To all "Hai Dat" champions and Armenian Turk lovers

[Armenian]

Discussions with Turks regarding the Armenian Genocide are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one:

There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

Since some of you here seem capable of varying degrees of rational thought, you should realize that all crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide.

The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead.

Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk. As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its aboriginal lands and, today - there are none.

[winoman]

Moderators - please remove the above post and warn "Armenian" for spamming the forum.

[Armenian]

Moderators - please remove the above post and warn "Armenian" for spamming the forum.

Your very presence here is spamming this discussion forum.

People like you belong in an Istanbul freak show.

If I had to be an Armenian like you, I would much rather prefer to be aTurk.

[bell-the-cat]

i got kinda carried away... short fuse that i have...


anyway..i want to ask you something...can you watch Turkish television and if you can how clear is it?

It's my experience that Turkish TV isn't clear even in Turkey! How can you tolerate it? Near constant scrolling advertising bars running over the bottom 25% of the screen. And you might be in the critical moments of a movie's plot, and up pops on the screen a stupid little animated cartoon character jumping about and advertising soap powder or something. And the commercial breaks last for ages, and break up programs without any consideration as to where the advertising break actually occurs (often 3 minutes before the end of a film they stick in a 5 minute break!) And they never allow any program credits to be shown. And as for the actual programs, least said about them the better.

The disturbing thing is that I see all the same things now occuring in British TV.

[Otto]

i was working on a conspiracy theory thats why i asked about Turkish tv.... i can say if you can watch Turkish tv for 2 hours you can reach nirvana ,it just tests the nerves lol.... you are completely right bell-the-cat....

[messiah33]

turkish didnt rcognize armenian genicide! bastards

turkish regime in 1915 was racist regime they wanted armenian territory
armenian wasent ready and for a fact they thought that turkish want to help them
they afraid to recognize because they know that made mastke and they dont wanna pay for it bastards i say xxxx turkis goverment they hitler love and take his jew genocid for an example men turkish are non human

[bell-the-cat]

I know that vagueness is a requirement for most wannabe prophets, but Messiah's Messianic ramblings are as clear as mud.

[bell-the-cat]

i was working on a conspiracy theory thats why i asked about Turkish tv..

So, was the question you were asking "can you get Turkish TV in Armenia"?

For terrestrial broadcasts yes you can, close to the border areas anyway, and you can watch Armenian TV in Kars and Igdir.

[Armenian]

Some very revealing commentary from one of Armenia's wealthiest and most influential political activists.

Armenian

CHAIRMAN OF WAC ARA ABRAHAMIAN SHARING WITH HIS THOUGHTS ON RUSSIA, DEMOCRACY AND ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS

http://www.azg.am/IMAGE/200510104.jpg

-Is that possible that an "orange" revolution will take place in Armenia?

- I think today's situation in Armenia is hardly favorable for such a revolution. It usually comes with elections. There is still much time for parliamentary and presidential elections in Armenia. It is important for an "orange" revolution that there is a united opposition with one leader. It also requires involvement of external powers and weak and disunited authorities. Many elements that go hand in hand with "orange" revolution are absent in Armenia. Besides, Armenia's political elite understands that there is the Nagorno Karabakh issue which may suffer in case of political crises. Thus, the opposition does not neglect Karabakh issue while defining its stance against the authorities. But, as President Bush said in his speech at the International Republican, USA will perhaps back suchlike revolutions and regime changes in the South Caucasus and Central Asia. I want to believe that he meant Georgia and Azerbaijan but not Armenia. I think neither the US nor Russia are interested to see revolution in Armenia.

- How do you see Nagorno Karabakh conflict resolution?

- The resolution is obvious for us, Armenians. We certainly would like to set right the historic injustice, when ancient Armenian region was deliberately handed over to Azerbaijan by the Party's decision -- a decision that no one had right to take. For us it is obvious that Nagorno Karabakh is part of Armenia. By making concession, I think it would be possible to recognize Karabakh a sovereign unite, a small state, which will have good-neighborly relations with Azerbaijan and close brotherly ties with Armenia. The Minsk group co-chairs make different offers to push the settlement forward. But it's not the time and the place for detailed discussion of these offers, particularly in case when they are not thoroughly elaborated.

