The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians

[Siamanto]

I can't really call myself a Christian because I don't really believe in God, or at least not very interested in God, but I can't say that the Christian traditions and cultural outlooks had absolutely no effect on my upbringing.

I relate to the above; I call myself an "ethnic Christian." It works for me and people see what I mean!

[karoaper]

I'm more than an ethnic Christian. I believe Christianity was a gift to us, one we had to pay dearly to keep but one which has acted as the glue for our people's identity. However, I'm not blind not to see the absolute barbaric and inhumane ways Christians have acted around the world at different times. Remember Sabra and Chatilla. It was the work of Phalangists, absolute animals who would make Al Zarqawi proud, mascarading as church going nationalists. I don't consider them Christian either.

As much as I believe in the transformative power of faith, I have a feeling Chechens, Bosnians or even Turks would be doing the same things, whether they were Christian, xxx or Hindu. They did because they knew nothing but war, hatred, ignorance. Imagine wild dogs and you'll get the idea. Give wild dogs soft pillows to sleep on, they will still tear you to pieces, cause that's all they know.

Now, I do agree that not all religions are created equal. Only Christianity (among the three main ones) teaches forgiveness of thine enemy. I'm proud that at the center of my faith is "turn the other cheek" principle. Imagine, that it still didn't keep many Christians from doing inhuman things at different points in history. How do you think a religion that teaches "tooth for tooth" will fare in this regard.

However, I still maintain that religion in this case was simply a motivational tool that worked only because the nature of people was barbaric, ignorant and volatile.

[karoaper]

Also, as far as I understand, a huge number of Mongols (yes Genghis Khan's Mongols) were Christian. Didn't keep them from driving stakes through people did it?

It's a basic process of desensitization, whereby things that may seem savage to "normal" folks are "normal" to savage folk. Now, closing one's eyes to one's government's immoral and inhuman policies is something the most civilized of societies can do. But to chop heads and rape children and so forth is something that only people seeped in that sort of life can do and/or people totally twisted by hatred. The strange thing is that most of the time it's hatred of themselves and their weaknesses and futility.

[Dave]

It is said that the Hamidian massacres of 1895-96 had more of a religious character, and the 1915 genocide was done because of pan-turanist nationalism. The Armenians (along with the Assyrian and Greek Chrsitians) were the only ones in the Turks' way to unite with their long-lost Azerbaijani and Central Asian brothers. Abdul Hamid didn't have pan-turanism in his mind.

Jihad could be declared when a non-Muslim country takes over Islamic land, but the Crusades don't have such limits. Saladdin himself - who is now widely depicted as a noble and tolerant Muslim - persecuted Armenians in Egypt, just because he thought Armenians were loyal to the Fatimids (the previous rulers of Egypt).

I'm more than an ethnic Christian. I believe Christianity was a gift to us, one we had to pay dearly to keep but one which has acted as the glue for our people's identity. However, I'm not blind not to see the absolute barbaric and inhumane ways Christians have acted around the world at different times. Remember Sabra and Chatilla. It was the work of Phalangists, absolute animals who would make Al Zarqawi proud, mascarading as church going nationalists. I don't consider them Christian either.

It is said that Ariel Sharon ordered the massacre in Sabra and Chatilla. Massacres against Christians also took place. Maronite Christians were even fighting against other Maronite Christians, etc. It was a civil war.

Imagine if we had turned our cheek when the Azerbaijanis were preparing to massacre the Armenians of Artsakh.

Also, as far as I understand, a huge number of Mongols (yes Genghis Khan's Mongols) were Christian. Didn't keep them from driving stakes through people did it?

True, but Mongols/Tatars became much more offensive when they converted to Islam. Timur Lenk was a bloodier person than Genghis Khan.

[karoaper]

It is said that the Hamidian massacres of 1895-96 had more of a religious character, and the 1915 genocide was done because of pan-turanist nationalism. The Armenians (along with the Assyrian and Greek Chrsitians) were the only ones in the Turks' way to unite with their long-lost Azerbaijani and Central Asian brothers. Abdul Hamid didn't have pan-turanism in his mind.

The analyses I read basically drew Abdul Hamid as a paranoid tirant, who was afraid of his own shadow. He knew his end was coming. Surrounded by stronger enemies, he decided to show his muscle on weaker Armenians.

