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Bloody Turk!

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  • #11
    Re: Bloody Turk!

    The CUP was the party that personally conducted all the illegal, cover operations to genocide the Armenians. They formed brigades out of criminals released from prison for their so called "Special Operations". The lines of communication between this criminal force and the army were neatly divided, because had the army conducted the so called "Deportations" of the armenians, we would've been clothed, fed and sheltered. Instead, the civil authorities were given the command to round us up and carry our caravan to the provincial border to meet up with the next province's escort team. Most of the time, this escort team was none other than these criminal brigades, which stripped the Armenians naked, brutally killed the old men, raped the young women, fed nobody... if anyone from the caravans reached Der Zor (one of the final destinations for the Armenians under the CUP's "deportation" plan, it was nothing short of a miracle. If anyone survived at Der Zor (as the conditions there were equally hopeless), there are no words to explain how much they've defied the laws of nature, of negligence and brutality.

    Your wonderful CUP, Enver, Talat and Cemal made a mockery, a disgrace of your government and efforts of addressing the social problems with the Christian minorities of Turkey. They managed to create a fabricated line of history for all the Turks in future generations to eat up as truth concerning their treatment of the "Armenian Question". We cannot face the past together with Turks until we all recognize ths together.

    I recommend you check out the book "A Shameful Act" by Taner Akcam, a Turk who recognizes this reality and knows that history will just repeat itself if we don't face the truth and the horror of what happened. Germans today recognize the Holocaust and all its grim details, but Turkey is almost 100 years behind in facing its horrendous crimes.

    In exchange, you may recommend any Turkish denialist author for me and I will read him, compare his book with Akcam's and send you back my comments.
    Last edited by jgk3; 09-22-2009, 05:28 AM.
    I was taught how to think.

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    • #12
      Re: Bloody Turk!

      Originally posted by Yakamoz View Post
      When I read ' deep state ' I gave up to reading this article.

      Personally, I don't believe ' deep state ' paranoia, If it really exited, they would kill mnore many people.

      Hrant Dink was killed by idiot-ignorant racists that was not a deep state.

      If you continue to call such crime syndicate as ' deep state " , they will be aggrandized.
      That is absolutely wrong.

      And the another mistake is, this guty doesn't know ' Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) ' they can be considered as a step for republican improvement for Turkey, their movement was against to ' monarchy ' They made a great step for parliamentary system so the democracy of course. Turkish-Armenian ethnic tension can't be tied only CUP and their actions. The problem goes more before. This is the second mistake, that I don't agree.


      ---------------------------------

      The racist that killed Dink did not act alone. He was provided a weapon and ecouragement by others.
      Hayastan or Bust.

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      • #13
        Re: Bloody Turk!

        Originally posted by Yakamoz View Post
        When I read ' deep state ' I gave up to reading this article.

        Personally, I don't believe ' deep state ' paranoia, If it really exited, they would kill mnore many people.

        Hrant Dink was killed by idiot-ignorant racists that was not a deep state.

        If you continue to call such crime syndicate as ' deep state " , they will be aggrandized.
        That is absolutely wrong.
        Deep state is not a paranoia, it is a fact. Its deepness is not confined to Turkish soil, but international borders as well. There are various articles, books about it, and they are surely not fantasy-fiction articles/books.

        Incidents such as Susurluk made it heard by people, but Ugur Mumcu gave the names of people involved in Susurluk accident years before it happened (you can find his TV speech on internet - I don't post it here because it is in Turkish, so does not apply to all). With a very odd coincidence Ugur Mumcu was working on connections of deep state before his car was blown up. After the dust cloud of accusing Islamists for the crime disappeared, people started to realize that pointing out Islamists was a perfect distraction given the general public's concerns back then.

        Whether deep state killed Hrant can be a discussion, but discussing its existence, or taking "deep state" lightly just based on the fact that there are not many closed cases, is dangerous. There are many killings in Turkey for which the victims body dissolved into molecules but the murderers are still unknown. Within that respect, you cannot make a healty head count of how many people were killed by deep state or a lunatic. The only reason people are talking about deep-state about Hrant's murdering instead of talking about a fanatic is because people LEARNED to avoid distractions. Actually, people are probably correct given that the information flow about his murder followed a weird path, including the capture of the murderer.

