Have you heard of the Akhtamar church issue with Turkey

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Don't please!

Turn my head to.......Mecca ?

Next thing the Grey Wolves will say that Turks built Mecca, not the "filthy gypsy Arabs".

I had one dude arguing with me that my paternal culture (Nahuatl Native American like from the Olmecas, Toltecas and Aztecas) was formed by the Turks and that they are the natural rulers of Mexico as well

[Joseph]

Everyone, let's keep this thread civil. I think Turks who make outlandish statements regarding Ataturk's "Sun Theory" are a small and shrinking minority.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Ahh, and here is my view

History lesson ...

The Ottoman Empire was an empire divided up not by ethnicity, but by religion. During the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey, Christian Western Anatolians were considered "Greek" and were expelled to Greece, while Balkan Muslims were considered "Turks" and expelled to Turkey. This is an example of how religion determined the ethnicity of Ottomans during the nationalization of the Empire.

This is exactly why Islam is such an integral part of Turkish identity. A Turk from Edirne (Balkans) and a Turk from Erzurum (Eastern Anatolian) have nothing ethnically in common, yet they are both Turkish. Why? Because their descendants were muslim.
For the record, i am not a religious person, but yet i fully realize that i am Turkish only because my descendants were muslim.

Pedro, you said "Nationalism (which is ethnic in origin)" Wrong, i am firstly American because i was born in the US. Yet, i am ethnically Eastern European on my mothers side, and Western Anatolian on my fathers side. There is NOTHING central Asian about being Turkish. The only component of Turkish identity that is central Asian is the Turkish language. BUT, remember that the Turkish language is a very artificial one, it was literally invented 80 years ago by Kemalists to help Turkify the nation.

Pedro, STOP CALLING ME A GREY WOLF. You have a very serious misunderstanding of the identity of Turkish people. Did you know that some of the most violent members of the Grey Wolves are in fact ethnically Kurdish? Yet paradoxically, Grey Wolves are a firm believer in that Turkishness is an ethnic race. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense because Turks are unfortunately clueless of their true ethnic origins.

If anything, call me a Kemalist, because thats what I am. You cant destroy ones ethnic background because it is genetic. However, you can nationalize them, just like how I consider myself to be American first despite my ethnic background. Nationalism, especially in the case of Turkey, is less ethnic than you think.

Islam is not as such part of the Turkish ethnicity, just like with any ethnic group it depends on your language, culture, music, etc. By trying as you said to Turkify the Kurds thereby assimilating them and making them forget their Median heritage.

Now as to nationalism go research the term, you are confusing Republicanism with Nationalism. As an ideology, nationalism holds that 'the people' in the doctrine of popular sovereignty is the nation, and that as a result only nation-states founded on the principle of national self-determination are legitimate. Since most states are multinational, or at least home to more than one group claiming national status,the pursuit of this principle has often led to conflict, and nationalism is commonly associated with war (both external and domestic), secession, and even genocide in contexts ranging from imperial conquest to struggles for national liberation.

Republicanism (not the US kind, but I mean Socialist Republican like Sinn Fein,
EZLN and so forth) Republicanism is the ideology of governing a nation as a republic, with an emphasis on liberty, rule of law, popular sovereignty and the civic virtue practiced by citizens. Republicanism always stands in opposition to any form of dictatorship or tyranny. More broadly, it refers to a political system that protects liberty, especially by incorporating a rule of law that cannot be arbitrarily ignored by the government. As John Adams put it, “They define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men.” Much of the literature deals with the issue of what sort of values and behavior by the citizens is necessary if the republic is to survive and flourish; the emphasis has been on widespread citizen participation, civic virtue, and opposition to corruption.

All citizens, minorities included should be equal before the law and enjoy the same treatment and be able to practice their home languages without fail.

I know full well most Turks today are not East Asians or Central Asia but usually Turkified Eastern Europeans, Greeks and in the case of Azeris Turkified Persians, Armenians and Caucasians.
But the point is removing Armenian and Arab historical names are replacing them with a Turkish language of today which as become more Altaic is very much reverting back to Central Asian identity, while its fine in to have Central Asian indentity in Central Asia, this shouldn't be done in West Asia.

As to Kemal, I know Turks love him, but he did some stuff to Kurds which were horrible and he did indeed steal Imbros from the Greeks and helped the Turks take Armenian lands in the Turkey Armenian war.
Regardless, it is not wise to use a cult of personality, while I have many leaders I admire (Connelly, Valera, Zapata, Guevara, Arafat, etc.) I don't profess them as a messiahnic figure, they are people just like all of us.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Sorry man

Everyone, let's keep this thread civil. I think Turks who make outlandish statements regarding Ataturk's "Sun Theory" are a small and shrinking minority.

I didn't try to seem uncivil, just pointing out that some of the policies he proposes are kinda unfair towards all minorities. I am not calling him names, nor insulting his culture or his ethnicities religion. I am merely saying that a "fication" of any kind is usually risky business.

[Joseph]

I didn't try to seem uncivil, just pointing out that some of the policies he proposes are kinda unfair towards all minorities. I am not calling him names, nor insulting his culture or his ethnicities religion. I am merely saying that a "fication" of any kind is usually risky business.

Understood.

[egeli]

You guys are making me seem a lot more fanatic than i actually am ...