- Is that possible that the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan will break out?

- That threat is always hanging, as Azerbaijan is getting ready for parliamentary elections in November. If the opposition exerts too much pressure the authorities may provoke break of the truce in order to unite the nation and keep the opposition away from taking the wheel. Much will depend on America's and Russia's behavior. Will they take a tough position not to allow a war that will destabilize the region? In view of the newly built Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, such destabilization would play into hands of neither oil companies nor the Western states with their huge investments in the pipeline.

- What do you think of Turkish Prime Minister's letter to Armenian President with a proposal of a joint Armenian-Turkish group to study archive documents connected with the events in the beginning of 20th century?

- I think that the fact of Turkish Prime Minister's appeal to Armenian President should be greeted. Unfortunately, Turkey takes such steps only after feeling international community's pressure. Without Washington's pressure that would be no Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission. Without European Union's pressure, without European Parliament's precondition of Armenian Genocide recognition the Turkish side would hardly take any step to remove that painful issue which separates the two nations.

I think that Armenian President is right saying that it is not the time to discuss archive documents and that it is not an issue for the historians to study. Today the Armenian-Turkish relations are a political issue. Politicians and diplomats have to treat it but not the historians.

At any rate, Armenian side has no doubt that there was a genocide. No Armenians are left in our historic homeland, their property was appropriated, many monuments were ruined and the people spread all over the world. It's ridiculous to return to historical studies today when 2 dozens of states and international organizations recognize the Armenian Genocide.

- How do you see the improvement of Armenian-Turkish relations?

- I think that those relations should improve based on the international law and should include a few elements: Genocide recognition by Turkey, material reparation to Genocide survivors and territorial concession to Armenia.

I think that small material reparation (there are very few survivors today that could present their documents to Turkish authorities), construction of a memorial at the place of massive massacres and return of a symbolic territory comprising the Mount Ararat, Armenian's medieval capital of Ani could be a good ground for talks.

At all events, the World Armenian Congress has created a commission of specialists that should elaborate a pan-Armenian approach and demand to this issue. It will also decide the size of reparation. I think we will have final and summarized recommendations to submit to the Armenian authorities and the Armenian Diaspora.

Source: http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005060401

[Vachagan]

The first time the following essay saw light within this forum, it got shut down after a bunch of Turks decided to cause trouble. I want to revive this essay with the intent to discuss, hopefully without Turkic intrusion, the futility of discussing the Armenian Genocide with Turks. I hope we can keep things civil this time around.

Armenian

To all "Hai Dat" champions and Armenian Turk lovers

Discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

Since some of you here seem capable of varying degrees of rational thought, you should realize that all crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk. As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its aboriginal lands and, today - there are none.

Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..." Whether Turks come within Armenian forums to apologize "sincerely," or come here because they are 'told' to do so - does not matter within the larger context. For that matter, some of self-defeating rhetoric of the self-hating Armenian filth that these Turks converse with do not matter either. There have been self-hating Armenians throughout our long and bloody history - during the Ottoman years they were known as the Sultan's lapdogs.

Nevertheless, in order to emphasize and highlight the utter pointlessness, futility and counter-productiveness of a debate with Turks regarding the Armenian Genocide, I have written the following 'dialogue,' which in essence, is a typical progression of a rhetorical discussion a typical Armenian will potentially have with a typical Turk. I have "projected" this dialogue based on numerous discussions and debates I have been personally engaged in, or been exposed to previously. Therefore, with the following I am confident that I will successfully highlight the pointlessness of discussing the Armenian Genocide with Turks.

Turks are going to start by asking: What is the problem with you people regarding us Turks?

Armenians are going to say: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenians to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

Turks are going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

Armenians are going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

Turks are going to reply: There was a major war and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, lets move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago.

