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All Empires Are Evil

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  • #21
    Originally posted by ardakilic
    Civilize me white man!
    What do you think I am trying to do? Just kidding.
    I do not consider turks black and Armenians white. I just consider turks as turks and Armenians as Armenians. Got anything against it?
    I have been there... I have seen ruins of St. Karapet!

    Comment

    • #22
      Originally posted by VaheTheGreat(e) View Post
      What do you think I am trying to do? Just kidding.
      I do not consider turks black and Armenians white. I just consider turks as turks and Armenians as Armenians. Got anything against it?
      If i sum up:
      - No territory, including Armenia is "pure". So, either peaceful or bloody, if it is tried to establish a nation-state, you have to purify the population.
      - Every people or nation or ethnicity, including Turks, have their own culture, religion, language and civilization.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by ardakilic View Post
        If i sum up:
        - No territory, including Armenia is "pure". So, either peaceful or bloody, if it is tried to establish a nation-state, you have to purify the population.
        - Every people or nation or ethnicity, including Turks, have their own culture, religion, language and civilization.
        Nation-state does not necessarily means "Turkey". It does not necessary means "no ethnical minorities". Nation -state can perfectly integrate ethnical minorities with their cultural freedom and it still will be a nation-state. Do you know that in Latvia Russians are almost 60% of population and they are still considered minority?

        Do they really? Do you concider Ottoman culture turkish? Or do you concider Mongols as a civilization?
        I have been there... I have seen ruins of St. Karapet!

        Comment

        • #24
          Originally posted by VaheTheGreat(e) View Post
          Nation-state does not necessarily means "Turkey". It does not necessary means "no ethnical minorities". Nation -state can perfectly integrate ethnical minorities with their cultural freedom and it still will be a nation-state. Do you know that in Latvia Russians are almost 60% of population and they are still considered minority?
          Yep, nation state doesnot necessarily mean Turkey and when i say nation-state Turkey was not the only country in my mind. I have two arguments:

          Theoretically, defining nation as a political entity is problematic.

          Practically, all nation-states had passed or have been passing a process of "purification" either bloody or peaceful.

          Comment

          • #25
            Originally posted by VaheTheGreat(e) View Post
            Do they really? Do you concider Ottoman culture turkish? Or do you concider Mongols as a civilization?
            No, i told nothing about Ottoman civilization in terms of Turkish identity. I see Ottoman culture as a "melting-pot" of cultures and it was successful with its mistakes till the end of 19th century.

            Mongols as a civilization. Can you define me who Mongols are?

            Comment

            • #26
              Originally posted by ardakilic View Post
              Yep, nation state doesnot necessarily mean Turkey and when i say nation-state Turkey was not the only country in my mind. I have two arguments:

              Theoretically, defining nation as a political entity is problematic.

              Practically, all nation-states had passed or have been passing a process of "purification" either bloody or peaceful.
              I do not agree. There are very clear definitions of nation given by various historical personalities. One of them is "the group of people sharing the same language, culture and ethnical origins"(some times also religion).
              And why "purification" but not "integration" (I emphasize Integration not assimilation)? I can give you number of examples... Purification is the barbaric way of creation of the nation but not the only way for creation of the nation-state
              I have been there... I have seen ruins of St. Karapet!

              Comment

              • #27
                Originally posted by VaheTheGreat(e) View Post
                I do not agree. There are very clear definitions of nation given by various historical personalities. One of them is "the group of people sharing the same language, culture and ethnical origins"(some times also religion).
                And why "purification" but not "integration" (I emphasize Integration not assimilation)? I can give you number of examples... Purification is the barbaric way of creation of the nation but not the only way for creation of the nation-state
                -OK, let us go further for the definition of nation. Language is OK. But can you define rigorously (scientifically) the culture of a nation? And more dangerous one i think, ethnical origin. I stated before in personal but i can generalize it: The only distinct thing that makes a nation is language which seperates one to another. And if you can define culture in context of language, it is OK too: literature, sayings, idioms etc.

                -Is the difference between "integration" and "purification" blood or force?

                -Turkey experience and example: If we only stay at discourse side, Kemalist nationalism is pro-integration rather than purification. It self-proclaims that there is no necessity to be Turk by blood but it is enough to feel and call oneself Turk. Also it recognizes minorities (namely: Armenians, Greeks and Jews but for example not Kurds) officially as well.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by ardakilic View Post
                  -OK, let us go further for the definition of nation. Language is OK. But can you define rigorously (scientifically) the culture of a nation? And more dangerous one i think, ethnical origin. I stated before in personal but i can generalize it: The only distinct thing that makes a nation is language which seperates one to another. And if you can define culture in context of language, it is OK too: literature, sayings, idioms etc.
                  One dose not have to be a scientist for defining a culture. And no it is not just language based literature, sayings, idioms, it is also Architecture, Fine Arts, Music,Religion, Statism and scinse as part of a culture as well….and so on.


                  [/QUOTE]-Is the difference between "integration" and "purification" blood or force?[/QUOTE]

                  Actually I have emphasized “integration” not “assimilation”. Integration means preserving your ethnical identity and enjoying a cultural and political freedom as minority. And integration is not possible by force even in countries like Turkey.

                  [/QUOTE]-Turkey experience and example: If we only stay at discourse side, Kemalist nationalism is pro-integration rather than purification. It self-proclaims that there is no necessity to be Turk by blood but it is enough to feel and call oneself Turk. Also it recognizes minorities (namely: Armenians, Greeks and Jews but for example not Kurds) officially as well.[/QUOTE]

                  I do not think throwing out all flowers and leaving just tulips is very “pro-integration”
                  I repeat Integration and Assimilation are 2 different things all around world but not in turkey apparently…
                  I have been there... I have seen ruins of St. Karapet!

                  Comment

                  • #29
                    Originally posted by VaheTheGreat(e) View Post
                    I do not think throwing out all flowers and leaving just tulips is very “pro-integration”
                    I repeat Integration and Assimilation are 2 different things all around world but not in turkey apparently…
                    It does not seem a true story historically. Kemalists claim that by doing this Kemal aimed to show Ismet "if you assume a hostile attitude against minorities, you do as what i did this garden". A fable for kids!

                    My condition: If you stay at discourse side... namely if you only look at discourse of him.

                    Comment

                    • #30
                      Originally posted by ardakilic View Post
                      Mongols as a civilization. Can you define me who Mongols are?
                      Good question.
                      I consider Mongols all barbaric tribes which came to Anatolia (and not only) from middle Asia
                      I have been there... I have seen ruins of St. Karapet!

                      Comment

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