What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[skhara]

May be.

Skhara I want to thank you one more time for helping me to solve my inside problems about our and your history.Now that I see armenians are generally in your way,I feel no more pain.I dont think Turks could be able to live together in Turkey with Armenians today so what ever happened did indeed to happen.İf you were living inside of us I cant imagine what would you do to us to harm and damage our unity.So it is only a romantic dream to live mixed together with Armenians freely visiting and living in İstanbul and Ani and Ağrı area.

So long.Bye

By the way, those caricatures are from American press at the time. Armenians were busy fleeing for their lives.

[winoman]

See what you've done Skhara.
I hope you're happy. You've gone and destroyed poor mad turks dream of living alongside Armenians in "turkish peace" (pax turdana). By living with Armenians, I of course ment using them, robbing them, discriminating against them, when the mood is right indeed killing them - you know, all the perks of being a turk in turdia.

[The Mad Turk]

How did you come to the conclusion that I am crying after seeing the impossibility of living together with Armenians today.I started this thread and the title is what would have happened today if we didnt deport the armenians out of Turkey.And I got the answer.I am not sorry or happy.

World is changing.İnstead of nationalizm multicultural unions are emerging in the world.We Turks are one of the most nationalist people.We know that we had to be like this in the past in order to survive.But today world is going to another direction and we know that we have to change.Armenian problem is just a small part of this.

But you people are not ready for the dialog yet.When the time comes we and you will have to admit certain things which we wont like completely.

[winoman]

We Turks are one of the most nationalist people.

The only true statement that you have ever posted here to my knowledge.

BTW I have had plenty of very in depth and constructive diologue with (informed/educated) Turks - on the internet and otherwise - stuff you both would not believe and I doubt even comprhend. (and believe me we were not always or even mostly in agreement about many things) Anyway we have no need to talk to nationalist idiots such as yourself - why bother really - you are not nearly on the level where anything worthwhile can be discussed...and it is certainly funny that you would claim that somehow the Turks might have a leg up on Armenians in terms of adapting to current realities in the world....or in being adaptable and capable in general...

And BTW - what I was/am laughing at is your hypocracy in the very silly, uniformed and irrelevant statements you make about living aloingside Armenians and such. Face it - you really don't know s hit about much of anything...

[The Mad Turk]

Winoman,

You dont deserve an answer and I shouldnt be personal but I just cant keep my mouth shut.and this has nothing to do with you being an armenian.You are a sick person.you keep on insulting us all the time.So you think you are smart but ı bet you have an İQ of less than 90.you may try and you will be surprised.You also need a pschological treatment.

[winoman]

Mad Turk - I know that you cannot comprhend (much, however you should know) that nearly every post you have made here - all of your attitudes exhibited and statements made since you have joined this forum - even your very presence here in light of such is a great insult to all of us.

[Vagharshapat]

Re: What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

Hey Turk friends youre talking bullxxxx bullxxxx bullxxxx. Read some books. I heard lots of witness accounts. If one of these things had happened to you you would be terrorist #1, an anti-Turk. This is real tragedy. They sent them to death. Those beautiful people, women, children innocent people. On the way they robbed them till they were naked, took their only food, they raped them, massacred them, they did this ruthlessly. Have some respect please. You're asking for corpses or you say that there were survivors, hey man even there are survivors from the xxxish genocide. They couldnt manage to destroy them all because it requires money and time and organization. Also there some sites in Turkey that Armenian corpses are buried and they are known but the government doesn't permit them to be opened. The Ittihad and Terakki send them to a one way trip expecting them to exhaust, die by hunger, cold, or by criminals and if they survive run, run, run and never come back! This was their ultimate evil purpose, even little children could see that but everybody in Turkey are blinded and I am so unlucky to live among these ignorant guys! Truth shall set us free...

[Armenian]

Re: What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

Theoretically, one of two things would have could have happened had it not been for the Armenian Genocide:

1 - We Armenians would have been able to gain our independance upon our historic lands and today our nation would most probably number something like 30-40 million living on our historic lands, from Van to Artsakh.

2 - We Armenian would have assimilated into Turkish soceity and would have become something like the Kurds today.

Nonetheless, from Artsakh to California, we Armenians today are a product of the Armenian Genocide. As offsprings of our murdered forefathers we will seek revenge one way or another, and Turks have no one but themselves to complain for this.

