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I was on the net the other day and of course, everybody's favourite Genocide denier (next to Holdwater, but we outed him anyway) Mr. Ergun Kirlikovali was there.
Now this Mr. Kirlikovali is on every Genocide denying, debating or even proving website posting the same old tired questions. However I decided I think it fair to debate him in his claims and see if he can come up with substantial replies
1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)
The Genocide term was coined by Lemkin after he looked at the Armenian Genocide and the Assyrian Genocide, to say it happened before that date so it doesn't count makes no sense, it is a term to refer to mass slaughter with intent to kill and entire people (as per the Pan Turanic plan).
2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a “competent court” after “due process” where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.
This is fairly rich as Turkey refuses to open Ottoman archives and even if there is an agreement, they will only give "selected testimonies they feel
relevant, if Turkey wants a competenet court it should be neutral and Armenians should have access to ALL Ottoman documents, not just those Turkey allows
3- Such a “competent court” was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)
Those who deny the Armenain genocide often publicized the tribunal attempt and claim that trials did occur and that as no one was convicted due to lack of evidence that they had committed war crimes, exonerating the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. However, as documented by Vahakn Dadrian, no such trials were ever planned or executed - there were no "international" trials of the Malta exiles[11] - the British were only detaining suspected Turkish war criminals as they were escaping from Ottoman confinement at an alarming rate.
The majority of the Malta exiles were exchanged for British POWs held by the new Turkish republic.
4- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier “alleged”, for scholarly objectivity and truth.
A plethora of Documents, Testimonials, Military and Missionary reports, various Government Reports and people of various faiths (Arab and Kurdish reports prove Genocide, will post source)
5- Genocide claim is based on racist and dishonest history. Racist because it ignores the much larger Turkish suffering and death toll while it honors only Armenian dead and suffering. And dishonest because it dismisses the bloody Armenian armed revolts (1890-1920), domestic and international Armenian terrorism (1882-1921 and then again 1973 to present) , supreme Armenian treason (as in joining an invading enemy army to kill their fellow Ottoman neighbors, 1914-1918) and Armenian territorial demands (1877-present) , all of which combined to cause their TERESET (temporary resettlement) in another part of the Ottoman Empire—hence cannot be labeled a deportation.
Nope, whats false is Turkey's claims of ongoing Armenian terrorism, ASALA was already finished when Monte Melkonyan and Hagopian had a fallout, so that is without base or fact. The ammount of Armenians rebellion is oft overstated by Denialists, there were groups who did want the Ottoman empire to change (Dashnaks, Hnchaks and Ramgavars). It must be understood firstly that Armenians in Eastern Armenia were part of the Russian/Persian empire, not party of the Ottoman empire, Armenians were the loyal nation of the Turks, while Greeks and Arabs already revolted in 1821, Armenians generally were loyal to the Ottomans. The supposed temporary resettlement was of mostly Women, Children and the elderly, people posing no threat whatsoever, in addition most of these people were never heard from again and instead corpses found, wonder why...could it be Genocide?
6- Recognizing Armenian claim as genocide will deeply insult Turkish-Americans as well as Turks around the globe and destroy the excellent relations currently enjoyed between the U.S. and Turkey. It will, no doubt, please Armenians but disappoint, insult, and outrage Turkey, one of America’s closest allies since the Korean War of 1950-53. Turks stood shoulder to shoulder with Americans in Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more. American gratitude and thanks will appear to come (because of the Armenian lobby) in the form of the worst insult that can be dished out to an entire nation.
This is entirely the problem, "insulting the nation" (similar to the non democratic article 301 of the Turkish Penal code. Armenians constantly
to propaganda spreading Genocide denialists do not enjoy insulting,
disappointing or outraging Turkey, they merely want an apology for a crime against humanity. The logic of Senor Kirlikovali is heavily flawed, this would be like saying its fair to deny the Holocaust in order to appease Germans because they support America economically, politics should not interfere with Historical fact.
7- History is not a matter of “conviction, consensus, political resolutions, or propaganda.” History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved for a “competent court” with its legal expertise and due process.
