Kurds and Armenians

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

If you ever followed Armenian religious sermons etc the cleric never says “you be forgiven” but instead “May God forgive you”.

So my definition is very much to the Armenian church that I am aware of.

However, from Matthew, Chapter 6

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[Armeniansurfer]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

Hi Bell and Cat also Londontsi,

Ok.... so what do you do when one of these guy's atones for what they did?? This is my point.

You had the two criminals on each side of the side of the cross, one repented. How do handle when one of these Kurdish fellows repents?? So let's continue on that bases.

My Grand dad was a Tashnak revolutionary. He had a white horse and a rifle, went around killing the bad guy's. I understand were you are coming from. But if we can find righteous Kurds who want to atone for what their Grandparents did, we should at least listen to them.

"Seeking forgiveness also involves righting the wrong." or asking for forgiveness. What do you do if this happens??

The Armenian priests I knew, as we have had many discussions in my youth, hold forgiveness as something central. As a youth I definitely held you ideas. And as I recalled I was quite irritated at the poor priest....

I want to send you an a link to an article. Regarding the Kurdish Mayor of Tigranagert. Give me your honest opinion of this fellow. Should we really hate this guy. Please check it out. It is very interesting.

"Seeking forgiveness also involves righting the wrong." I think this fellow is trying to do this. I would like to center the discussion regarding those kurds who what to address "the Genocide". Can we agree on that. You will find this most interesting.

Just check this guy out.

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/10/29/demirbas/

Saludos,

John

[Armeniansurfer]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I doubt that. You may sincerely think you are, but few "Christians" are actually Christians. Your opinion that you cannot give forgiveness to others for what those others did to a third party, if you want to attach it to a religion, is actually very Islamic in outlook.

What Kurds and Turks need to do is just have full understanding and acceptance of what happened, not give mostly for show apologies that may mean different things to different people. Do they even know what they are apologising for?

Yup, everyone struggles being a Good Christian. I would be lying if I said I a good Christian.

My intention was to open a discussion on how to deal with a "righteous Kurd" Should we keep hating them? after he said he is very sorry? My encounters have been with Kurds who I believe were sincere. These were educated people with a full knowledge of the atrocities. Maybe others had encounters that were negative, mine were not.

The Turks I have met seem to think they did not kill anyone or that it was a great idea......I get angry just thinking of them.

But please check this link out and see what you think. I was very surprised... I also have it in another post. I think after reading this it may change the discussion a bit.



http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/10/29/demirbas/


John

Puerto Escondido, Mexico

[londontsi]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

If I was a doctor looking signs to pass judgement on a patient my observations would be as follows.

My Grand dad was a Tashnak revolutionary

We do not ( I certainly don't ) live in a feudal society (and mentality).
Your development as a human and as an Armenian is dependent on your own achievements and not your grand father or your grand grand father.

I want to send you an a link to an article. Regarding the Kurdish Mayor of Tigranagert. Give me your honest opinion of this fellow. Should we really hate this guy. Please check it out. It is very interesting.

"Seeking forgiveness also involves righting the wrong." I think this fellow is trying to do this. I would like to center the discussion regarding those kurds who what to address "the Genocide". Can we agree on that. You will find this most interesting.

Just check this guy out.

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/10/29/demirbas/

I have already said

Smart people (politically) learn from others mistakes.
Unlucky ones from their own mistakes.

Dum people never learn.

Kurds today have no authority constitutionally or otherwise to decide or rectify results of the event that happened nearly 100 years ago in present day Turkey.
However they are (morally) guilty since they were (their ancestors were voluntary ) party to those events.

For Turks this is an ideal trap for Armenians, projecting an impression that significant changes happening to the benefit of the Armenians.
The reality is this is only skin deep and is only to the benefit of the naive Armenian, unfortunately we have enough of those in the guise of good Christians and whatever else.

Saludos,

John

You seem already comfortable and proud with your new identity.
It appears to be below you to salute in Armenian in an Armenian forum.

Assimilation mostly describes erosion round the edges.
You obviously happy it has gone to your core and happy you have passed the point of no return.

[Mos]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

@Armeniansurfer

Kurds can go to hell along with Turks. They killed probably more Armenians than Turks, they did the dirty work of the Turks. They betrayed their neighbours for some quick riches and lands. They still remain today a backwards, mountain people, nothing good has come out of them. The only thing they are good at is looting and killing.

[londontsi]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I doubt that. You may sincerely think you are, but few "Christians" are actually Christians. Your opinion that you cannot give forgiveness to others for what those others did to a third party, if you want to attach it to a religion, is actually very Islamic in outlook.

As a matter of fact forgiveness for “third party” the Islamic way is through “blood money”,
something that does not exist or practiced by Christians.

[londontsi]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I want to send you an a link to an article. Regarding the Kurdish Mayor of Tigranagert. Give me your honest opinion of this fellow. Should we really hate this guy. Please check it out. It is very interesting.

"Seeking forgiveness also involves righting the wrong." I think this fellow is trying to do this. I would like to center the discussion regarding those kurds who what to address "the Genocide". Can we agree on that. You will find this most interesting.

Just check this guy out.

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/10/29/demirbas/

You have an early reply.
In politics you must be so careful who do you put your bet on.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-262078-prosecutor-seeks-up-to-28-years-in-prison-for-diyarbakir-mayor-baydemir.html

Prosecutor seeks up to 28 years in prison for Diyarbakır Mayor Baydemir




Diyarbakır Mayor Osman Baydemir faces up to 28 years in prison on charges of spreading propaganda for a terrorist organization and committing a crime on behalf of a terrorist organization without holding membership.