[Vagharshapat]

Re: What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

Hi Armenian,
You are talking about revenge. But revenge means blood, blood, blood. And from whom you will take revenge? All the persons responsible are dead by now. And the Turks in Turkey? They are all unaware of the situation. Since elementary schools they are brainwashed and blinded by official tales. In Turkey people are living in a virtual reality. Nobody has a relationship with the truth. It is like madness. And who created this madness, i will tell. But nothing can be solved by blood shedding. If you shed blood you become like the people who made the genocide. So this case can be solved by international courts and human rights. The reason this problem isnt solved is that the Jevish lobby and some powers are preventing this process. Do you thing Turkey has the power to prevent the recognition of genocide by the world? Why are they preventing this process and always protecting the Turks? Because they have full responsibility in the genocide and they themselves founded the Turkish republic. And the Emperialist powers are detaining the Armenians and playing with them as they played in the past. They know they are responsible too. Because they served the sionist forces as well. Turkey and Turkish people? they arent capable of planning and organizing such an evil plot. Of course they acted as an killing hand due to the propoganda and orders. All the muslim communities in Osmanli served these evil men, Turks, Kurds, Cherkess, Lazs, etc. But who made the plan? What was their purpose? These people Talat, Enver, Dr.Nazim and Kemal Ataturk are all from Salonika origin. So whats the big deal with Salonika? Salonika is the place with a large Jevish community; the biggest in the empire, in 1492 all the Saferad Jevs were relocated there. Also Salonika was the center of the Sabbetaist movement during 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. So 40 percent of Salonika was Jevish and there were 30 percent Turks with lots of Jevish converts and Sabbataists, 10 percent Albanians, 20 percent Greeks and others. Whats the importance of Salonika? The Jon-Turk movement started here and the revolutionary army that overthrew Sultan Abdulhamid moved to Istanbul from there! And these people were the people who overthrew Abdulhamid. But why was Abdulhamid overthrown and who supported this movement? In 1896 the first Sionist congress was gathered. Theodor Hertzl was the leader of the Sionists and in this congress they agreed on foundation of Israel. Palestine was then the property of Osmanli. They decided to purchase lands from Osmanli so they sent a committe to Abdulhamid for the offer. The head of the comitte was a osmanli Jevish man Emmanuel Karasso, he was the right hand of Theodor Hertzl. Of course the offer of 20 million gold was rejected. Who was this Emmanuel karasso? The grand master of the Saloniki Farmason Lodge and the man who founded the Jon-Turks. Who were the members of this lodge? Talat, Enver, Dr.Nazim(the mastermind of the genocide), Cavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Talat would later become the great master of this lodge in the 33rd degree! Jon-Turks had a couple of newspapers. For example the editor of the " JonTurk" newspaper was a Russian sionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky.
And that day when Abdulhamid was overthrown among the 4 persons who came to declare him that he was overthrown was Emmanuel Karasso! So they managed to overthrew the Sultan at last. The first president of Israel says that; if Abdulhamid wasnt overhrown it would take 30 years more to establish the state of Israel. Golda Meir also states that they are very glad that the founder of modern Turkey Ataturk is from Jevish origin! Ataturk once admitted that he was a descendant of Sabbatai Zwi. And in Salonika he went to the Semsi Efendi school. Semsi Efendi was a Jevish convert whose real name was Simon Zwi and he was a descendant of Sabbatai Zwi too. Later in a visit to Israel in an interview with a journalist Ataturk admitted that he had studied on Torah and he recited the “Sema Israel” prayer to the journalist and the journalist was surprised. This man was considered the father of Turks. These men possesed Turkism so much that they nearly become racists. An ordinary man on a street cant have claims like that. For example Ataturk invented a theory called The Sun-Language Theory claiming that Turks are the origin of all mankind and Turkish is the origin of all Languages. But these stupid theories started with the theorician of Ittihad and Terakki in other name Jon-Turks; Ziya Gokalp who was infact a Kurd of Diyarbakir! These men considered themselves as Turks. They were more Turk than real Turks. They founded the ideology of Pan-Turkism. They created legends, made up heroic stories and built a nation from scratch. They tought the Turks were the lost tribe of Israel. But the people in street were unaware of these stupid theories. These people were planning to build a big empire brom Balkans to China, it was called the Turan Empire. They coopareted with the Germans. But the Armenians and other Christian people were an obstacle in the way. So we know the rest of the story. They created an artificial country of their own. By some people Turkey was considered the first Jevish state of the century. The slave people were Turks, the administrators were Jevish.
Id like to recite a passage from an article;
In the Otoman Empire Jevs and Armenians were two big rival minorities. The rivalry between these two minorities was because of the claim for economical dominance. Armenians were always more talented than Jevs and they werent making tricks or frauds in commerce because it wasnt their way. But the Jevs were tricking because it was their way of commerce.
In 1870s the two branches of Judaism; Sabbetaists and Hebrews began to cooparate and gain strength. By the help of the French, Italian and other forces they recognized their United economic power. They began thinkinking of destroying the empire and building a brand new state that the system was designed by them. But with Armenians this wasnt possible. So they prepared for exterminating the Armenians; the biggest threat to them. The purpose was to extinguish the Armenians that founded a strong community in the various cities of Anatolia for centuries, and to establish a state that was dominated and administrated only by them. In 17th century Sabbatai Zwi had planned this; all the christians should have been exterminated. And the time had come and this aim should have been fulfilled. After Armenians were exterminated, the sabbetaists that were mostly wealthy and strong would come to Anatolia from the Balkans and take their place. And this exactly happened as they planned. If you look today all the rich elite of all the cities in Anatolia you will see that they are from sabbataian origin who took the place of Armenians. (I know these families personally) So the Jevs got rid of their biggest rivals in the empire.

