Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

Էլիա - I have no idea what you said in that last sentence. I can't read or write Armenian.




I'll tell you what's far more ludicrous: The figures. I've seen Turks claim that Armenians killed as many as 3 million of their ancestors. Now let's take a look at why this fuzzy math is so preposterous.

Turkey claims there's no way 1.5 million Armenians died, because there weren't even a million Armenians within Ottoman boarders. Ok. Let's just go with that for a second since they want to play it that way. Let's say for the hell of it, that there were 900,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Take away the women, children, elderly, sick and disabled. What does that leave us with? Let's be really generous to give the Turks the benefit of the doubt. 200k, maybe 300k able-bodied men? Now let's suppose EVERY SINGLE ONE of those able-bodied males took up arms, and went to go kill themselves some Muslims. Are you trying to tell me 300k Armenian villagers, with no central government, and no army, killed 3 million members of the almighty Ottoman Empire? Either Armenians had god like powers in fighting, or Turkey is full of sh*t. The slightest bit of logic and sensibility would force you to conclude that the ladder is true.

So what's really happening here? Oh, the Ottomans lost around 2-3 million people, alright. However, that is the GRAND TOTAL of their pre-war, and WWI loses. Those millions were killed by Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, the French, Russians, etc. They're trying to pin their GRAND TOTAL deaths during WWI on the Armenians, in a pathetically weak attempt to divert attention and resources away from the REAL genocide: The state ordered killings of the Ottoman Armenian population. Luckily, it's never going to amount to anything. No one speaks of, nor cares about the Turkish claims of a genocide.

I said, "Where did you get this information from; I want to know so that I could understand the genocide more clearly"

Great analysis of the Turkish government's idiotic claims. lol, the Turks are so scared of arguing with this logic, that they're not even saying anything! I agree, that no one is going to give a sh*t of what the Turks "say" about a "Turkish Genocide". At least that's one good thing about what's currently happening regarding the Armenian Genocide.

Yes Crimson, the more you analyze the claim of "Turkish genocide", the more ridiculous it sounds.

However, just so you're up to date with their pseudo-historical claims, they claim that those Armenian villagers and fedayeens were getting support from the Russian government when Russia had advanced into Ottoman Armenia, thus making the Armenian fighters seem like they had some type of central command. They actually say that the Armenian extremists' plan was to murder Muslims, in order for Muslims to commit genocide on Armenians, so that the Armenians would then get support from the major powers, who would then help the Armenians create an independent state. Crazy, huh?

Are you kidding me!? What kind of idiots would try to get people to committ genocide on them, just to have the possibility of getting a country (which isn't even related in this case)! And besides, they're contradicting themselves by saying that there was a Genocide (even though the causes and reasons were made up). And the only reason the US is actually "believing" (they aren't really) this sh*t is because it doesn't want to lose their good relationship with Turkey, which if they did lose, would allow Russians to carry nuclear weapons through the channel between Anatolia and the Balkans to Iran. I don't think trade is much of a reason anymore. But that's not even a good reason for the US to do that! You know what happened when France accepted the Genocide?! Turkey didn't do any trade with France for a month or something, and then they started trading again! Can you believe this? And it's true, because Turkey's economy is sooo bad, that it actually needs to depend on US and France trade! Eventually, Turkey will fall, and Greater Armenia will be freed to the rightful owners!

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

I said, "Where did you get this information from; I want to know so that I could understand the genocide more clearly"

I was born and raised in the US, specifically in a SW suburb of Chicago, where the yuppies stare at you blankly when you mention Armenian. I never knew any Armenians growing up. All of my relatives live in So Cal. My parents never really discussed the genocide. Quite frankly, they don't know jack about it. It was just some insignificant thing during my childhood, when my biggest concern was assimilating. I often felt embarrassed about being "weird" due to my ethnic background.

