Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

[Lucin]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Anti-Armenian protest in Washington:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppawk...Fimagine%2Ephp

Look at these idiots...

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Was that a Pinochio?! Wow, I can't believe the Turks are calling themsevles liars by putting a Pinochio statue!

[LadySilver]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

I wish that's what they meant.

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

They're so senseless and effortless, that anyone might think that that's what they meant by their "specific demonstration".

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

This is the entire premise for their argument that what happened to the Armenian people was not a genocide, but a civil war. In their eyes, defending yourself, and fighting for your rights is treason, or treachery, or turning traitor, etc. Unfortunately, it can only be viewed this way if you have a gross misunderstanding of the history.

I have done extensive research on this genocide subject, and there is no doubt there were rebel bands of Armenians that were killing Turks starting in the 1880's. However, Turks fail to understand that this wasn't treason, or a Turkish genocide. You must understand the living conditions for Armenians long before the Tashnag party, Henchak party, or 1880. They seem to have the impression that the 2 cultures lived in perfect harmony prior to Armenians revolting, simply because nothing on a mass scale had transpired between them. What they overlook is the fact (as documented by many missionaries, officials, and witnesses from many nations, INCLUDING TURKS) that Armenians were treated as 2nd rate citizens under the Millet system. They were not allowed to vote, serve in the military, or bare arms (in spite of REPEATEDLY being the target of infidel hate crimes), they had to pay higher taxes, their testimonials could not be used against Muslims in court, etc. The non-Muslim minorities (of which, the Armenians were the largest) were heavily oppressed people.

Things got MUCH worse for the minorities when Sultan Abul Hamid II took over the Ottoman Empire in 1876. Armenians were oppressed like never before, and killings were a regular occurrence. This is how Sultan Hamid got the nick name "The Bloody Sultan". The creation of Henchak, Tashnag, etc. were a reactionary move to the killings that came WELL before the late 1880's. The "gorillas" started attacking Turks (by far and large, diplomats and officials) because Armenians were being horribly mistreated, not just for the hell of it. It is also important to note that these were small bands that posed very little threat. To react in the way the Turks did in 1894 - 1896 is absurd, and was only meant to demonstrate that, while the Ottoman Empire may be falling apart, the Sultan was still in charge. The Hamidian massacres were not an act of Turkish self defense. They were a show of power demonstrated mostly on the innocent that had nothing to do with the revolts. These were people just trying to live out their lives in a chaotic time, and were unfortunately used to set an example to those defying Sultan Hamid. This is also why Armenians were relieved, and excited when the Young Turks overthrew Sultan Hamid II in 1908. They claimed they didn't like the way Hamid was running the empire, and believed it was essential to have a constitution and parliament if the Ottomans were ever to be mighty again. They also promised better treatment and more rights for the minorities. Of course, that turned out to be a crock, as well.

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

This is the entire premise for their argument that what happened to the Armenian people was not a genocide, but a civil war. In their eyes, defending yourself, and fighting for your rights is treason, or treachery, or turning traitor, etc. Unfortunately, it can only be viewed this way if you have a gross misunderstanding of the history.

I have done extensive research on this genocide subject, and there is no doubt there were rebel bands of Armenians that were killing Turks starting in the 1880's. However, Turks fail to understand that this wasn't treason, or a Turkish genocide. You must understand the living conditions for Armenians long before the Tashnag party, Henchak party, or 1880. They seem to have the impression that the 2 cultures lived in perfect harmony prior to Armenians revolting, simply because nothing on a mass scale had transpired between them. What they overlook is the fact (as documented by many missionaries, officials, and witnesses from many nations, INCLUDING TURKS) that Armenians were treated as 2nd rate citizens under the Millet system. They were not allowed to vote, serve in the military, or bare arms (in spite of REPEATEDLY being the target of infidel hate crimes), they had to pay higher taxes, their testimonials could not be used against Muslims in court, etc. The non-Muslim minorities (of which, the Armenians were the largest) were heavily oppressed people.