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        • #14
          Re: Bloody Turk!

          Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
          The racist that killed Dink did not act alone. He was provided a weapon and ecouragement by others.
          Its being revealed that the killer got help from the terrorist organization informally known as 'Deep State'.

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          • #15
            Re: Bloody Turk!

            Originally posted by Army View Post
            Its being revealed that the killer got help from the terrorist organization informally known as 'Deep State'.
            Teroris organization "Deep State"? I always thought that turkish army is the "Deep state"

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            • #16
              Re: Bloody Turk!

              Originally posted by Krdakan View Post
              Teroris organization "Deep State"? I always thought that turkish army is the "Deep state"
              Welcome to the Forum Krdakan.
              B0zkurt Hunter

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              • #17
                A critique of "Bloody Turk"

                A critque of my article "Bloody Turk" by Mr.Greg
                Sarkissian




                Greg Sarkissian , Sep 23 2009 14:01, Wednesday

                I am Armenian by ethnicity, and a Canadian citizen. My mother and father were born in Urfa. Of my father’s 11-person family, only he and one brother survived the “massacres” of 1915, conducted by those who had a certain “mindset” to eliminate the Armenians from Anatolia. My mother’s family, 7 in all, was saved by a “righteous Turk,” Haji Halil, who hid, fed and protected them for almost a year and helped them escape to safety in Aleppo. I grew up in an Anatolian family with both these stories as part of my consciousness. In her prayers, my mother almost daily praised the memory of Haji Halil, whereas my father sang the Turkish song, “Penjaradan kar galior ghurbat bena zor galior aman ane ghurbat bena zor galior,” whenever he was happy or sad, always yearning for his home in Anatolia. I grew up hearing my grandmother use Turkish idioms in describing social behaviour, such as “aski dost dushman almas.” I grew up eating Turkish dishes, whose names are still used in my home, by my own children, who are born and raised in Canada, such as Urfale kebab, imam bayilde, su beoyraye, and ishli keofte. In my professional life, I have worked with Turkish partners, and I personally have sung Turkish songs with Turkish scholars and students visiting the Zoryan Institute. Ninety-four years later, and even though I have never seen Anatolia, I feel that historically and culturally, I belong there, and I also sing “Penjaradan kar galior ghurbat bena zor galior aman ane ghurbat bena zor galior,” as my father did. I also happen to be one of the founders and the president of the Zoryan Institute, which organizes the genocide course referred to by Mr. Cengiz in his article. Therefore, I read the article with great interest. His credentials as a human rights defender emerge clearly in the article, where he talks about massacres of Armenians orchestrated and organized by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP). His honesty in covering modern Turkish history is reflected in the statement, “as a result of the lack of confrontation with our past, the CUP and its gangs changed their format and turned into the ‘deep state’ in Turkey.” He continues analyzing the Republican era and explains clearly the continued manipulation of history by the inheritors of the CUP, which “drenched Turkey with blood.” Most importantly, Mr. Cengiz highlights the fact that the Turkish government created “the official Turkish history, one in which there is no place for Armenians.” Seeing his analysis of modern Turkish history (post-1915), one infers that Mr. Cengiz would have labelled the massacres as genocide, if the political environment in Turkey and the penal code permitted him to have freedom of expression. Mr. Cengiz bravely raises one of the most sensitive issues of Turkish-Armenian relations when he says, “And the state is in complete denial of what happened in Turkey in the past.” He goes on to state, “This denial unfortunately gives strong support to a racist approach toward Turkey and its people.” It is widely accepted by genocide specialists that denial by the perpetrator is the last stage of genocide, and indeed, the descendants of genocide survivors experience the pain of this denial as the continuation of genocide. Therefore, I agree with Mr. Cengiz when he asserts, “Complete and blanket denial feeds complete and absolute labeling. This is a vicious circle. It is very unfortunate that some Armenians [emphasis added], while believing they are seeking justice, have turned into hopeless racists….” Mr. Cengiz uses the genocide course organized by the International Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies (A Division of the Zoryan Institute) to make the point that “…when it came to the Armenian genocide, though, we only heard the word “Turks.” Despite the fact that Mr. Cengiz describes it as “an extremely interesting course on genocide….