In my early 20's, I started taking greater interest in my ethnicity. Naturally, digging around on the internet, the first thing I came across was talk of the genocide. Between not having much diaspora influence around to drill it in me that the genocide happened, and seeing how vehemently the Turks denied these accusations, I started thinking "...maybe the Armenians ARE lying". Being the ever inquisitive bastard I am, I launched my research on the subject. It was around a year long journey of reading books, archives, websites, memos, diaries, watching movies, documentaries, etc. I started by reading as much Turkish biased info as I could to start my understanding of the events from their perspective. By the end of that, I already started getting the feeling that something wasn't adding up. The Turkish side couldn't pick one story to stick to. None of the denial excuses were consistent, and only seemed to contradicted each other. Then I dove into the Armenian side, followed by general history info that was unrelated to the genocide (just various time lines from that era). It wasn't very difficult to see that the Armenian side made far more sense, and had much more supporting evidence. Both sides have their share of propaganda, but once you brush aside all the BS, and let the dust settle, it was obvious that the Turkish defense didn't have a leg to stand on.

I had pages and pages bookmarked off the net. I had just gotten the internet at home when I started my research. Unfortunately, I had a virus crash my computer a little over a year later, and I lost all those bookmarks (I'd estimate around 100 pages). Anyhow, there is no one place that holds all the info, nor one that holds all accurate info. The best thing I can tell you is to read as much as you can from non-Turkish or Armenian sources, and put it all together. I actually wrote up a brief summary (well....as brief as you can get about a topic this complex) about the details leading up to the genocide. The longer history is often overlooked, and is why Turks can get a foot in the door when denying the genocide. I put together a piece to tackle all that. I wanted a few people who are familiar with the history to proofread it for any inaccuracies (I typed it all up in one, long day, so I could have easily screwed up something trying to condense all that info). Once it's perfected, I wanted to see if we could make it a locked sticky in this section.

And the only reason the US is actually "believing" (they aren't really) this sh*t is because it doesn't want to lose their good relationship with Turkey,

The US doesn't believe it. See the President's address from the 24th:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070424/20070424006115.html?.v=1

They use everything but "the G-word" to describe the events. The only reason they stop short of using the word is because, as you said, their hands are tied with Turkey right now. 39 individual states have officially recognized the genocide already. Last year, IL made it mandatory to teach the genocide in school. The charade WILL come to an end for Turkey, soon.

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

I was born and raised in the US, specifically in a SW suburb of Chicago, where the yuppies stare at you blankly when you mention Armenian. I never knew any Armenians growing up. All of my relatives live in So Cal. My parents never really discussed the genocide. Quite frankly, they don't know jack about it. It was just some insignificant thing during my childhood, when my biggest concern was assimilating. I often felt embarrassed about being "weird" due to my ethnic background.

In my early 20's, I started taking greater interest in my ethnicity. Naturally, digging around on the internet, the first thing I came across was talk of the genocide. Between not having much diaspora influence around to drill it in me that the genocide happened, and seeing how vehemently the Turks denied these accusations, I started thinking "...maybe the Armenians ARE lying". Being the ever inquisitive bastard I am, I launched my research on the subject. It was around a year long journey of reading books, archives, websites, memos, diaries, watching movies, documentaries, etc. I started by reading as much Turkish biased info as I could to start my understanding of the events from their perspective. By the end of that, I already started getting the feeling that something wasn't adding up. The Turkish side couldn't pick one story to stick to. None of the denial excuses were consistent, and only seemed to contradicted each other. Then I dove into the Armenian side, followed by general history info that was unrelated to the genocide (just various time lines from that era). It wasn't very difficult to see that the Armenian side made far more sense, and had much more supporting evidence. Both sides have their share of propaganda, but once you brush aside all the BS, and let the dust settle, it was obvious that the Turkish defense didn't have a leg to stand on.

I had pages and pages bookmarked off the net. I had just gotten the internet at home when I started my research. Unfortunately, I had a virus crash my computer a little over a year later, and I lost all those bookmarks (I'd estimate around 100 pages). Anyhow, there is no one place that holds all the info, nor one that holds all accurate info. The best thing I can tell you is to read as much as you can from non-Turkish or Armenian sources, and put it all together. I actually wrote up a brief summary (well....as brief as you can get about a topic this complex) about the details leading up to the genocide. The longer history is often overlooked, and is why Turks can get a foot in the door when denying the genocide. I put together a piece to tackle all that. I wanted a few people who are familiar with the history to proofread it for any inaccuracies (I typed it all up in one, long day, so I could have easily screwed up something trying to condense all that info). Once it's perfected, I wanted to see if we could make it a locked sticky in this section.

