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  • #11
    Originally posted by winoman
    The CUP was never confident of anything - they were highly paranoid, fearful and had extemely low self esteem - even while they were eating up and promoting this idea of Pan-Turkism and all the Golkap and Alp BS. The CUP was very concerned that the curtain could fall down on them at any time. They were very aware that they likely would not win the war - and in fact - during this period they were readying to burn Constantinple and flee into Anatolia as the Brits etc were on the verge of overwhelmming the Dardenelles and Galipoli...additionaly Ottomans were suffering defeats in Mesopatania and elsewhere in the Middle East and the Russians were also on the move (and had captured a great deal of Van province and such) -so please your claims of the CUP thinking they were about to win the war at this time are quite laughable. The CUP took great pains to cover their tracks and (dishonestly) justify what they were doing however it has been clearly established (and you cannot refute) that secret orders were issued to exterminate the Armenians and that these were carried out by party operatives and the special organization which took orders directly from the CUP central commitee. Any who opposed these policies were removed. There is a great deal of documentary evidence and even testimony and writings by those involved after the war (who were more honest then Talat) that prove all these things and you cannot claim otherwise.
    1. My point is easier than your explanation of justification against this cable. You are paranoid.
    2. Besides this "secret orders, etc." you don't have any single document that proove your paranoid thesis. All those "Naim Bey's memoirs, cable of Aleppo governor are PROVEN as fake. You are just lying by fabricating fake documents to proove your genocide myth.
    3. You even can not write the name of CUP members correctly and repeat same paranoid story like parrot.


    • #12
      Originally posted by winoman
      see above (my post #4 as well as post #8) you extremely ignorant person
      You can't answer this very easy and specific question isn't it? This shows how weak you are. No need to talk anymore unless you feel yourself ready to answer my easy question instead of changing the subject and tell paranoid stories and secret cables, secret orders, secret organisations, secret...


      • #13
        Originally posted by glennmiller
        1. My point is easier than your explanation of justification against this cable. You are paranoid.
        2. Besides this "secret orders, etc." you don't have any single document that proove your paranoid thesis. All those "Naim Bey's memoirs, cable of Aleppo governor are PROVEN as fake. You are just lying by fabricating fake documents to proove your genocide myth.
        3. You even can not write the name of CUP members correctly and repeat same paranoid story like parrot.
        Wrong - I can't be held accountable for the fact that you are ignorant of this material. None of what I said is connected to the cables that you refer to BTW - but I want to make a point that these cale have NOT been prven as fake - they have been alleged as fake by Turkish so-called scholars who I should add have a very poor track record in regards to objectivity and accuracy and for the most part their "scholarship" is rather laughable. Additionally their so-called "findings" have been throughly refuted. No matter - as I said - nothing I have stated is in any way connected with these documents but relies on evidence gathered by the Ottoman parliment, the Post war military tribunals and from memoirs admitting such by former CUP and Ottoman government officials.


        • #14
          Originally posted by glennmiller
          You can't answer this very easy and specific question isn't it? This shows how weak you are. No need to talk anymore unless you feel yourself ready to answer my easy question instead of changing the subject and tell paranoid stories and secret cables, secret orders, secret organisations, secret...
          my posts directly answer your stupid question...


          • #15
            Exerpts from the testimony of Dr. Johannes Lepsius - Tehlirian trial - Berlin 1921


            The plan for the deportation of the Armenians was decided upon by the Young Turk Committee. On this Committee were Talaat Pasha as the Minister of the Interior and Enver Pasha as the Minister of War. Talaat gave the orders and, with the help of the Young Turk Committee, implemented the plan.

            In a document signed by Talaat Pasha we find the following statement: "The destination of the deportation is annihilation." These orders were carried out to the letter.

            Pursuant to this order, of all the Armenians who were deported from Eastern Anatolia southward, only ten percent reached their destination; the remaining ninety percent were killed, except for women and girls who were sold by the gendarmes or were abducted by the Kurds or died of exhaustion and hunger.
            Of those Armenians who were driven to the edge of the desert from Western Anatolia, Cilicia, and northern Assyria, a sizable number, reaching into the hundreds of thousands, was assembled into camps. These groups were systematically starved and periodically massacred.