Sabbetaist hid their identities among the other people in Balkans. Even though the other people felt that these sabbataists were different from themselves, they couldnt do anything. Because the other communities were mostly very poor. The Money and power were in the hands of the Sabbataists. They tought this difference was due to their wealth but it was the opposite; they were very different culturally and they got rich because they were actually Jevs.

Sabbataists gained higher ranks in the military, and today Turkish military is controlled by Sabbataists and they have strong relationships with Israel. The military was saviour in the eyes of Turkish people, so they obeyed the army without questioning and without knowing the real purpose. By the orders of Ittihad and Terakki most of the Armenians were killed either in their villages or on the way to Syria. Also today the press that is brainwashing the Turkish people and strongly denying the genocide at all costs are controlled by sabbataists.

The article states that; the Armenians always knew that it was these Jevish origin Sabbataists; Jon Turks and Ittihad and Terakki who killed their ancestors. The murderers were outside Turks, inside Jevish. Even tough they had Turkish names and muslim identities they realized this Truth because for centuries the Turks and Armenians lived in harmony. For that reason on the Genocide Monument in France they wrote "this genocide is made by Ittihad and terakki and by Jon Turks". Of course i dont totally agree with this article that they always lived in harmony. This lands werent conquered without blood. Of course living under Turkish rule wasnt easy but ordinary Turkish peasants are so naive that cant think of something like genocide. But they can serve it. But I know lots of Turks that resisted the genocide especially some offical administrators like the mayor of Lice and he was excuted. And lots of people saved Armenian families from the genocide including my family.

[Vagharshapat]

Re: What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

There is also another theory on genocide, its just a theory but worth thinking about it;