Wow, I'm so glad that you're contributing to the Armenian Cause! I contribute to the Armenian Cause by going to Armenian Scouts (Homenetmen) on Sundays and, of course, I go to Armenian School on Saturdays. Crimson Glow, I'd be delighted to translate your brief summary into Armenian (Western) and you could have someone else translate it into Eastern Armenian! Then, pretty much everyone will be able to read it! You should think about extending your summary to other websites, to make it more public or something... But, of course, I can't translate it until all the errors are fixed, so when you're done fixing the mistakes, go ahead and PM it to me so that I could start translating it. And for words I don't know in Armenian, I'll just use my dictionary and/or the internet, but don't worry, I already know Armenian grammar and everything (at least for Western Armenian). I am graduating from the Armenian School this year.

The US doesn't believe it. See the President's address from the 24th:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070424/20070424006115.html?.v=1

They use everything but "the G-word" to describe the events. The only reason they stop short of using the word is because, as you said, their hands are tied with Turkey right now. 39 individual states have officially recognized the genocide already. Last year, IL made it mandatory to teach the genocide in school. The charade WILL come to an end for Turkey, soon.

Ya, that's what I mean when I said "(they aren't really)". The Turks cannot hide the truth!

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

I actually already posted it on several of the car forums I belong to, as well as the Tool Army fan site just before April 24th. There were some revisions I wanted to make to it though before I call it a final copy to add to AC. I want this to be as cohesive, comprehensive, and thorough a piece as possible for something that's not a book. I took the time to put this together for a few reasons.

A. I have something to copy/paste for when I'm trying to educate "odars" on this subject, instead of trying to explain it a million times over.

B. There's something to point to for Turks who keep making repetitive, incorrect statements about the history of events. If they want to quarrel with what I've posted, they can do that in a separate thread.

C. Most Armenians don't even know the details of the history revolving around the genocide. All they know is the April 24th date. This makes it difficult to rebuttal against Turkish denial comments, no matter how ridiculous there comments are to those educated about the subject.

Thanks for the offer to translate it to Armenian. I will most certainly forward it to you after it's complete. I'm also thinking about adding the most common Turkish denial arguments, with counterpoints to show the fallacies in those arguments. This would again be to create a FAQ-like piece for the uncreative Turks that flood this board, parroting the state company lines. I'll keep you abreast of the progress.

[Էլիա]

Re: Թրքակա՞ն Ցեղասպանութիւն (Turkish Genocide?)

I actually already posted it on several of the car forums I belong to, as well as the Tool Army fan site just before April 24th. There were some revisions I wanted to make to it though before I call it a final copy to add to AC. I want this to be as cohesive, comprehensive, and thorough a piece as possible for something that's not a book. I took the time to put this together for a few reasons.

A. I have something to copy/paste for when I'm trying to educate "odars" on this subject, instead of trying to explain it a million times over.

B. There's something to point to for Turks who keep making repetitive, incorrect statements about the history of events. If they want to quarrel with what I've posted, they can do that in a separate thread.

C. Most Armenians don't even know the details of the history revolving around the genocide. All they know is the April 24th date. This makes it difficult to rebuttal against Turkish denial comments, no matter how ridiculous there comments are to those educated about the subject.

Thanks for the offer to translate it to Armenian. I will most certainly forward it to you after it's complete. I'm also thinking about adding the most common Turkish denial arguments, with counterpoints to show the fallacies in those arguments. This would again be to create a FAQ-like piece for the uncreative Turks that flood this board, parroting the state company lines. I'll keep you abreast of the progress.

I think it's a very great idea! And thanks for letting me be the person to translate it into Western Armenian (if you also want Eastern Armenian, maybe you should ask Lion or karoaper ) Anyway, don't forget to add the "Turkish Genocide" thing and how it's not even close to a genocide, etc... Also, may I use your finalized version for the same uses that you're going to use it for, because I'm also becoming tedious from explaining it over and over again. If yes, please tell me where you are going to post the finalized version so that I may use it. Thank you!