An indictment filed against Baydemir, a member of Turkey's pro-Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party (BDP), by the Diyarbakır Public Prosecutor's Office was accepted by the Diyarbakır 7th High Criminal Court on Tuesday. The indictment says Baydemir attended the funeral of seven terrorists from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in April 2011 in Diyarbakır. The indictment accuses Baydemir of spreading propaganda for the PKK in a demonstration held in Diyarbakır to protest the killing of the seven terrorists by Turkish security forces.

Stating that Baydemir most recently attended a protest held to protest the capture of jailed PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan in Kenya on Feb. 15, 1999 on its anniversary, the indictment accuses Baydemir of showing solidarity with Öcalan and spreading propaganda for the PKK during this demonstration as well.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

As a matter of fact forgiveness for “third party” the Islamic way is through “blood money”,
something that does not exist or practiced by Christians.

That is not "third party" - that is just one party (the wronged) seeking or getting financial compensation from another party, from the person who did the wrong (or from his/her immediate relatives).

(Ignoring philosophical arguments that to deny genocide is to commit it) nobody alive today took part in the Armenian Genocide, so there is nobody around to pay "blood money". What I meant by "third party" was a sense of collective guilt and a need to atone for what non-specific ancestors within your ethnic or cultural group committed. There is no concept of, or tradition of, that being done in Islam.

[londontsi]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

That is not "third party" - that is just one party (the wronged) seeking or getting financial compensation from another party, from the person who did the wrong (or from his/her immediate relatives).

(Ignoring philosophical arguments that to deny genocide is to commit it) nobody alive today took part in the Armenian Genocide, so there is nobody around to pay "blood money". What I meant by "third party" was a sense of collective guilt and a need to atone for what non-specific ancestors within your ethnic or cultural group committed. There is no concept of, or tradition of, that being done in Islam.

I find your observation irrelevant.

Present day Turkey is a secular state, so we are told.
As far as I am aware the courts there are not Islamic (practising Sharia Law).
As I mentioned blood money has never been raised since its not in our religion/culture.
There are few Islamic countries who apply Sharia Law to non Muslims.

Most importantly it would be farcical to seek justice in the courts of the accused.


Coming to my original issue which was “offering forgiveness”.

The crime was organised and perpetrated by the State and its agents.
This is well established with research and documentary evidence.

Present day Turkey is the inheritor of the previous regimes.
Also there is undeniable evidence that they pursued similar policies and objectives.

Turkey is uneasy.
Proof, change in its posture and attitude over time albeit not accepting any liability despite indefensible evidence.

Why this change.
Clearly they are playing for time using some cosmetic gestures.
I have to say very clumsily and great embarrassment to itself.

Therefore the “parties” are,

Firstly the Turkish state and its agents, who are not be alive and cannot be answerable personally, but the state is.
Secondly the victims at personal level, who also not alive and the survivors, the Nation, whatever was left of them similarly not alive now because of time .
Thirdly the present day Nation (the inheritors) and the State that represents them.

My point is present day Nation individually or the State of Armenia cannot offer forgiveness.
The reason, because they did bear the suffering personally.

Also forgiveness implies “lets forget about it”.
These dark event are part of our history.
You cannot change history by forgiving events in history.

It is not surprising one of the tactics of Turkey is to rewrite history.
That would be a very convenient shortcut to close the whole issue and pulling the rug under our feet.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I find your opinion relevant only in that it reinforces my opinion that almost everything Armenians do and think in relation to Armenian Genocide recognition is, basically, irrelevant. It is an historical event, but you trivialise it - stop going on as if it is something that has just happened to your immediate family. You wear it as if it were a fashion accessory (for some, a worn once a year one, for others, worn daily).

Your thinking about what you actually want is so muddy that, if you say you want a particular something, and that is then attained, you will then say that it not what you actually wanted - that you want something else. Ultimately it ends by you stating you want the impossible, that alone will be satisfactory. Why should anyone offer anything, move in any way closer, if only offering the impossible will satisfy (an impossible that can never actually be delivered)?

I find your observation irrelevant.

Present day Turkey is a secular state, so we are told.
As far as I am aware the courts there are not Islamic (practising Sharia Law).
As I mentioned blood money has never been raised since its not in our religion/culture.
There are few Islamic countries who apply Sharia Law to non Muslims.

Most importantly it would be farcical to seek justice in the courts of the accused.


Coming to my original issue which was “offering forgiveness”.

The crime was organised and perpetrated by the State and its agents.
This is well established with research and documentary evidence.

Present day Turkey is the inheritor of the previous regimes.
Also there is undeniable evidence that they pursued similar policies and objectives.

Turkey is uneasy.
Proof, change in its posture and attitude over time albeit not accepting any liability despite indefensible evidence.

Why this change.
Clearly they are playing for time using some cosmetic gestures.
I have to say very clumsily and great embarrassment to itself.

Therefore the “parties” are,

Firstly the Turkish state and its agents, who are not be alive and cannot be answerable personally, but the state is.
Secondly the victims at personal level, who also not alive and the survivors, the Nation, whatever was left of them similarly not alive now because of time .
Thirdly the present day Nation (the inheritors) and the State that represents them.

My point is present day Nation individually or the State of Armenia cannot offer forgiveness.
The reason, because they did bear the suffering personally.

Also forgiveness implies “lets forget about it”.
These dark event are part of our history.
You cannot change history by forgiving events in history.

It is not surprising one of the tactics of Turkey is to rewrite history.
That would be a very convenient shortcut to close the whole issue and pulling the rug under our feet.