For one thing, i do NOT believe in the sun theory. Did I say ANYWHERE in my posts that i believe Turkish is the world's original language, that all languages come from central Asia? All what I am arguing is that Turkish was created 80 years ago by Kemalists, many of whom happened to be Armenian Kemalists.

Look, there is a world of difference between MHP Grey Wolf Turkish nationalism and Kemalist nationalism. MHP nationalism is based on ethnic nationalism (and wrongly so, because there is no such thing as a Turkish race). Kemalism is a nationalism based on an ideology. Anyone can be a Kemalist. Ever heard of Sevgi Erenerol of the Turkish Orthodox Church? She is an ethnic Greek, but also happens to be a huge Kemalist nationalist.

Pedro, you said "Kemal did indeed steal Imbros from the Greeks and helped the Turks take Armenian lands in the Turkey Armenian war.:

Imbros (Gokceada) and Tenedos (xxxcaada) are two very beautiful islands that were stipulated to Turkey in the Lausanne treaty. How did Ataturk exactly "steal" these islands? There are thousands of Islands in the Aegean sea, its nice that Turkey has atleast two of them.

I will be the first to admit that the Laussane treaty also stipulated for the Greeks on these islands (and in Istanbul) to be protected. They weren't and instead slowly chased away, just like the Greeks in Istanbul. However, this had nothing to do with Ataturk.

Anyway I frequently do go to xxxcaada, i heard Greek spoken there the last time i went. The AKP recently restored a Greek Church in xxxcaada. It is currently the only place in Turkey where a cross is openly displayed on a restored church ...

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Aye, maybe I am

But lad see it from my perspective if you look at all your posts, for one thing you never answered my question regarding Hamshenis, what happens to them, are they expected to, because they are Muslims, drop their Hayer heritage and become Turkified.

The problem is still with nationalism, think of me rather as an internationalist as most Marxists indeed are. I believe in free Socialist Republics in which all minorities are equal and free, I understand the Kemalist ideology, to understand mine read Seamus O' Connell (James Connelly in English) and Che Guevara.

Secondly, answer me this, what do you exactly mean by Turkification, do you mean as in a citizen sense (equal rights as citizens) or a sense of adopting the Turkish language, customs and culture because that is cultural genocide as you are telling people to assimilate and there forget their history.

[Joseph]

You guys are making me seem a lot more fanatic than i actually am ...

For one thing, i do NOT believe in the sun theory. Did I say ANYWHERE in my posts that i believe Turkish is the world's original language, that all languages come from central Asia? All what I am arguing is that Turkish was created 80 years ago by Kemalists, many of whom happened to be Armenian Kemalists.

Look, there is a world of difference between MHP Grey Wolf Turkish nationalism and Kemalist nationalism. MHP nationalism is based on ethnic nationalism (and wrongly so, because there is no such thing as a Turkish race). Kemalism is a nationalism based on an ideology. Anyone can be a Kemalist. Ever heard of Sevgi Erenerol of the Turkish Orthodox Church? She is an ethnic Greek, but also happens to be a huge Kemalist nationalist.

Pedro, you said "Kemal did indeed steal Imbros from the Greeks and helped the Turks take Armenian lands in the Turkey Armenian war.:

Imbros (Gokceada) and Tenedos (xxxcaada) are two very beautiful islands that were stipulated to Turkey in the Lausanne treaty. How did Ataturk exactly "steal" these islands? There are thousands of Islands in the Aegean sea, its nice that Turkey has atleast two of them.

I will be the first to admit that the Laussane treaty also stipulated for the Greeks on these islands (and in Istanbul) to be protected. They weren't and instead slowly chased away, just like the Greeks in Istanbul. However, this had nothing to do with Ataturk.

Anyway I frequently do go to xxxcaada, i heard Greek spoken there the last time i went. The AKP recently restored a Greek Church in xxxcaada. It is currently the only place in Turkey where a cross is openly displayed on a restored church ...

Be assured, I don't think you believe in the Sun Theory. I know quite a bit about the detestable Erenerol.

[bell-the-cat]

Im sorry, i guess i should have made an introduction about my political views first. You just gave an entire assumption that i accept these policies. I do not, there were many Christian Anatolians who were faithful to the Turkish state (Hrant Dink is one of many). Hrant Dink even wanted to be an officer in the Turkish army. However, because he was identified as Armenian (on par with the Lausanne treaty), the Turkish army forbid it.

The Turkish nation never accepted these faithful Anatolian Christians only because they refused to be Turkified. I hope Turkey will one day be less insecure of its identity and allow ethnic pluralism.

In Turkey, it doesn't matter what ethnic background you come from, as long you are proud to be CALLED a Turk, you are Turkish, and the state will not oppress you.

Turkish culture is Anatolian culture, its certainly not "central Asian culture" Wake up and go to Turkey to see for yourself.

I wrote a long reply to the above, but when posting it I got a "database error" mesage and my post was lost!
I don't feel like rewriting it just now, but one thing I said was that egeli is making some interesting and intelligent thoughts here and in some of the other posts, and much of subsequent criticism of him/her is unjustified.

[bell-the-cat]

I will be the first to admit that the Laussane treaty also stipulated for the Greeks on these islands (and in Istanbul) to be protected. They weren't and instead slowly chased away, just like the Greeks in Istanbul. However, this had nothing to do with Ataturk.

The implication being that everything good that happened had everything to do with Ataturk and Kemalism, and everything bad that happened has nothing at all to do with it? That is a problem when using an ideology to understand events.