The Armenian and xxxish Holocausts have popularly been regarded as two distinct and unrelated dark episodes of recent history. This appearance weakens with careful and insightful study. May it be here suggested, perhaps for the first time, that they are not only inextricably connected but are indeed two phases of one lengthy operation which spanned close to fifty years, guided by a group of cunning, patient and most powerful planners.
The twentieth century has been called the century of oil. Our Age is referred to that of Hydrocarbon Man. Yet this phenomena is barely one hundred years old. It was a hundred years ago that our planet was actually shifting energy sources from coal to oil. In fact it all began in Northwestern Pennsylvania, in a remote little place called Titusville to be exact, where oil was first extracted via drilling yielding the first oil well. The American oil business itself was to be mastered and monopolized by John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company who was to supply the entire world's oil needs from the wells of Pennsylvania.
It is here necessary to point out one of the most important aspects of the oil business. Due to the extremely flammable nature of oil it's extraction, refining, and transport must be done under supremely stable conditions, in others words, in an environment of peace and tranquility. Rockefeller was able to become the "richest man in the world" by virtue of an early oil empire nestled in peaceful Pennsylvania. Standard Oil's first bout with serious worldwide competition would come from a region halfway around the world whose stability was far from that of Pennsylvania.
An important phenomena and backdrop to understanding foundation of the twin holocausts is to realize that the major oil region of the earth lies within the territory populated by Moslems. Of significant importance are the facts that within the Koran are passages, which teach intolerance towards "infidels" who don't embrace Islam. These passages are responsible for producing many violent and bloody episodes throughout history.
In the 1880's, the French branch of the Rothschild family acquired interests in Russia's Baku oil fields in an effort to supply their refinery on the Adriatic with cheap Russian oil. In exchange for these interests they built a railroad linking Baku to the newly acquired Black Sea port of Batum. This opened up the Baku oil, a major world supply, to the world. It had previously been geographically locked in by the mountains of the Caucasus.[The Swedish Nobel family had been supplying internal Russia with the Baku oil by way of rivers as well as via the Caspian Sea]. With the success of the new railroad, the Rothschilds had more oil than they could actually sell. Overcoming their fear of competing with the giant Standard oil, they sought out the huge markets east of Suez.
At the recommendation of their shipping broker, they sought out a man to help them penetrate these markets. His name was Marcus Samuel. Samuel had many contacts throughout the Far East. When the Rothschilds proposed to sell their oil to Samuel, understanding the magnitude of the opportunity, and understanding the competition with a foe like Standard oil, he set about tackling the logistics of successfully competing with the giant company. Samuel understood that he needed to sell his oil at a cheaper price. In his efforts to do this he reduced transportation costs by designing bulk tankers which were safe enough to pass through the Suez Canal. Standard 's costs would be much higher as they transported their oil around the tip of Africa in clipper ships that were loaded with pre-filled cans.
Marcus Samuel's new and improved bulk tankers would shave 4,000 miles off the trip to the Far East by utilizing the Suez Canal. Previous oil tanker designs failed to meet the stringent safety requirements imposed by the Suez Canal Company.
In 1892, Samuel's coup would unleash forces that would shape the history of mankind. His first oil tanker picked up it's load of Baku oil from the Rothschild's Batum refinery and sailed through the Dardenelles and on through the Suez canal to the far east where the Shell oil company became, overnight the predominant supplier of Kerosene replacing Standard oil. The great Standard world monopoly had been busted.
The Shell oil company relationship went on to thrive even after Samuel's nine-year contract with the Rothschilds as it would pick up a partner with addition of the Royal Dutch Petroleum Company which was making its fortune drilling for oil in Sumatra. The new company, British Dutch Petroleum, would soon be joined by the Rothschilds forming the Asiatic Petroleum Company, later calling itself the Royal Dutch/Shell Group which would eventually join Standard Oil and the Nobels in a worldwide oil cartel.
The decision by the shrewd French Rothschild branch to diversify into other areas of oil exploitation was, presumably, a calculated one. Three years after they joined Royal Dutch, production at Baku would come to an abrupt halt in 1905. Although shaken by political activity, the principal disruption was due to the violence of the ethnic conflict between the region's Moslems and the minority population of Armenians who are Christians. This ethnic conflict caused the first interruption of oil distribution to the world market. Standard oil was quick to supplant the needs of the effected markets as its source was operating under the blanket of peace and would flow until dried.
The Royal/Dutch/Shell Group (and the Nobels) watched their Baku investments go up in flames. Ethnic conflict was at the root of the matter. It could be safely assumed that they were taking measures to eliminate the possibility of that happening in the future. Their oil empire could not survive operating under those conditions. It was plain and simple. In fact, Standard had to be taking notes as well; they couldn't afford to ignore the lessons of Baku.
Considering this brief history at the dawn of the new Oil Age, a question presents itself to the inquisitive and demanding student. To an all-powerful banking family like the Rothschilds, whose vast wealth bankrolled many a war, causing millions of fatalities... was the removal of a small minority like the Armenians a fair price to pay for the peace in a region so crucial to the development and investment of the Far East, which contained countless millions, later billions of consumers? Squeamish the Rothschilds were not, their line of work requires pragmatism to rule their day.
It would be fair to say that the genocide of a group of a million or so, to serve the benefit of a billion or so, is less of a question of should it be done, than how it could be done. So as not to reveal any plausible motive which could link the actual planners to the genocide, the scheme involved a proxy party, which was manipulated through layers of influence, providing sufficient cover for the planners.
The mere elimination of the Armenian population of Baku would not solve the problem of ethnic conflict in that region. The surrounding areas would provide reservoir effect in resupplying the conflicting minority element. [It is here interesting to note that there is no malice on the part of big business in their decision to erase a population. It is simply easier to erase a million than tens or hundreds of millions of the surrounding Moslem population]
Of course, history tells us that it was the Turks, and not big business that committed the Armenian atrocities. However, if one looks closely, one would find that the Turks owed more than one favor to the French government which aided Turkey in it's recent past. It was Napoleon III who fought for Turkey's entrance into the concert of Europe. France took the lead in Turkey's economic development with French securities and investment exceeding that of any other nation.
French leaders come and go. However a constant behind France's economic power was the French branch of the Rothschild family. Napoleon III was a Rothschild man. Specifically, Baron James de Rothschild's man. Baron James was, financially and hence politically, the most powerful figure in France, indeed on earth during his time. Napoleon's efforts on behalf of Turkey were Rothschilds' efforts. The question arises. Was the Armenian genocide an obligation demanded by Turkey's creditor? The Armenian massacres of 1894 and 1896 occurred merely two years after Baku oil first began to flow through the Suez Canal to the Far Eastern markets. Armenians were living within the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years, how incredible fortuitous for the oilmen that ethnic hatred would heat up to such a pitch as to consume their population! The Armenian genocide, during World War I, brought stability to the Baku oil region. A further accomplishment of World War I was the successful demise of the Ottoman Empire. The oil fields of Mesopotamia were to be brought under British "protection". World War I was in essence, Phase I. With its successful completion, World War II or Phase II of the genocidal ambitions of international oil companies would be put into effect- securing the Suez Canal region by eliminating mass immigration of European xxxs into Palestine.
Of the French Rothschilds, it was Alphonse and his younger brother Edmond who were considered the Rothschild family's oil experts. One could begin to imagine Edmond's lack of enthusiasm when confronted with Theodor Hertzl's ambitious ideas about financing massive xxxish immigration into Palestine during their meeting in 1896. Hertzl sought Rothschild's help in financing this massive immigration. Although Rothschild was by far the single most important source of funding for the xxxish settlements in Palestine, his intentions were primarily for investment purposes. It was slow steady growth that he looked forward to. Not the mass immigration of millions of "beggars" into an area as crucial to his oil business as the Suez Canal region. Certainly as volatile as Baku, Palestine and the surrounding Moslem areas were susceptible to the same problems of ethnic disruption. An Arab reaction to an influx of "infidel" xxxs, carrying with them the disease of western culture would spell disaster for the region's peace. Hertzl, obviously unaware of the political environment of the area, even approached the Turkish sultan for assistance, and of course was turned away.
Theodor Hertzl, in his, naive and unsuccessful initial drive to secure a homeland for the xxxs of the world, decided to take his case away from the bigshots and put it to the people. It was amongst them that he began to receive support for his ideas, and in turn making some very powerful people very nervous, stirring forces that would come to consume the xxxs of Europe whom, ironically, he was trying to protect.
World War I ended in 1918. In 1919, a young agent of German Army intelligence, Adolf Hitler, would be sent to infiltrate a little known political party. Phase two would begin.
The destruction of European xxxry was the result of massive covert planning. It was designed to achieve a variety of aims. One central and hidden aim was to eliminate the threat of uncontrolled massive xxxish immigration into Palestine. It was only through careful, discriminating immigration that the fledgling xxxish colony could ever hope to survive the fragile process of colonization. It was imperative to prevent the onslaught of penniless, unskilled masses of "human material". The majority of which were perceived to be incapable and/or unwilling to tackle the hard physical labor needed to make the desert bloom (95% of the early Russian immigrants actually left Palestine because of the hardships they encountered there).
Were the Rothschilds mixed up in the planning of the Holocaust? Why did they need a xxxish puppet-state/colony in the Middle East? Does oil factor into all of this?