The Armenian Genocide has been historically proven time and time again,
every Turkish counter claim has been refuted, disproven and proved to be made up. The topic has been researched, reviewed, debated and honestly studied, all conclusions that are properly done lead to the fact Armenians were killed in a Genocide. There is a large amount of information that is available which has never been refuted by the Turkish representatives.
8- What we witness today amounts to lynching of the Turks by Armenians to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry. American values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet. Unprovoked , unjustified, and unfair defamation of Turkey, one of America’s closest allies in the troubled Middle East, in order to appease some nagging Armenian activists runs counter to American interests.
This entirely unfair to claim that Armenians as a people hate Turks, Turkey has been proven guilty (a fact many countries agree with oddly) by objective parties. I find personally hypocritical of Turkey itself to question freedom of speech as Turkey has freedom of speech violations (in addition people being killed due to their views such as Hrant Dink) as is the case with Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam, Fatma Gocek. American (or any other national) interests should not stand in the way of truth and justice, one of the founding principals of America is "Justice for all", interests, whether economical, political or whatever cannot be used as an excuse not to see the truth of a situation, otherwise we fail Democracy.
9- Hate-based proclamations, such as Schiff’s HR 106, have never been an American way to do business. Why start now?
I would like Mr Kirlikovali to enlighten me how calling an historically proven Genocide what is hatred, will we next claim that the US accepting that there was a Holocaust and so forth as Hate Speech, if anything according to alot of countries laws denying Genocide is Hate Speech.
10- Those who claim genocide verdict today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in “conviction and execution without due process”. Last time I looked in the dictionary, that was the definition of “lynch mobs”.
The evidence has yet to be properly discredited by due process
.
Armenians are not lynching Turks, nor doing anything similar, they just want closure, just like any victim.
Isn’t it time for Armenians to stop fighting the First World War and give peace a chance?
Isn't it time to let go of that Anti Armenian hate and issue an apology, its easy to issue an apology, Germany could, why can't Turkey
I was on the net the other day and of course, everybody's favourite Genocide denier (next to Holdwater, but we outed him anyway) Mr. Ergun Kirlikovali was there.
Now this Mr. Kirlikovali is on every Genocide denying, debating or even proving website posting the same old tired questions. However I decided I think it fair to debate him in his claims and see if he can come up with substantial replies
1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)
The Genocide term was coined by Lemkin after he looked at the Armenian Genocide and the Assyrian Genocide, to say it happened before that date so it doesn't count makes no sense, it is a term to refer to mass slaughter with intent to kill and entire people (as per the Pan Turanic plan).
2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a “competent court” after “due process” where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.
This is fairly rich as Turkey refuses to open Ottoman archives and even if there is an agreement, they will only give "selected testimonies they feel
relevant, if Turkey wants a competenet court it should be neutral and Armenians should have access to ALL Ottoman documents, not just those Turkey allows
3- Such a “competent court” was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)
Those who deny the Armenain genocide often publicized the tribunal attempt and claim that trials did occur and that as no one was convicted due to lack of evidence that they had committed war crimes, exonerating the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. However, as documented by Vahakn Dadrian, no such trials were ever planned or executed - there were no "international" trials of the Malta exiles[11] - the British were only detaining suspected Turkish war criminals as they were escaping from Ottoman confinement at an alarming rate.
The majority of the Malta exiles were exchanged for British POWs held by the new Turkish republic.
4- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier “alleged”, for scholarly objectivity and truth.
A plethora of Documents, Testimonials, Military and Missionary reports, various Government Reports and people of various faiths (Arab and Kurdish reports prove Genocide, will post source)
5- Genocide claim is based on racist and dishonest history. Racist because it ignores the much larger Turkish suffering and death toll while it honors only Armenian dead and suffering. And dishonest because it dismisses the bloody Armenian armed revolts (1890-1920), domestic and international Armenian terrorism (1882-1921 and then again 1973 to present) , supreme Armenian treason (as in joining an invading enemy army to kill their fellow Ottoman neighbors, 1914-1918) and Armenian territorial demands (1877-present) , all of which combined to cause their TERESET (temporary resettlement) in another part of the Ottoman Empire—hence cannot be labeled a deportation.