Things got MUCH worse for the minorities when Sultan Abul Hamid II took over the Ottoman Empire in 1876. Armenians were oppressed like never before, and killings were a regular occurrence. This is how Sultan Hamid got the nick name "The Bloody Sultan". The creation of Henchak, Tashnag, etc. were a reactionary move to the killings that came WELL before the late 1880's. The "gorillas" started attacking Turks (by far and large, diplomats and officials) because Armenians were being horribly mistreated, not just for the hell of it. It is also important to note that these were small bands that posed very little threat. To react in the way the Turks did in 1894 - 1896 is absurd, and was only meant to demonstrate that, while the Ottoman Empire may be falling apart, the Sultan was still in charge. The Hamidian massacres were not an act of Turkish self defense. They were a show of power demonstrated mostly on the innocent that had nothing to do with the revolts. These were people just trying to live out their lives in a chaotic time, and were unfortunately used to set an example to those defying Sultan Hamid. This is also why Armenians were relieved, and excited when the Young Turks overthrew Sultan Hamid II in 1908. They claimed they didn't like the way Hamid was running the empire, and believed it was essential to have a constitution and parliament if the Ottomans were ever to be mighty again. They also promised better treatment and more rights for the minorities. Of course, that turned out to be a crock, as well.

And this is exactly why us Armenians get mad or hurt when people saay that there was a "Turkish Genocide" and that the Armenians were just victims of war. Luckily, the "Turkish Genocide" isn't even being considered by the government or anything. Good job, Crimson Glow. You proved what I said about how the Armenians' attacks on the Turks was caused by unfair treatment, exploitation, and abuse.

Crimson Glow, ուրտեղէ՞ն առիր այս տեղեկութիւնները. ես միայն կ՚ուզեմ գիտնալ որ տեսնեմ եւ աւելի հասկնամ ցեղասպանութիւնը։

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Well there is no doubt that Armenian irregulars murdered a certain number of innocent civilians in east Anatolia during the carnage of WWI and the genocide, but to say that the acts of a few gangs, who were independent of central command, amounts to genocide, then this is nothing more than historical revisionism. It is especially ludicrous when you consider that this "Turkish Genocide" is a relatively new concept, and was only introduced when the Armenian Genocide started gaining international recognition.

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Well there is no doubt that Armenian irregulars murdered a certain number of innocent civilians in east Anatolia during the carnage of WWI and the genocide, but to say that the acts of a few gangs, who were independent of central command, amounts to genocide, then this is nothing more than historical revisionism. It is especially ludicrous when you consider that this "Turkish Genocide" is a relatively new concept, and was only introduced when the Armenian Genocide started gaining international recognition.

It's like we have the same exact thoughts! This is exactly why the "Turkish Genocide" will never last. Thank you for adding more depth to my assumptions, ArmSurvival.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Էլիա - I have no idea what you said in that last sentence. I can't read or write Armenian.

It is especially ludicrous when you consider that this "Turkish Genocide" is a relatively new concept, and was only introduced when the Armenian Genocide started gaining international recognition.

I'll tell you what's far more ludicrous: The figures. I've seen Turks claim that Armenians killed as many as 3 million of their ancestors. Now let's take a look at why this fuzzy math is so preposterous.

Turkey claims there's no way 1.5 million Armenians died, because there weren't even a million Armenians within Ottoman boarders. Ok. Let's just go with that for a second since they want to play it that way. Let's say for the hell of it, that there were 900,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Take away the women, children, elderly, sick and disabled. What does that leave us with? Let's be really generous to give the Turks the benefit of the doubt. 200k, maybe 300k able-bodied men? Now let's suppose EVERY SINGLE ONE of those able-bodied males took up arms, and went to go kill themselves some Muslims. Are you trying to tell me 300k Armenian villagers, with no central government, and no army, killed 3 million members of the almighty Ottoman Empire? Either Armenians had god like powers in fighting, or Turkey is full of sh*t. The slightest bit of logic and sensibility would force you to conclude that the ladder is true.

So what's really happening here? Oh, the Ottomans lost around 2-3 million people, alright. However, that is the GRAND TOTAL of their pre-war, and WWI loses. Those millions were killed by Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, the French, Russians, etc. They're trying to pin their GRAND TOTAL deaths during WWI on the Armenians, in a pathetically weak attempt to divert attention and resources away from the REAL genocide: The state ordered killings of the Ottoman Armenian population. Luckily, it's never going to amount to anything. No one speaks of, nor cares about the Turkish claims of a genocide.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Yes Crimson, the more you analyze the claim of "Turkish genocide", the more ridiculous it sounds.

However, just so you're up to date with their pseudo-historical claims, they claim that those Armenian villagers and fedayeens were getting support from the Russian government when Russia had advanced into Ottoman Armenia, thus making the Armenian fighters seem like they had some type of central command. They actually say that the Armenian extremists' plan was to murder Muslims, in order for Muslims to commit genocide on Armenians, so that the Armenians would then get support from the major powers, who would then help the Armenians create an independent state. Crazy, huh?