            When more groups of Armenians were brought to the stations and there was no room to keep them, they were taken in groups into the desert and slaughtered.

            The official government explanation for the deportation was that these were precautionary measures. However, authoritative individuals blatantly declared that their purpose was to annihilate the whole Armenian population.What I have just said is supported by the official documents of the German Foreign Office, as well as the documents of the German Embassy in Constantinople and documents of German Consuls. There is no question as to their authenticity.

            One would have to ask the following question: How is it possible to kill millions of people in such a short time?

            This was possible in the most savage of conditions, as was brought out during the proceedings of the Military Tribunal set up in Constantinople to try Talaat and his comrades and associates. The Court consisted of a Division Commander, as its president, three generals, prominent during the war, and a captain. Of the five charges brought against the Young Turks, the first dealt with the Armenian massacres. On July 6, 1919, the Military Tribunal pronounced a guilty verdict, sentencing to death the leading perpetrators of the genocide — Talaat, Enver, Jemal and Dr. Nazim.

            The responsibility of carrying out the orders for the massacres was left to the Valis [governors-general of the provinces], Mutasarrifs (governor of the provinces], and Kaymakams [governors of the districts]. Those officials who refused to carry out the orders were immediately relieved of their duties. For example, Jelal Pasha, who was the Governor of vilayet of Aleppo, refused to carry out the orders for deportation. He was relieved by direct orders of Talaat and sent westward to Konya. He behaved in the same manner there. He refused to obey the orders and in fact helped the Armenians, protecting those who remained and the deportees as well. He was again relieved of his duties, but this time he was not given another government position. He was one of the most widely known and fair Valis Turkey had. Another governor, Rashid Bey of the vilayet of Diyarbekir, executed two subprefects who refused to carry out the orders. These orders not only affected government officials, but Turkish citizens as well. The Commander of the Third Division issued an order that any Turk found assisting an Armenian would be shot in front of his house, and the house burned to the ground. Any government officials found helping Armenians would be relieved of their posts and tried before a military tribunal for their crimes.

            In Constantinople, our diplomats prevented the deportation of Armenian people of that city.

            ...there is sufficient proof to indicate that neither the 1895-1896 massacres nor the recent ones stemmed from spontaneous popular agitations. In both instances, it was the orders of the Turkish government that were being carried out.

            Furthermore, whether in 1895-1896 or in 1915, it was this very same class of Armenian merchants living in Constantinople, Smyrna, and Aleppo that escaped the massacres, partly because they were able to pay ransom. On the other hand, the entire rural Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia, which comprised 80 percent of the total Armenian population as well as the tradesmen, who were mostly Armenians, were sent to the desert and annihilated.

            I was in Constantinople in 1913 and I could see that the Young Turks were enraged that the European Powers again kept talking about reforms for the Armenians. They were all the more disturbed when, thanks to the agreement between Germany and Russia, this issue was settled to the satisfaction of the Armenians. The Young Turks said: If you Armenians do not denounce these reforms, something will happen that will make Abdul Hamid's actions look like child's play. The leaders of both groups had become friends and helped each other out during the elections. During the first few months of the war, relations between them seemed amicable until the evening of April 24, 1915 when, to the complete surprise of everyone in Constantinople, 235 Armenian intellectuals were arrested, jailed, and then sent to Asia Minor. During the next few days, a couple hundred more were added. Altogether 600 people were involved. Of this group only 15 survived. Practically all of the Armenian intellectual leaders in Constantinople were wiped out in this manner. A member of Parliament, Vartkes, a close personal friend of Talaat, had still remained exempt. He went to Talaat and asked him what was happening. Talaat's answer was: "While we were weak, your people pushed for reforms and were a thorn in our side; now we are going to take advantage of our favorable situation and disperse your people so that it will take you 50 years before you talk again about reforms." Vartkes answered, appropriately enough, "Then it follows that the work of Abdul Hamid is to be continued?" Talaat answered, "Yes."

