Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[cemil]

someone must tell them that ,they tried but they couldnt get east antolia.but that ones will not be us.

we prevented them from taking the lands,where they were not majority.

they still want.

there is 2 definition for this case : 1-there was no genocide 2-its still continuing.

Turkey must not bother this idotic situation. until the operative treaties that turkey based on, will be seen by their state.

[eMachine]

emachine if you are an Armenian supporter, you should not say things like " if *urkey doesnt get in the EU they will kill armenians." It isnt our fault that the *urks are inhumane animals that like to kill people... they did it to us... they are responsible for their own actions...

PLUS they wouldnt dare to set foot into armenia anyway, russia will crush them like a bug
AND it is NOT in the best interest of *urky to do this.

you think armenians are so powerless? just beause we are small in number and we happend to be on the side of honesty, truth, and justice for human rights, doesnt make us powerless. *urky will NEVER touch one armenian soul. they fear us - they fear the ancient armenian lands - they dont let people fly over them... lol!

i love it - when i found out that they dont live in MOST of those lands (NO ONE LIVES THERE) lol! i thought why? and i found out that they think it is cursed...
WELL HERE IS SOME NEWS FOR YOU! - YES IT IS BABY! YES IT IS! GOD INTENDED IT FOR ARMENIANS! - we are true owners of that land. and those lands will bring you bad luck... MAYBE even the GHOST of ANDRANIK PASHA! will come out and you will flee from fear of his ghost. YES IT IS CURSED! you will never swollow this and be content... you will always live in fear of the thoughts of genocide crawling up your back and into your head and festering - the ARMENIAN LANDS will never bring prosperity to you. it is not rightfully yours and you will never feel at home...

im supporter of Armenians, not fascists... if you act as a fascist you are the same person as a fascist Turk. If you act as a fascist, you are same with barbarian fascist dirthy muslims...

i prefer to dont support you...

i still wanna explane something, i hate fascist muslims but anyway, Russia has no enough power to beat Turkey, i just wanted to tell you,
in world wars, 8 different countries and rebells were against 1 Turkey in ww1, where the hell these 8 different countries right now?
plus im afraid Turkeys military power but i still want you to check it out:

http://www.kkk.tsk.mil.tr/

and i recommend you to research b4 to post, because turk military is the 2nd biggest army in nato after usa + uk... and Russia just became a member of Nato, Russia is so new...

do not talk me about nuclear weapons, if russia uses nuclear weapons, it would be end of Russia...

[Sip]

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocidefaq.html

'nuf said.

[Red Brigade]

You say you kill kurds, i say we had kurdish origined head of parlements 

Those ''Kurds'' in the parliament dont even care about the rights of the Kurds in Turkey and about kurdistan.

I say we will not join because they don’t treat Turkey in equilty of states. 

No country in the history of the EU was so much promoted by America to enter in the EU except Turkey.

Greece claims shelf for thier islands in Aegean. 

Greece doesn't claim nothing from Turkey.Turkey violates Greek airspace every day.Today a Greek aircraft was landed with only one generator and it could blow up in the air because the Turkish aircrafts attacked again.But that isnt only the subject.Turkey wants Imia(Kardak) from Greece because they beleive its their's.Imia was given to Greece from Italy at the 40's and it doesnt belong to Turkey.The only reason Turkey want's Imia(Kardak), is because they want the Greek petrol in Aegean.One month ago a Turkish ship violated the Greek waters as well.Turkey is an imperialistical nation and it seeks more land obviously.Turkey knows that it violates the Greek waters , they tell to Greece not to go to the International court, but to find a ''solution'' together.

But EU wants Turkey to accept these claims before being member. 

You are going to admit all of your crimes and violations one way or another.

By the way ASALA didnt stop because diaspora Armenia wanted it to stop Mr winoman , since the vast majority of the Diaspora was openly supporting them.It was the Dashnak clowns and their sheeps that waged a war against ASALA in fear that they will lose their influence in the Armenian community.Already all the youth was entering in the ranks of A.S.A.L.A.Too bad for the Dashnaks that they have already lost their influence,they are more like a decor .ASALA by itself stoped because their first the goal was achieved...... By the way the only reason Dashnaks exist is because they control the Armenian Churches and their money.

[winoman]

To all the Turks - listen and learn (Armenians too)

Taner Akcam has written very eloquently and with unique insight concerning the Turkish mindset - and specifically of the nationa building myths (and taboos) that arose from the transistion from Empire to the Turkish State and how such was (largely) built upon the Genocide of Armenains (and other Christians) in Anatolia and how a false (and mythical) history was created in the minds of the Turks that includes blocking the events and fact of the Genocide. Most all of you Turks here exhibit and voice exactly according to Akcams model. It is really quite something to see (and I should add that we most often see on the part of Turks who comment on and think they understand this issue). Face it - you are a product of your society and there will only be few with the ability to see out. I offer you some quotes form Ackam to Ponder. (These are from his book: From Empire to Republic - Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide" (2004):

"...the Armenian Genocide occup(ies)...a perverse place in our mind...to approach it seriously mean(s) risking all of the concepts or models we (use) to explain our world and ourselves. Our entrenched belief sysytems constitute an obstcle to understanding the subject."

