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Originally posted by sadi
Oh but of course - you parrot your justice minister - thoise who take other then the Government line are "enemies of Turkey" - some democracy you have - some democratic values you espouse...
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hahhahahaha - Nogales was an officer in the Ottoman forces who led the attack on Van. You cannot claim he is an enemy of Turkey - he volunteered to fight on Turkey's behalf and he did so with distinction...he was just disgusted by what he saw - the corruption and the barbarity of the genocide. His account is an autobiography of his 4 years o f service from 1915-1919 - he was there - he saw - he was a confident of those who purpotrated the crimes! Read the book before you condemn it!
Oh but of course - you parrot your justice minister - thoise who take other then the Government line are "enemies of Turkey" - some democracy you have - some democratic values you espouse... -
Selim Deringil, professor of history at Bogazici University in Istanbul, in an article published in 1998, wrote:
"No historian with a conscience can possibly accept 'the civil war' line, which is a travesty of history. ...it is also nonsense to put forward the civil war argument as justification for the deportation and murder of innocent people from places as far removed from the war zone as Bursa."
Hm - professor of history....Turkish no less...is he a traitor too?Comment
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traitors all!!!!
General Vehib Pasha, Commander of the Turkish Third Army, wrote in a deposition that was read during the March 29, 1919 session of the Turkish Government Court Martials:
"The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the results of decisions reached by Ittihad (the ruling party) Central Committee...The atrocities were carried out under a program that was determined upon and involved a definite case of premeditation."
Senator Resit Akif Pasha, President of the post-war State Council, declared in November 1918, during the debate on the Armenian massacres:
"While humbly occupying my post of President of the State Council, to my surprise, I came across a strange [combination] of official orders. One of them, the order for deportation, was issued by the notorious Interior Minister. The other, however, was an ominous secret circular issued by Ittihad's Cenral Committee. It directed the provincial party units to proceed with the execution of the accursed plan, Whereupon the brigands went into action and atrocious massacres were the result."
Mustafa Arif, Interior Minister of Turkey (1918-1919), in a Turkish newspaper interview in December 1918, stated:
"Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that would surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminated them. This decision was taken by the Central Committee of the Young Turks and was implemented by the government."
Colonel Stange, Commander of the 8th Regiment of the Turkish Army sent (August 23, 1915) a secret report to the German military mission to Turkey, headquartered in the Ottoman capital, bringing to the attention of his German superiors the following facts:
"The Turks did have a plan [to destroy the Armenians] that was conceived a long time ago. The deportation and destruction of the Armenians was decided upon by the Young Turk [Ittihad] Committee in Constantinople."Comment
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Why you are omitting the points of "the polish,algerian,chinese,africans,or caucasian peoples.... You suppose that the only people massacred are Armenians in the history!Comment
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no scholars and historians never say it was a Genocide do they?
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS
President: Robert Melson (USA) Vice-President: Israel Charny (Israel) Secretary-Treasurer: Steven Jacobs (USA)
Respond to: Robert Melson, Professor of Political Science Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907 USA
April 6, 2005
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan TC Easbakanlik Bakanlikir Ankara, Turkey FAX: 90 312 417 0476
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.
Sincerely,
[signed] Robert Melson Professor of Political Science President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
[signed] Israel Charny Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
[signed] Peter Balakian Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities Colgate UniversityComment
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no you are changing the subject - we are talking about the unacknowledged Genocide of Armenians by the Turks. Other instances of Genocide or massacre are not at issue...BTW what do your history books tell you about the Armenian Genocide? Mine tell me all about these other massacres and such and more...so its yoour history books and our mutual history that are at issue baby - you are avoiding the question. It is Genocide - admit it.Originally posted by sadiComment
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Tell us how you accept the misery and pain of Armenians - tell me. And explain to me what you accept - what you understand....Originally posted by sadiComment
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Again Atlan:
When we hear about a baby pulled from a mother's hands to be dashed on the rocks, or a youth shot to death beside a hill, or an old woman throttled by her slender neck, even the hard-hearted among us will be ashamed to say, "Yes, but these people killed the Turks."
Most of these people did not kill anyone.
These people became the innocent victims of a crazed government powered by murder, pitiless but also totally incompetent in governing.
This bloody insanity was a barbarism, not something for us to take pride in or be part of.
This was a slaughter that we should be ashamed of, and, if possible, something that we can sympathize with and share the pain.
I understand that the word "genocide" has a damningly critical meaning, based on the relentless insistence of the Armenians' "Accept the Genocide" argument, or the Turks' "No, it was not a genocide" counterargument, even though the Turks accept the death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians.
And yet, this word is not that important for me, even though it has significance in politics and diplomacy.
What is more important for me is the fact that many innocent people were killed so barbarically.
When I see the shadow of this bloody event on the present world, I see a greater injustice done to the Armenians.
Our crime today is not to allow the present Armenians even to grieve for their cruelly killed relatives and parents.Comment
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So you contend that death marches (where in some case only 10% made it), brutal and depraved rapes, being cut up with axes, swords & such, various forms of torture, cruelty, emptying of whole towns, villages, regions etc - and the killing of over one million innocent civilians - who were uprooted from their homes and had all valuables and property - everything - stolen - lives ruined (if they survived) - and the fact that there are no Armenians left in what was historical Armenia and that the "nation" - the community that comprised the Armenian millyet in Anatolia is no longer in existance - you contend that this is somehow not a genocide? That it was just some massacres and was nothing special? etcComment
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