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Originally posted by -Pyunik-
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I don't really see them as our HISTORICAL enemies... more like our modern political enemies. I have no problems with Jews, in fact 90% of my friends are Jews, but I do have an issue the Jews in politics and the workings of the Israeli government... or as I like to say, the 51st state."All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx -
Originally posted by HyeJinx1984
Two questions:
Do you know who are the Amalekites/Amalekim ?
Do you who are the Donmeh ?Comment
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No, but I have a feeling I'm about to find out.Originally posted by Tigranes"All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl MarxComment
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Originally posted by HyeJinx1984
Amalekites:
Extermination of the Amelekites
As the Jewish Encyclopedia put it, "David waged a sacred war of extermination against the Amalekites," who subsequently disappeared from history. Long after, in the time of Hezekiah, five hundred Simeonites annihilated the last remnant "of the Amalekites that had escaped" on Mount Seir, and settled in their place.(1 Chr. 4:42-43)
The Amalekites existed as early as the time of Abraham in what would later be known as the Roman province of Arabia Petraea [1] (Gen. 14:7). The Biblical relationship between the Hebrew and Amalekite tribes was one of unmitigated enmity. "Go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Sam. 15:3). The Jews manner of dealing with them was extreme, as they could be shown no mercy. Women and children were slain, and no slaves or gold could be taken from them. Rather all were killed, and their valuables were burned. "He betook himself to slay the women and the children, and thought he did not act therein either barbarously or inhumanly; first, because they were enemies whom he thus treated, and, in the next place, because it was done by the command of God, whom it was dangerous not to obey." (Flavius Josephus, Antiquites Judicae, Book VI, Chapter 7)
Symbolism of the Amalekites
In Jewish tradition, the Amalekites came to represent the archetypal enemy of the Jews. For example, Haman, from the Book of Esther, is called the Agagite, which is interpretted as being a descendant of the Amalekite king Agag. The term has been used metaphorically to refer to enemies of Judaism throughout history, including the Nazis, and controversially, by some to refer to the Arabs. The concept has long been used by rabbis (particularly the Baal Shem Tov) to represent the rejection of God, or Atheism. Of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) followed by Orthodox Jews, three refer to the Amalekites: to remember what the Amalekites did to the Jews, to not forget what the Amalekites did to the Jews, and to destroy the Amalekites utterly. The rabbis derived these from Deuteronomy 25:17-18, Exodus 17:14 and 1 Sam. 15:3. Rashi explains the third mitzvah: From man unto woman, from infant unto suckling, from ox unto sheep, so that the name of Amalek not be mentioned even with reference to an animal by saying "This animal belonged to Amalek".
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Jews refer to Armenians as Amalekites
"Armenia is also sometimes called Amalek in some sources, and Jews often referred to Armenians as Amalekites. This is the Byzantine term for the Armenians. It was adopted by the Jews from the Josippon chronicle (tenth century, ch. 64)."
"The Armenians are usually called by the Eastern Jews, Amalekim, perhaps owing to a tradition that they settled in the north, where the present Armenians are found."
"Previously it was populated with Armenians who, because of the extent of their competition in commerce and other good things, were called Amalekites."
"Amasiya. After 1492 (jewish) exiles from Spain settled there in a separate street, where they were merchants and craftsmen. In their neighborhood lived Greeks, and Armenians, popularly called "Amalekites.""
"AMALEKITES: one of the peoples mentioned in the HEBREW BIBLE who were bitter enemies of the ISRAELITES."
"“And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven…For he said, Because the LORD has sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation” (Ex. 17:14-16)."
"God saw that this action was carried out, as I Samuel 15:2-3 records: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not…” Verse 8 reveals that (with the exception of the Amalekite king) Israel “utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.”"
"Although the bulk of the Amalekites were destroyed, there were remnants dispersed among other nations and peoples who continued to vex Israel.
Amalek was the first of nations: but his latter end shall be that he perish forever” (Num. 24:20)."