"Speaking openly about the Armenian Genocide in Turkish society...means incorporating the Armenian Genocide into Turkish historical writing...has a direct impact in pushing Turkey towards becomming a fully democratic state. Unfortunatly there is not yet enough awareness in Turkey of the positive and propelling effect that incorporating the narratives not only of Armenians but also of other ethnic-religious groups would have on democratization. Only nationa-states that are at peace with their past and all their citizens can build futures based on democratic principles. Morever, by eliminating the history of these various groups from its national narrative, Turkey has deprived itself of a rich and vibrant part of its own history."

Akcam speaks of two historical narratives - the one that (you) Turks hold - that blames Western powers (and the minorities) for attempting to particion the empire - with the rise of Kemalism and the "National Pact" victorious over such and the "persecutions, massacres and, especially in the case of Armenians, the annihilation of different ethnic and religious groups." "...without dealing with both aspects of this issue, we can never understand the history of the Ottoman Empire and especially today's problems in Turkey."

"The Turkish state remains under the influence and control of a civil-military bureaucratic elite, which has been institutionalized since the state's founding."

Akcam explains how this elite is a direct carryover from not only the CUP but from the previous Ottoman military elite. He shows that this same elite were the ones who planned and carried out the Armenain Genocide and were used by Ataturk to found the Republic. He describes the Turkish National Security Council (NSC) - Milli Guvenlik Kurulu - MGK) - the exisistance of the secret "National Policy Document" that supercedes your constitution and how the NSC controls all state ministries and media and has a vested interest to not admit to the Armenian Genocide - and to maintian the myths and taboos regarding the founding and maintenence of your state. He describes the transition from Pan-Turanism (that could not be realized) to Ataturk's vision of the Turkish state as a "pragmatic choice" that was a "radical break with the past" where the "Turkish cultural identity...became the cement with which to build...homogenization." however the "Turkish state was formed in opposition to its own social reality. The ethnic, confessional and cultural differences of Turkish society find there places in the foundational philosophy of the Republic as problematic or threatening elements."

The five taboos described by Akcam are as follows:

"1) Turkish society has no classes. We are a classless, unified society
2) There are no ethnic-cultural differences. All citizens are Turks" (my note - you Turks are likely mostly too young however to remember the various changes to this policy where "Turks" of non-Turkish heritage in your country were variously stripped of citizenship and given in back and experienced much direct discrimination in the process - something that is re-emerging in Turkey right now - at this very point in time - minorities are now being thought of as such and descriminated against)
"3) Turkey is a secular state
4) No massacre whatsoever was carried out and directed at the Armenians
5) The armed forces are the guardians of these taboos, and the role of the armed forces within the state is a taboo subject" (just lovely eh?)

Ackam details some of the articles of the Turkish constitution that enforce these taboos - mentioning that "There is no single article mentioning the Armenian Genocide, but this is because there is no existing social group or circle that would challenge this taboo."

"...the Turkish state was established on the foundation of a national psychosis forged in the struggle and preservation of its existence against internal and external enemies. This psychosis continues to the present."

"The nature of the state's ideology is about protecting the integrity of the country and nation against enemies."

Anyway in the book he details how and why the Armenians were eliminated and why the Turkish state - and consequently the Turks cannot at all see that their beliefs are based on a one sided and largely untrue (certainly in regards to the Armenians - myth) - as well as other fundemnetal issues regarding the nature of the Turkish state and society and some very troubling issues concerning the relationship between Turkey today and Germany before WWII and how the Turkish elites and the Turks (as we can see here) are reviving the concept of Empire and Pan-Turanism - as well as the potential role of EU membership in challenging the power of the elites and the crisis (and backlash) that this is producing.

Further Akcam presents the Genocide from the Turkish view - and presents purely Turkish based evidence for the truth of the Genocide. So yes - highly recommended reading.

BTW - do any of you Turks understand the points he is making (or will you just attack him as a traitor to the state - and thus prove his points even further - )

[winoman]

By the way ASALA didnt stop because diaspora Armenia wanted it to stop Mr winoman , since the vast majority of the Diaspora was openly supporting them.

untrue - ASALA was not suported and they were pressured to stop there actions by the Diaspora. Give me a break - most all Armenains were embarrased by such terrorism. That you obviously are not bespeaks where you are comming from and not Armenians.