Nope, whats false is Turkey's claims of ongoing Armenian terrorism, ASALA was already finished when Monte Melkonyan and Hagopian had a fallout, so that is without base or fact. The ammount of Armenians rebellion is oft overstated by Denialists, there were groups who did want the Ottoman empire to change (Dashnaks, Hnchaks and Ramgavars). It must be understood firstly that Armenians in Eastern Armenia were part of the Russian/Persian empire, not party of the Ottoman empire, Armenians were the loyal nation of the Turks, while Greeks and Arabs already revolted in 1821, Armenians generally were loyal to the Ottomans. The supposed temporary resettlement was of mostly Women, Children and the elderly, people posing no threat whatsoever, in addition most of these people were never heard from again and instead corpses found, wonder why...could it be Genocide?
6- Recognizing Armenian claim as genocide will deeply insult Turkish-Americans as well as Turks around the globe and destroy the excellent relations currently enjoyed between the U.S. and Turkey. It will, no doubt, please Armenians but disappoint, insult, and outrage Turkey, one of America’s closest allies since the Korean War of 1950-53. Turks stood shoulder to shoulder with Americans in Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more. American gratitude and thanks will appear to come (because of the Armenian lobby) in the form of the worst insult that can be dished out to an entire nation.
This is entirely the problem, "insulting the nation" (similar to the non democratic article 301 of the Turkish Penal code. Armenians constantly
to propaganda spreading Genocide denialists do not enjoy insulting,
disappointing or outraging Turkey, they merely want an apology for a crime against humanity. The logic of Senor Kirlikovali is heavily flawed, this would be like saying its fair to deny the Holocaust in order to appease Germans because they support America economically, politics should not interfere with Historical fact.
7- History is not a matter of “conviction, consensus, political resolutions, or propaganda.” History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved for a “competent court” with its legal expertise and due process.
The Armenian Genocide has been historically proven time and time again,
every Turkish counter claim has been refuted, disproven and proved to be made up. The topic has been researched, reviewed, debated and honestly studied, all conclusions that are properly done lead to the fact Armenians were killed in a Genocide. There is a large amount of information that is available which has never been refuted by the Turkish representatives.
8- What we witness today amounts to lynching of the Turks by Armenians to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry. American values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet. Unprovoked , unjustified, and unfair defamation of Turkey, one of America’s closest allies in the troubled Middle East, in order to appease some nagging Armenian activists runs counter to American interests.
This entirely unfair to claim that Armenians as a people hate Turks, Turkey has been proven guilty (a fact many countries agree with oddly) by objective parties. I find personally hypocritical of Turkey itself to question freedom of speech as Turkey has freedom of speech violations (in addition people being killed due to their views such as Hrant Dink) as is the case with Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam, Fatma Gocek. American (or any other national) interests should not stand in the way of truth and justice, one of the founding principals of America is "Justice for all", interests, whether economical, political or whatever cannot be used as an excuse not to see the truth of a situation, otherwise we fail Democracy.
9- Hate-based proclamations, such as Schiff’s HR 106, have never been an American way to do business. Why start now?
I would like Mr Kirlikovali to enlighten me how calling an historically proven Genocide what is hatred, will we next claim that the US accepting that there was a Holocaust and so forth as Hate Speech, if anything according to alot of countries laws denying Genocide is Hate Speech.
10- Those who claim genocide verdict today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in “conviction and execution without due process”. Last time I looked in the dictionary, that was the definition of “lynch mobs”.
The evidence has yet to be properly discredited by due process
.Armenians are not lynching Turks, nor doing anything similar, they just want closure, just like any victim.
Isn’t it time for Armenians to stop fighting the First World War and give peace a chance?
Isn't it time to let go of that Anti Armenian hate and issue an apology, its easy to issue an apology, Germany could, why can't Turkey
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