[in which] all lecturers gave exemplary presentations, and I felt I had really learned something,” he unfortunately gives the false impression that he found anti-Turkish racists at the course. In responding to this latter point, I quote the course’s director and Chair of the International Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies, Prof. Roger W. Smith: As the director of the Genocide and Human Rights University Program, I attended all sessions of the seminar. My recollection of the discussion of the Armenian Genocide is quite different: the lecturer referred to the Young Turk regime or government when describing the enactment of the genocide; the readings from Taner Akcam specifically mentioned that speaking of Turks and Armenians creates a false sense of “otherness;” and the students generally refrained from invoking the word “Turks” with regard to the genocide; finally, the discussions in class were civil and not aimed at any person or group. On the latter point, I mention at the outset of the seminar that while we will have differences of opinion, we must show respect and civility in disagreement. And the students over the eight year existence of the program have generally honored that demand. While I think there are many good statements in the article, the rhetoric gets out of hand when the author declares that “some Armenians” [who, how many, where?] have turned into “hopeless racists.” Such persons, in at least small numbers, can be said to exist in any country, but Cengiz’s remark comes close to insinuating that most Armenians are racists who believe that “Every Turk, every individual living in Turkey, is just a murderer …” Perhaps that is his fear, but where is the evidence for it? I can certainly say that this is not true of our students: they know that ethnicity is not a matter of “goodness” and “badness;” and the course discusses Ottoman citizens (some Turks, some Kurds, some Arab) who risked their lives to save Armenians. No academic program is perfect, but I sincerely believe that the Zoryan seminar has helped to bring persons from a variety of religions, ethnicities, and nationalities closer together through understanding and personal encounter. The Genocide and Human Rights University Program is a comprehensive, graduate-level seminar taught by some ten leading international experts in their fields. It incorporates genocide theory, history, sociology, political science and international law, and through a comparative analysis of several case studies (such as the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur) and a number of special themes. It explores such issues as the foundations of human rights, the preconditions for genocide, patterns of genocide, denial of genocide, international politics and genocide, international law and genocide, reconciliation between victim and perpetrator group, and the prevention of genocide. The Armenian Genocide is taught in comparison with other cases; it is taught through an understanding of the development of Turkish nationalism during the decline of the Ottoman Empire; and it is taught that the radical wing of Ittihad ve Terakki, not the Turkish people as a whole, were responsible. As an institute, we have strived to bring out historical truth, while promoting understanding between Armenians and Turks. We take public positions on matters of principle; our stand led to our criticism of the proposed French law to criminalize denial of the Armenian Genocide; we took that position because we stand not only for truth, but also freedom of expression. We also stand for reconciliation and have stated that any step towards reconciliation is positive. I share Mr. Cengiz’ sentiment that “’We all are Hrant Dink.’ We all need to be Dink if we wish to contribute to reconciliation.” But what is reconciliation, if not first, stopping the denial, acknowledging the crime, demonstrating sincere remorse, providing clear signs of atonement acceptable to the victims, and finally forgiveness? Only these steps can result in mutual trust and true reconciliation. We must remember that among his many statements, Hrant observed that even if you had put the victims on a golden airplane and transfer them to another place, that in itself would still be considered a genocide. I would like to express my heartfelt appreciation of Mr. Cengiz’ effort to educate and inform his fellow citizens about the nature of the divide between our two peoples, even though in the process he gave a mistaken impression about our course. In the spirit of his effort, I wish to share a few words that I gave as a representative of Zoryan at a 1995 conference, the first on the Genocide in independent Armenia: I want to extend my hand to the people of Turkey, to ask them to remember that though, at one time, the state was led by mass murderers, they also had their Haji Halils, and that it would honor the memory of the latter to acknowledge the overwhelming truth of genocide, to express regrets, so that the healing process may begin for our two peoples. Because without this healing, mass extermination as a tool of political dominance may become more common in the future.
                "All truth passes through three stages:
                First, it is ridiculed;
                Second, it is violently opposed; and
                Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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