Armenians are going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died. It was absolutely horrible what happened to the Armenians, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

Turks are going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it was because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

Armenians are going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few revolutionaries who were justifiably seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

Turks are going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry that all that stuff happened to you people. I am really, really sorry, but we Turks are different now. Times are different now, let move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

Armenians are going to respond: Yes, lets move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem should have nothing to do with our relations with Turkey.

Turks are going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations. Clearly, Armenian are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem. Lets get back to our issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation.

At this point, some Armenian low-lives are going to reply: Very well, but please, even if its some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a posttraumatic condition brought upon by the Genocide.

And at this point, Turks will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The Armenian low-lives are going to respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

And at this point, Armenians like me are going to tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri brothers, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never live side by side. Besides which, Armenians and Turks never have lived side by side with Turks. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow -- there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

Despite the aforementioned futility in dealing with such types of Turks, we have morons within the Armenian community that entertain them: In my opinion, these Armenians are the sad off-springs of cowards and peasants. I have even heard absurd talk by these so-called Armenians about the "closeness" of Armenian and Turkic cultures and centuries of the "happy-go-lucky" existence of us Armenians within the Ottoman Empire. I mean how stupid, how idiotic! The centuries of Turkic rule reduced Asia Minor, the epicenter of western civilization and Christendom, into and bloody Turkic/Islamic cesspool. And "that" is supposed to be our centuries of "happy" coexistence with Turks?!?!?! Nevertheless, even after centuries of Turkic rule, we Armenians are still "vastly" different from the Turk - culturally, socially and ethically. Anyone that claims otherwise is either a certified idiot or a registered pornik.

As a concerned Armenian: I do not want the government of Turkey to "ever" recognize the Armenian genocide. If it does so, I am confident that the entire Armenian population of the Diaspora will disappear into the pages of history within two or three generations. Unfortunately, for most of our brethren the "Hai Dat" is the only "psychological anchor" they have that maintains their Armenian identity. Moreover, I do not want the Turkish government to "ever" end its trade embargo against the Republic of Armenia. the Republic of Armenia needs to desperately emphasize trade and cooperation with Iran and Russia - not Turkey. Besides which, we Armenians really don't need the garbage produced within Turkey for the betterment of Armenia's economy. Most sane economists within Armenia understand this. Opening Armenia's borders with Turkey can only benefit the Turkish nation and a few traveling porniks within Armenia economically and Washington and Tel Aviv, antagonists of Yerevan, strategically. Furthermore, I want the Turkish government to continue supporting Anti-Armenian terrorist nations such as Azerbaijan, Israel, Georgia and Chechnya - this is the only way to convince all Armenians that our nation's best interests are served by our nation's alliances with the Russian Federation and the Islmic Republic of Iran.

There needs to be absolutely no talk about "coexistence" and/or "reconciliation" with Turks - it is absurd: Besides the obvious fact that Turkey, unlike Armenia, is a relatively primitive nation with an Islamic Turkic heritage and a bloody past, Turkey has serious geo-political problems with virtually everyone of it's neighbors. Turkey has serious territorial disputes with Armenians, Greeks, Cypriots, Iraqis, Iranians and Syrians. Most importantly, however, is the fact that the Turkish state has a very terminal "internal" problem with its Kurdish population that, in essence, is a cancer that will eventually destroy it. Besides which, Armenians and Turks are drastically different - socially, culturally, morally and genetically. Besides which, there can be no talk of our coexistence with Turks as long as our sacred lands are occupied by barbarians. There can be no talk of coexistence as long as the blood of our countless forefathers have not been avenged.

Thus, in final analysis: Sooner or later, the crimes of the Turkish nation against the Armenian people will get punished. Just in case there are any Turks who are hopeful that they will succeed in fooling certain self-hating Armenian 'xxxxxs' into thinking that the modern Turk is progressive and western oriented, they should also realize that it is Armenians who more-or-less portray the attitude that 'I' have conveyed here are the ones who essentially end up making political policy and implementing them - not the Sultan's lapdogs.

Tough, but true...

Dr. Vachagan Robert Yengibaryan
Miami, Florida