"That combination of historical vengeance and wish to rid the land of religiously polluting people is very clearly evident in Biblical episodes of genocide, particularly in the injunction to kill all of the Amalekites: And Samuel said to Saul, "Now go a smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (The Holy Bible 1952, Samuel 1, 15, 1?3)"
"Saul's failure to wipe out all the Amalekites and his rather reasonable granting of permission to his men to keep the valuable animals of the Amalekites then becomes one of the main reasons for his downfall. A furious Samuel conveys the Lord's anger, "Because you have rejected the word of the Lord he has also rejected you from being king." (Samuel 1, 15, 23)"
"Later Joshua, who was so ignorant that he was called a fool, became the minister of Moses, and God rewarded his faithful service by making him the successor to Moses. (3) He was designated as such to Moses when, at the bidding of his master, he was carrying on war with the Amalekites. (4) In this campaign God's care of Joshua was plainly seen. Joshua had condemned a portion of the Amalekites to death by lot, and the heavenly sword picked them out for extermination. (5)"
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Donmeh
The Young Turk party was comprised of and founded by Donmeh Jews!
Enver & Tallat were Jews.
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Donmeh (dönme) is a Turkish word for a religious convert. It refers to a group of Jews of the Near East who followed Sabbatai Zevi (also called Shabbatai Zvi) and converted to Islam in 1666. Zevi's conversion is generally understood to have been forced.
While outwardly Muslim, the Donmeh secretly remained Jews, and continued to practice Jewish rituals covertly. They worshipped Sabbatai Zevi as the Messiah and an incarnation of God, observe certain Jewish rituals and pray in Hebrew and Aramaic and secretly celebrate Jewish festivals and fasts. They also observe rituals celebrating Zevi. They interpreted Zevi's conversion in a Kabbalistic way. Zevi had to rescue the bits of God spread among religions by converting to different confessions.
Some of the original Donmeh were Muslims who were converted to Sabbatianism.
There were several branches of the Donmeh. The first was the Ismirli formed in Izmir in what is now Turkey. The second were the Jakubi founded by a successor to Zevi who also made messianic claims. Also were the Othman Baba led by Berechia. This group taught Jacob Frank who led the Frankists in 18th century eastern Europe and the fifth were the Lechli who are of Polish descent who lived in exile in Salonika and Constantinople.
While being accepted by the Muslim society, they only married among themselves which ended in several recessive genetical traits being typical of Donmeh.
Several Donmeh were among the Young Turks, the Turkish intellectuals that claimed for a reform of the Ottoman Empire. At the time of the interchange of Greek and Turkish populations between Turkey and Greece, the Salonika Donmeh tried to be recognized as not Muslims to avoid forced transport to Anatolia.In the Republican era, they strongly supported pro-Western and laïque reforms of Kemal Atatürk, an attitude that bolstered the suspicions of Muslims towards them.
As of 2000, there were an estimated 15,000-50,000 members of the Donmeh, mostly in the cities of Istanbul, Izmir, and Edirne and in the Near East.
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The Jewish Post of New York.January 28, 1994
WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
"It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
By Hillel Halkin
ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to
Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave
the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish
chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official
ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would
lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second
question was.
"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and was
taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired
whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.
Excited and Distressed
I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to call
back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference while
in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called again,"
said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed. "Exactly where
did you get your information from?"
Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must
because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she
said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about it.
Could you please fax us what you know?"
I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the main
square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his lifetime
but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously by
biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week, none even
mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it in print
that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli Entsiklopedya
ha-Ivrit, which begins:
"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman and
founder of the modern Turkish state.
"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in Salonika
and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the belief,
widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family came from
the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to give him a
traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was sent at his
demand to study in a military academy."
Secular Father
The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who took
Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly believed in
Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted carefully
guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's version of
Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his own. Here is
his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
"My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and a
partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a * lay
school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern science.
"In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory after
a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes, and
arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla Kadin with
the traditional ceremony. ...
"Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from the
school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free
preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no
objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions
respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."
Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme fashion,
outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at them?
Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika, close to
the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali Riza,
little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian, Anatolian
and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk" calls Ali Riza a
"shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding Ataturk's reluctance to
disclose more about his family background: "To the child of so mixed an
environment it would seldom occur, wherever his racial loyalties lay, to
inquire too exactly into his personal origins beyond that of his parentage."
Learning Hebrew
Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have asked had
I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing in the
out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of Eliezer
Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew in late
19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in Hebrew
since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper publisher,
writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in Jerusalem one
autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor: " 'Do you see that
Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one* with the bottle of
arrack?' "
" 'Yes.' "
" 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
" 'What's his name?' "
" 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
" 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him I was
startled by his piercing green eyes."
Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet taken the
name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in French, were
largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with large amounts of
arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
"I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an
ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in
this country would do well to join his camp."
During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel, Mustafa
Kemal said at one point:"
'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old, and I
remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me to read
it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "
And Ben-Avi continues:
"He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space. Then he
recalled:
" 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
" 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
" 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our
glasses."
Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt meant
"secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the Doenme,
first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them reached the
National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the confession of
faith:
"Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the Lord
our God, the Lord is one."
It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that Ataturk
remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my knowledge he
confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young Hebrew journalist
whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations in Jerusalem nearly a
decade before he took control of the Turkish army after its disastrous
defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks and founded a secular
Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once and for all, so he
thought - to the mosques.
Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins. Not
only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered close
to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World War I)
looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a reputation
for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering to their
offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by the claim that
it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical commandments under the
new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by Ezer Weizman's
predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi, in his book on
lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
'Saintly Offspring'
"Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles are
put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the
ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night of
Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children born
of such unions are regarded as saintly."
Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason to
believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and continues to
this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes' traditional
practices or social structures still survive in modern Turkey. The community
abandoned Salonika along with the city's other Turkish residents during the
Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its descendants, many of whom are said to
be wealthy businessmen and merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to
have assimilated totally into Turkish life.
After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had
received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the
president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful,
however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The Turkish
government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist
assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little
reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was
a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son. Mustafa
Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.
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I bet you not a single one of my friends has ever heard of an Amalakite. You don't have to convince me to be anti-Israel... I am. I'm just saying most modern Jews living in America don't know or care about any of this stuff. There's a difference between a Jew and an Israeli... I know there doesn't seem like there is, but there is."All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl MarxComment
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Jinx, I beg to differ. There are many Russian-Jewish Communities growing here in Los Angeles, especially around West Hollywood and Fairfax. See, it is true that some American Jews do not really care about old rivalry and are Jews by name only. However, a great majority of them are still very proud of it and tend to hold grudges against their enemies. In a true jews house, you would not find television at all. Why? Well, because it is OK for Jewish adults to corrupt and rot other Human brains, while they keep their children safely away from it.Originally posted by HyeJinx1984
...lol btw...a tip...if one of your Jewish friends asks you if you would like to meet a Jewish Girl...run!Comment
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Old Rivalries and Enemies? Most Jews don't care about Armenians one way or another. Trust me, they got their own xxxx they spend time on, they don't sit around thinking about us and how to hurt us or anything... it's the Turks and Azeris doing that.Originally posted by Hayq
Oh, and most of my friends ARE Jewish girls..."All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl MarxComment
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No, no one really sits down and thinks about it. However, they willnot care about Armenians even if they are dieing. See, to a Jew, if they need to make money or gain power somewhere, it does not matter if 1 person dies or 1 million dies. It is all the same sh*t to them.Comment
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Jews in power yes. But my friend Ari who's never been to israel in his life and isn't religious and only real goal in life to is to become a video game programmer doesn't want to see anyone die. You guys like grouping everyone together... There's a few jews at the time who are running things and the rest that are just going about their daily lives and have no problems with anyone, least of all us. By that logic I fully condone everything Bush does simply because I'm an American.Originally posted by Hayq"All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl MarxComment
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