And yes Nune - you are correct in your assertion that the CUP began a campaign - intitially aimed at the Dashnaks - who had been their allies - to round up weapons. This was latter expanded to some of the Armenian towns that had shown the Sultan resistance in the past (Zeityun for instance) and became an excuse to terrorise and extort well off Armenians. If Armenians could not produce the quota of guns they were punished (thus there are instance of Armenians buying guns at extordinary prices only to turn them in) - and when they did produce guns - they were punished - as the Turks then accused them of illegaly possessing guns! and of plotting against the state - etc

[AmericanTurk]

American Turk - I'm not so sure exactly what it is you agree with my posting other then to acknowledge that most Turks (and I was more meaning inside Turkey) aren't that much aware of the Armenian Genocide - becuase it certainly seems to me that you and I see this issue vastly differently.

I lived in Turkey untill 10 years ago, so even though I'm in the US now I pretty much remember the impact of the Armenian problem over the nation in Turkey. Almost every Armenian has a story of how their ancestors were killed, humiliated, raped etc. while in Turkey the families usually forget things like that. I didn't know that my ancestors migrated west just because the Armenian threat untill I was a teenager. I don't remember my grandaddy telling me how his daddy's uncle and his family were burnt alive in their house by Armenians untill I was in high school, and he told me because I asked him, not because he was anxious to tell me. The Turkish government didn't knock the doors of anyone asking for their memories about those days, though I know a few other families that migrated west for the same reason as my ancestors. The mass graves of Turks massacred by Armenians were not on the front pages untill ASALA came on the scene. That's why I said the Turkish government didn't take it seriously untill may be 20 years ago.

About Turks participating to this forum, I believe the majority of us in this forum are pretty nice and friendly even though we disagree in our thoughts. The people on any forum doesn't get banned because they are Turks or Armenians, they get banned because of their behaviour.

[TomServo]

AmericanTurk, your grandaddy was wack.

[Red Brigade]

ASALA was not suported and they were pressured to stop there actions by the Diaspora. 

There was no diaspora ''pressing'' them to stop, it seems you are not very well informed .ASALA was an organization of Diaspora.And dont speak from the behalf of the Armenians , you dont represent anyone but yourself and only yourself.

most all Armenains were embarrased by such terrorism. 

I feel really pity for those ''Armenians'' who were embarassed while their brothers gave their lives with altrouism ,without thinking themselves,their dreams , their future and their lives.They could all become rich pocket spoiled bourgeoisie,like those ''praisworthy'' embarassed Armenians.

That you obviously are not bespeaks where you are comming from and not Armenians. 

Who is ''you'' in that sentence and who you just called not Armenian?

[winoman]

I'm curious AmericanTurk - when and where did this happen?

I don't dispute your story - but again you are in the minority. I don't buy that Turks have just forgotten these things - even though (many - but not all) Turks have forgotten what they did during the Genocide of Armenians. There is however a vast difference in both numbers and perpetrators. While Turkish deaths at the hands of Armenians were commited by small bands in certain villages - some prior to the (Great) war and most after - the Armenains were wholescale massacred and destroyed as a result of deliberate government policy and through state power. Even during the times prior to WWI when Armenian bands were killing Turks there was a much greater instance of predetory behavior and killing of Armenians by Turks and especially Kurds. Your falure to realise or acknowledge this - and thus falsely claim that this thing was started by the Armenians - and your failure to correctly concieve of the Genocide for what it was - something quite a degree greater and much more horrible and criminal as a whole is the root of your problem with this. No one can say that their particualr family tragedy was necessarily any worse then someone elses - and I'm sure that for instance American (European) settlers could tell true accounts of how they were atacked and murdered by Indians - however you cannot compare these isolated instances to the European extermination of the Indian native culture in the Americas to the much more limited - and in the larger pictur of things - defensive - acts commited by Indians against the whites. This is the fundemental difference - and the similar result - Indian civilization destroyed by the Europeans is the correct anology to Armenian civilization destroyed by the Turks. Armenians - did defend themselves - though it occured infrequently - and this fact is documented - largely didn't have the means to truly "revolt" or to conduct anything even remotely approaching "civil war" per se - they were by and large victims. Of course after 1917 there was an Armenian state and there were forces that conducted retribution attacks - and the Turkish victims are estimated (by Berktay and Akam for instance) to be in the 10-20,000 range - certainly alot (though not what conservatively 800,000 - 1.5 million - from a much smaller population...) - and some of the behaviors of these Armenian forces were shameful - but these killings were not the result a government directed Genocidal policy against its own citizens and these were not a culmination of a history of massacre and persecution. It is an innacurate assertion to claim that the Genocide was truly enacted for military means or to stem revolt or rebellion - as even the German allies to the Turks - and even Turks after the war - clearly discounted these reasons as valid and instead put the blame squarly on the Young Turk/CUP perpetrators who were driven by racist Pan-Turaninc doctrine (that saw Armenains as potential ethnic as well as economic competetors) and that the "provocation" theisis and the claim of deporation was clearly a mask for the attempted annihilation of the Armenians (no different then what the NAZIs carried out against the Jews and other "undesireables" in WWII).