Jihad could be declared when a non-Muslim country takes over Islamic land, but the Crusades don't have such limits. Saladdin himself - who is now widely depicted as a noble and tolerant Muslim - persecuted Armenians in Egypt, just because he thought Armenians were loyal to the Fatimids (the previous rulers of Egypt).

Didn't know about Saladdin.

It is said that Ariel Sharon ordered the massacre in Sabra and Chatilla. Massacres against Christians also took place. Maronite Christians were even fighting against other Maronite Christians, etc. It was a civil war.

Again, I have slightly different info. I always read and heard that Sharon was in charge of protecting the camps. However, knowing full well the hatred the Phalangists had for the Palestians and knowing what they would do, he ordered the camp's door opened and in a way gave the green light for the massacres. Either way, he's a pig and the Phalangists are wild dogs for their crimes against the helpless.

Imagine if we had turned our cheek when the Azerbaijanis were preparing to massacre the Armenians of Artsakh.

There's no way that actions in real life will be identical to the actions taught in the scriptures. "Turn the other cheek" is basically a teaching that provides the principles and the core of religion. Whatever we do will always depend more on survival and self-preservation. However, it is nice when the religious core, realizing just that, instills softer more humane attitudes.

True, but Mongols/Tatars became much more offensive when they converted to Islam. Timur Lenk was a bloodier person than Genghis Khan.

Agreed!

[skhara]

I was reading a book on the crusades. Armenians showed up all over the place. There was an incident where some European nobles were taken prisoner by Muslims and held in a fortified position. Some 70+ Armenians attempted a daring rescue by penetrating the stronghold through disguise and then killing the Muslim guards. But the Muslims approached and surrounded the stronghold. Although the realease of the prisoners were secured, the Armenians fate was not a pleasant one. I may have screwed up a few things, it's been a while since I read this book.

[Armenian]

Re: The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians

Skhara, I'm surprised you posted this thread.

Just realize that you are doing precisely what Neocons and Zionists want you to do - turn their war into everybody else's war. Our war is against pan-Turkism, not Islam. Sadly, Dadrian did what he did to gain attention for the Armenian Genocide. He, in essence, is taking advantage of the current anti-Muslim sentiments in this country. I wounder if he would do the same regarding the J-e-w-ish factor in the Armenian Genocide. Like Karoaper rightfully said, religion is used to rally the masses. It is not secret that secular Turks at the time, many of whom were of J-e-w-ish decent, manipulated the sentiments of the impoverished uneducated backward Muslim populations of the Anatolian interior to do their dirty deeds.

The real reasons surrounding the Armenian Genocide had nothing to do with Jihad or Islam, it had everything to do with Pan-Turkism. And you know who and what the Young Turks were. The region's Muslims, Arab and Iranian alike, saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of our genocide survivors. Armenian have historically enjoyed good cordial relations with Muslims. Even today, even in the current hostile environment there, Armenians enjoy good relations with the region's Muslims.

As far as the barbarity of some Muslims are concerned, I think it has more to do with environment, poverty, political manipulations, etc. Have you seen how barbaric some Christian in Asia Africa or South America can get? Besides which, wasn't it the Westerners that managed to kill something like a hundred millions people within the 20th century alone?

Regarding killing: Whether you drop a bomb, shoot a bullet at someone or you chop off a head, the end result is the same.

I don't want to sound like a apologist for Islam, I see Islam as a backward religion, but truth must be spoken and objectivity must be upheld.

[TomServo]

Re: The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians

It's all about identity. Islam has nothing to do with it.

I recently watched a documentary (I think it was on YouTube) where members of the PKK were discussing how they were going to protect their people, protect Kurdistan, and preserve the Kurdish identity and whatnot. And half of the volunteers came from regions in Turkey where Kurds were being oppressed and spoke only Turkish (and seemed to have Turkish names). Do you think any of these Kurdish Muslims want to go live with Muslims in Turkey?

And shame on Dadrian for capitalizing on American anti-Islamic sentiment.

[Armenian]

Re: The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians

And shame on Dadrian for capitalizing on American anti-Islamic sentiment.

Bravo.

[TomServo]

Re: The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians

I'm hoping that Syria becomes the second predominantly Muslim country to recognize the genocide.

Second because Lebanon recognizes it, and pretty much has a Muslim majority now (although some don't choose to accept that reality).

Plus, some Arab nationalists consider this part of Turkey to be Syrian territory (which it is): http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/751/chrncls.htm