too, especially England, France and Germany.''
in germany the people themselves answer to the attacks of the neo nazi
if u r neo nazi the state imprison u
in contrast in turkey
i see the state even cooperate with them

gray wolves also cooperate with the PKK (!!!!!)
they pass drugs to europe ,drugs produced by PKK ,so that they gain money

algerian genocide?
i see that the only ones that recognize this one are turks not even arabs
guess why...


also read how turkish state was created
''He had not a problem with any minorities because he knew Turkey's population is mixed but tried to create a single state like your country our any other European countries'': this is the problem
that turkey thinks that is a single-nation state
turkey tends to become one
via genocide...
(cultural or violent)

[Eti]

Here I continue again Greekaiser.

It is very important to know Turkey’s history when let yourself into such discussions.

Bülent Ecevit was one of leftist politicians in Turkey. He always supported workers and managed to give some social rights to lauborer-class people. When he was the leader of CHP in 1970s his party came to power for a few years. You know him from Cyprus landing happened in 1974. And he then formed a new party (Democratic Leftist Party) in 1985 and he was again president in late 90s. He was also a poet and had written a poem about Turkish-Greek friendship before 1974. Here is a line from that poem.

“When you had homesick (in a foreign country) you realize that Greeks are your real friends.”

While living abroad,no doubt, he felt that Greek people closer to himself than other people due to some similarities between the two nations (also Armenians are in this same position ). But ironically, he had to make a decision about Cyprus landing in 1974.

Hatay problem was solved in 1938 by an election. People voted for Turkey and Hatay remained in Turkey’s borders. And there is no threat for Syria. The problem that happened between Turkey and Syria has been solved since the early 90s. (I can’t remember the exact date). There is also no water problem between Turkey and Syria for a long time.

If you do an elaborate search about history of Seljuk and Ottoman empires you realize that those states were formed according to military systems. In fact, the army was also the government. Like Roman empire, those empires were based upon conquest to mantain their existance. So even in Turkish Republic, The Army has played an important role in ruling and always acted on this role that has inherited from those empires. But recently The Army convinced itself to reduce its effects steadily.

And also most of the problems that you wrote about Turkey are common and shared by most of the countries all around the world. Your opinions just lead us that there is no real democracy on the world. In fact, it is. Democracy can not be carried out while the financial unequality continues among the people all around the world. The rich will always be privileged while the poor exist. So even Denmark or Sweden which can be considered as most democratic countries may increasingly have more democratical dilemmas since The Soviet Union collapsed due to beginning to take back the people’s some social rights lately. Because, Soviet Union doesn’t exist any more and there is no rival to compete against.

I admit that there are a lot of problems in Turkey mostly because of Ottoman inheritance. Those problems were tried to be solved by the some acts of M. Kemal. The heritage of Ottoman Empire still causes those problems to continue in some ways and AG or whatsoever is one of them. Turkey could have handled those problems if there had not been some mistakes done by mostly rightist politicians after the late 1940s.

[Alexandros]

Here I continue again Greekaiser.

It is very important to know Turkey’s history when let yourself into such discussions.

Bülent Ecevit was one of leftist politicians in Turkey. He always supported workers and managed to give some social rights to lauborer-class people. When he was the leader of CHP in 1970s his party came to power for a few years. You know him from Cyprus landing happened in 1974. And he then formed a new party (Democratic Leftist Party) in 1985 and he was again president in late 90s. He was also a poet and had written a poem about Turkish-Greek friendship before 1974. Here is a line from that poem.

“When you had homesick (in a foreign country) you realize that Greeks are your real friends.”

While living abroad,no doubt, he felt that Greek people closer to himself than other people due to some similarities between the two nations (also Armenians are in this same position ). But ironically, he had to make a decision about Cyprus landing in 1974.

Hatay problem was solved in 1938 by an election. People voted for Turkey and Hatay remained in Turkey’s borders. And there is no threat for Syria. The problem that happened between Turkey and Syria has been solved since the early 90s. (I can’t remember the exact date). There is also no water problem between Turkey and Syria for a long time.

If you do an elaborate search about history of Seljuk and Ottoman empires you realize that those states were formed according to military systems. In fact, the army was also the government. Like Roman empire, those empires were based upon conquest to mantain their existance. So even in Turkish Republic, The Army has played an important role in ruling and always acted on this role that has inherited from those empires. But recently The Army convinced itself to reduce its effects steadily.

And also most of the problems that you wrote about Turkey are common and shared by most of the countries all around the world. Your opinions just lead us that there is no real democracy on the world. In fact, it is. Democracy can not be carried out while the financial unequality continues among the people all around the world. The rich will always be privileged while the poor exist. So even Denmark or Sweden which can be considered as most democratic countries may increasingly have more democratical dilemmas since The Soviet Union collapsed due to beginning to take back the people’s some social rights lately. Because, Soviet Union doesn’t exist any more and there is no rival to compete against.

I admit that there are a lot of problems in Turkey mostly because of Ottoman inheritance. Those problems were tried to be solved by the some acts of M. Kemal. The heritage of Ottoman Empire still causes those problems to continue in some ways and AG or whatsoever is one of them. Turkey could have handled those problems if there had not been some mistakes done by mostly rightist politicians after the late 1940s.

Merhaba Eti.Welcome to the forum

While living abroad,no doubt, he felt that Greek people closer to himself than other people due to some similarities between the two nations (also Armenians are in this same position ). But ironically, he had to make a decision about Cyprus landing in 1974.

I have heard that Ecevit was actually against the invasion - or "intervention" as you Turks call it - of Cyprus from the beginning but was forced by the Turkish military to support the invasion?Do you know anything about this or is this just BS?

[Eti]

Merhaba Eti.Welcome to the forum

I have heard that Ecevit was actually against the invasion - or "intervention" as you Turks call it - of Cyprus from the beginning but was forced by the Turkish military to support he invasion?Do you know anything about this or is this just BS?

Thank you for your welcome.

Actually, I have no any exact thing about this to tell you.

But in my opinion, normally, a man like Bülent Ecevit would be against such a solution that was to be fullfilled by army. On the other hand, most likely, those horrible events happening in Cyprus must have given him some courage to make such a decision. And of course, we can't ignore the role of the Generals on such a event especially in a country like Turkey.