Conscientious Turks

[ardakilic]

That means Turks were ultra-maniacs killing every living thing on their lands? Armenians... and now Greeks.. next? Persians? Prussian Genocide?

Thats right the point that I can not understand. Why it becomes a genocide when Turks kill (Which is not a rightfulact of course)? And when Turks deny that, why do they become 'shameless'?

However, as I said before, when someone says that 'Armenians killed Turkish civilians' you can simply deny it and you want me (FORCE ME) to agree with you.

Remember Hojali please, Armenia is not an angel fallen from the sky. Of course they did killed, thousands, maybe hundrends of thousands people too with the passion of independence and free Armenia.

Which part shall i correct?

1. Genocide is intend to extermination of a nation. Caution: Intend is enough!

2. Some of Armenians who were let to return their lands attempted to revenge acts after 1918. Revenge of Genocide! Of course they were atrocities but not Genocide. See: Genocide Convention of UN.

3. Read the Hodjali thread in this forum.

[hipeter924]

That means Turks were ultra-maniacs killing every living thing on their lands? Armenians... and now Greeks.. next? Persians? Prussian Genocide?

Thats right the point that I can not understand. Why it becomes a genocide when Turks kill (Which is not a rightfulact of course)? And when Turks deny that, why do they become 'shameless'?

However, as I said before, when someone says that 'Armenians killed Turkish civilians' you can simply deny it and you want me (FORCE ME) to agree with you.

Remember Hojali please, Armenia is not an angel fallen from the sky. Of course they did killed, thousands, maybe hundrends of thousands people too with the passion of independence and free Armenia.

Well you obviously hate the Turkish Republic then, after all the founder of the Turkish republic recognized the Armenian genocide by calling the whole genocide a stain on Turkey's reputation, its only in this time that the Turkish government denies it.

As for Armenians killing Turks? How do you define this. Are Armenians murderers for wanting to defend their land they held for thousands of years before the Turkish state even existed? Because any killing that happened was because of this occupation. But even then all the Armenians were away fighting for Turkey and the civilians were disarmed by the Turkish government, which the Turkish government took as an opportunity to attempt to wipe out the Armenian people.

Finally for Armenia itself I have this to say, there is no such thing as a nation being a heaven on Earth, every nation in its history has done something distasteful (for Turkey this is the Armenian Genocide). But may I ask you has any Empire (Ottoman, British, German, Austro-Hungarian, French and others) been perfect? No. Empire itself is immoral and racist, read up some more.

[ardakilic]

1- Removing is not extermination since Turks left the ones in Western Coast. And officially, Ottoman state did not kill Armenians or did not give orders to 'kill' civilians. So, according to the international treaties, this is not a genocide. Armenians claim that Turks did, but it is just a letter, which could not be proven to be a genuine order.

Also, it must be easy for educated people like you to guess, if it were an official mass-murdering; such a large state as Ottomans, there should be dozens of documents about that 'execution' orders. Hence, there were dozens of armies and military units and governors in that area.

However, I accept that many Armenians in cities like Sivas, were not involved and exiling them a big mistake and was unfair.

2- Ah... so if you could kill and keep it out of the term of 'Genocide', that makes you 'less guilty'

PERFECT!

1. "Deportations" also occured in Smirna, Eskisehir, Ankara so "line of battle" argument is not valid.

2. Cleansing and destruction of Ottoman Archives is a very serious issue.

3. Although Archives are destroyed, there are decrees and telegrams of Talat that can easily lead us a well-orchestrated mass extermination.

4. You cannot see the logic of law. Let me try to explain it with an example:
- If i beat you, this is a crime and i was tried for "harming a person".
- But if policeman beats you, it is violating the human right.

Because: State is powerful and humans are weak. Laws are organized to protect people from uncontrolled power of state.

[hipeter924]

I hate to reply in two different person in one topic but well.

I do not hate Turkish Republic, since the founder of her did not recognized it. Anyway, even if he did, it does not bind me. People need to be convinced to accept something.

Empire itself were not racist, but maybe CUP was close to that. You can not claim a state of 600 years just because of an (illegal) rule of 10 years. CUP was not elected, they used force for it.

Whatsmore, Ottomans never used the term of 'Empire' or defined themselves as an Empire.

All Armenians were not away for fighting Turkey, as we know many were serving under Russians and those tashnak groups or fedayis were not unities of old people and children.

The founder did recognize it, though never mind. An Irving copycat never learns.

So what? A few rebels? Okay. I assume by this flawed logic, all Arabs are terrorists. Yeah right.

All Empires are racist, read up again. Empires generally have one or more races subjecting and controlling others which the Ottoman Turks did do, the Turks at the top, the Kurds second, everyone else third.

[ardakilic]

1- I agree (and said that before)

2- So serious, not even a single 'kill'em all' order left, and you believe that?

3- Talat... pfft, that man was trouble. And that 'telegram' you mention, i mentioned it too. Telegrams are his personal ideas and have no value, we need official proofs.

4- In Hojali, it was Armenian army mass-killing people. That is definitely human right. And if you hit me and police does nothing, that is also an issue of human rights.

Second, I do not believe -there are no signs of- that Ottoman soldiers mass-killed Armenian civilians. I repeat, 'civilians'.

2. Even in Jewish Holocaust, you cant find such an order.

3. Talat's telegrams are his personal ideas and not official proof!!!

He is Interior Ministry not a peasant!!!

4. I repeat: Read Hodjali thread in the forum.

There are lots of events Ottoman 'jandarma' attacked and killed and raped Armenian convoys. Also some of them were tried in Ottoman courts (after the fall of dicatatorship of Enver-Talat-Cemal) and some were hanged.

[ardakilic]

İbrahim Arvas

İbrahim Arvas was a Van deputy in the Ottoman parliament, he was in the city at the time, where he reported that the CUP was secretly provoking people to attack Armenians.

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=%C4%B0brahim_Avras

Note: His surname written wrong in Armeniapedia, Avras. It should be Arvas.

[bell-the-cat]

Kurds have officially apologized for the Armenian Genocide, the Turkish government has not.

Kurds have not "officially apologised". A few Kurdish organisations in Europe might have, for their own self-interests, but that's as far as it goes. And they have no idea about what they are apologising for. If they had, they would remain silent because the horrors of some 500 years worth of rapes, pillages, and massacres by Kurds would go against the public image they want to present themselves as.

[hipeter924]

Kurds have not "officially apologised". A few Kurdish organisations in Europe might have, for their own self-interests, but that's as far as it goes. And they have no idea about what they are apologising for. If they had, they would remain silent because the horrors of some 500 years worth of rapes, pillages, and massacres by Kurds would go against the public image they want to present themselves as.

Well at least some have then, still better than denying anything happened.