            Their deeds surpassed their boasts. The evidence brought out during the trials held by the Turkish Court-martial in Constantinople, and corresponding to the report published in the official Turkish journal Takvim-i-vekayi, shows that the deportation was decided upon by the Young Turk Committee and that Talaat was the most influential member of the Committee. In fact, he was its very soul. He ordered the annihilation and did nothing to prevent it.
            It is also possible to submit official written proof based on German and Turkish documents.

            This uprooting and annihilation of the Armenians took a thousand and one forms. You have already heard a few examples from eyewitnesses.


            • #16
              Ackam convincingly presents the evolution of the Turkish mindset leading to Genocide

              Taner Ackam – From Empire to Republic (exerpts)

              Turkish National Identity and Christian Enmity

              “…one after another the Balkan Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire fought for their political independence and ultimately succeeded in splitting off from the Empire. But these independence movements were perceived by the ruling nation as treacherous acts directed against it.”

              (my note: Albania likewise succeeded in 1910 in response to the CUPs directive to Turkify all conduct in the Empire. Albanians – though Muslims feared that this meant the loss of their cultural uniqueness and heritage and to them this was intolerable. The CUP response to this was to abandon the pretense altogether of any idea of Ottomanism and to pursue a course as quickly as possible to Turkify the nation and remove all ethnic elements it perceived were non-Turkish. The secret meetings of the CUP central committee from 1910 and then in 1911 reflect that at this time the debate was between strictly deporting the undesirables [Armenians, Greeks and Jews were discussed] or just massacring them outright. The faction favoring the later dominated the party and government in the following years (and ultimately forced the more moderate CUP members to leave the party and form their own opposition party – Peace and Justice Party was the name I believe). Also at this time plans were drawn up to nationalize the economy – and by this they meant to force the Greeks, Armenians and Jews to abandon their businesses and properties through boycotts, deportations and pogroms against them. It is interesting that German pressure actually encouraged this as Germans were interested in replacing the indigenous mercantiles with Germans and to this end Germans also encouraged race hatred of the Ottoman minorities – prefacing the later Kristalnach and other anti-Jewish boycotts and restrictions on Jews of the 1930s. – BTW – the minutes of thee secret CUP meetings were independently found from separate sources in German and French intelligence archives!)

              Back to Ackam –

              “Although these feelings of hatred had been there before the Tanzimat period (1839-76), they reached a peak with the Reform Decree, which declared the principle of general equality of all Ottoman Subjects”

              “The Muslims saw it as an insult…”

              “Muslims, who up to that point had denigrated but tolerated Christians, now began to lose their position of dominance in Ottoman society.”

              “…it now becomes easy to understand why the seeds of hatred toward the Christians grew. The attainment by hitherto second-class citizens of privileges through the protection of the foreign powers and the consequent improvement of their economic lot, as well as their exemption experiencing all of the burden and bitterness of the wars that were endured solely by the Muslim population…greatly helped to fan the flame of hatred against them. Toward the end of the nineteenth century, this hatred and enmity found open expression in many of the Ottoman dailies.” (Ackam then gives some specific examples…oh and BTW – the Christians were not entirely exempt as the Ottoman government continued to raise their taxes to intolerable levels to pay off the massive debt – so bad that by the mid 19th century the Ottoman finances were in foreign hands as they had defaulted their various international loans…)

              “…the Young Turks movement (CUP) used this resentment to promote anti-Christian hostility…they made acceptance of Turkish superiority and domination the condition for other peoples within the Empire to live together. …a predictable result of this jealousy tinged hostility directed at the Christian minority was an intolerance of their demands for democracy.”

              “In Bulgaria, Midhat Pasha became known as the ‘Bulgar executioner’ for his actions during the Bulgarian uprising of 1876.” (Ackam gives several examples of how minority calls for greater rights were met by Turkish hostility and ultimately massacre and how this policy of the Sultan’s was carried on by the Young Turks. He further documents how the Young Turks deliberately or otherwise mischaracterized the aims of ethnic political parties to emphasize not their intention of promoting reform but that they wished to “…divide and destroy the homeland”)…Ackam further characterizes these attitudes as “Islamic prejudice….Traces of such attitudes can be found even today.” And he details how “Effort is thereby made to denigrate the members of a religious or ethnic group, by equating them with an economic class. By equating ‘Christian’ and ‘bourgeois’, whereby Christians are identified as collaborators of imperialism, these authors attempt to imbue anti-Christain ideas with class content.”