When you combine the two theories based on facts, do they make sense? (also keep in mind that this Rothschild was the man who founded the Grand Orient Mason Lodge in Salonika!)

When we come to the point, I am not making any excuses here. The genocide is a fact and The Turks, Kurds, Cherkess, Laz and other muslims killed the Armenians by the order of the government. What I am trying to say is we are living in a very diry world, with dirty games, lots of strange evil things happening in the world that we dont know. Lots of countries abused the Armenians as a card and let them down. Now they seem like protecting them, its a big lie. They always think about their interests and Money. They didnt help their christian brothers. When ambassador Morgenthau writes in his memories “I did everything to stop Talat”, thats a lie. Hes just making excuses and trying to get away with this, he is playing two sides, he is in this scheme too, because he is also a Jev. America knew about this, everybody knew about this, but they did nothing to stop this. When the French evacuated Adana, they abandoned Armenians there leaving them to be massacred. When Russians evacuated East Anatolia they left the Armenians there, everybody used Armenians like a napkin. So to have revenge from today's Turks, will it help? Jevs decided a Turkey to be founded so it happened, if they wanted an Armenia it would surely have happened. Now they want a Kurdistan it is happening. We ordinary people are powerless infront of these big emperialist evil powers so we can only pray for the brotherhood of all people and for peace, and for all the victims of war. I hope Armenians return to their homelands in peace…