              Ackam then supplies a number of quotes from prominent Turkish theorists, for instance –

              Ziya Pasha: “…a day will come when the matter will be unbearable and unendurable, and it will reach levels at which Islamic honor and zeal can no longer stand it. Muslims will reach their limit and they will take matters into their own hands”

              Ali Suavi – “Muslims…could never accept being ruled by [Christians].” Etc

              Ackam then explains – “Throughout the entire nineteenth century one sees Muslim attacks and revolts directed against Christians, attributable to the anger caused by loss of power…Lebanon 1844, Mecca 1855, Jedda and Syria in 1858 are but a few of the revolts of this nature. One of the reasons for the Serbian uprising was also that the Muslims could not accept the loss of their position of dominance.”

              “The advent of another loss of Muslim dominance…vis-à-vis the Armenian population – played a significant role in the series of massacres of the Armenians. Anti-Armenian sentiment is asserted…[as] the natural and understandable result of this Muslim irritation.”

              “Thus every demand for democracy…became perceived as yest another step toward the partitioning of the Empire.”

              “In relation to the Armenian Genocide, the raw materials for the belligerent tendencies found in the intellectual and emotional construct that is the Turkish national identity are in large measure to be found in this feeling of belittlement and humiliation” (of perceived loss of status vis-à-vis the Christians and Armenians in particular).

              “Turkish national identity developed in tandem with a desire for revenge.”

              “Belligerent, chauvinistic and militaristic ideas had embraced the entire society.”

              “…this feeling of vengeance…was largely directed at the non-Muslim minorities…And during the First World War this revenge, which could not have been taken against the Bulgarians or the Greeks, was instead taken out against the ‘ungrateful’ Armenians, who by collaborating with the imperialists, struck us from behind.”

              Ackam quotes Bekir Sami (in response to Kazim Karabekir after machine gunning hundreds of innocent Armenians he assembled before him) – “I am settling the account of four hundred years of Ottoman History.”

              “We cannot truthfully claim that Turkey has fully emerged from this mindset.” (followed by numerous quotes regarding the ingratitude of the minorities etc)


              • #17
                "you're a liar" "you're a lying nation"
                How well did you think that would go over? How do you come to someone's "house" and insult them and expect not to be kicked out?
                [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
                -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]


                • #18
                  Winoman the things you write here just conversations.And you can think that on the other hand some of Armenians write here that they will one day took Anatolia form us and kill our children and rape our women.İs it better when I make it book?
                  Peace in world,peace in the country-Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Türküm
                    Winoman the things you write here just conversations.And you can think that on the other hand some of Armenians write here that they will one day took Anatolia form us and kill our children and rape our women.İs it better when I make it book?
                    There is quite a bit of difference when some immature and lacking in perspective/understanding children lash out because of theri pain and perhaps dream of justice and retribution without thinking of the moral consequences and such - it is entitrely another thing when an entire nation - driven by far worse bloodlust and sinking into barbarity - actually acts to massacre aand kill women and children on a monumental scale and commit such widespread acts of depravity to make the entire world shudder in horror. I'll give you a hint - that nation is named as a bird commonly eaten here in the states in late November.

                    BTW the corrrect quote should be: "Peace at home and Peace in the world" - somehow however - when considering the scincerety of such a comment - or lack thereof - I am reminded of the naming of the MX missile as the "Peacekeeper" the same vein I think...


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Türküm
                      Winoman the things you write here just conversations.And you can think that on the other hand some of Armenians write here that they will one day took Anatolia form us and kill our children and rape our women.İs it better when I make it book?
                      The point is the Turks killed our children and raped our when. It happened many times but the most during 1915.