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He's still somewhat of a negationist (perhaps only because he lives and works in Turkey) but seems to be changing his tune.
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg185510.html
Fuat Dündar: 1915 was part of a "systematic ethnic engineering" project
by Talin Suciyan
ISTANBUL - Speaking in Istanbul in March, historian Fuat Dündar argued
that the Armenian "deportations" of 1915 were part of a "systematic ethnic
engineering" project undertaken by the Ottoman government, which was
controlled by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) at the time.
Mr. Dündar, who received his Ph.D. from the prestigious École des Hautes
Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris, has studied the cipher
telegrams written by members of the CUP government and tracked the
ethnic and demographic changes in Anatolia between 1913 and 1918. For
his master's degree, he had focused mainly on the displacement of Muslim
populations, publishing a book titled Ittihat ve Terakki'nin
Müslümanlari Iskan Politikasi (The CUP's settlement policy for Muslims).
He is also the author of Türkiye Nüfus Sayimlarinda Azinliklar
(Minorities in Turkey's censuses).
At the "Armenian conference" held in 2005 at Istanbul's Bilgi
University, Mr. Dündar presented some of his findings. "Deportation is
not a holistic and premeditated project," he concluded at the time. But
now, speaking before a group of about 60 activists, academics, and
journalist at Tarih ve Toplum Bilimleri Enstitusu (History and Social
Sciences Institute), Mr. Dündar declares, "deportation is a conscious
decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance."
What follows is a conversation between this correspondent and Fuat
Dündar, which also appeared in Turkish in Agos.
Q: You wrote your Ph.D. thesis on settlement policies during the CUP
period between 1913 and 1918. Are you talking about a systematic
settling policy covering all those who were not ethnic Turks?
F. Dündar: Actually Turks were also resettled in order to obtain a
predominance or majority of Turkish identity. We can say that ethnic
engineering was conducted. The Turks' duty was to turkify. In the
framework of this engineering, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Albanians,
Georgians, Circassians, Laz people, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Nasturies,
and Bulgarians were displaced.
Q: Was this systematic?
F. Dündar: Yes, both systematic and chronologically continuous. In 1913,
the policy targeted Bulgarians. At that time, the territories that now
belong to Greece belonged to Bulgarians. The Bulgarian army was powerful
and that posed a threat to Istanbul. So 50,000 Bulgarians were displaced
and sent to Bulgaria, and 50,000 Turks from Bulgaria came and settled in
their place. Then came the turn of Greeks. [The CUP leader] Halil
Mentese confessed this chronologic continuity. He said, "After
Bulgarians now it's the Greeks' turn."
On October 22, 1914, the policy of expelling Greeks was halted because
two days earlier a deal was made with Germany in which there was also
financial aid. Therefore, for the sake of the state's stability, the
attacks against Greeks were stopped. Greeks were displaced inland from
the shores and the borders to be used as a tool to threaten [Greece] in
the future.
Toward the end of 1914, we can see the displaced [Muslim] people in
Zeitun. While Armenians were sent away, displaced Muslims were settled
in their places. The purpose of this population exchange was to create a
safe homeland. In 1915 Armenians were expelled from the region. Then, in
1916, the policy start targeting Kurds. New "replacement" commissions
were gathered. During the same period Kurds fleed from Russia.
Q: Why?
F. Dündar: Because they were pro-Ottoman Kurds. Russians too wanted to
expel and get rid of Kurds. But not by killing them. In 1917, in
Palestine, Jews become the target [of the CUP]. All these steps were
parts of the CUP's project. Thus, the systematic character is obvious.
Q: How many people were displaced?
F. Dündar: As you know, [the columnist] Murat Bardakçi has publicized
parts of the "notebook of Talat Pasha" after keeping it to himself for
20 years. He does not even say the dates when the notebook was written.
Had Bardakçi acknowledged this notebook 20 years ago, we would have
progressed much further in our research. In my opinion the notebook was
written by the end of 1915. Only according to Talat Pasha's notebook, 80
percent of 1.5 million Armenians were deported. Muslims who escaped from
Russian army come to around 1.2 million people, of whom around a million
are Kurds and 200,000, Turks. Turks were made to resettle in the regions
in which Armenians had been living. Kurds were scattered in
Turkish-populated areas. Tens of thousands of Assyrians, Nasturis,
Circassians, and Arabs too. At that time the population of Anatolia was
around 12 million. One-third of this population was displaced and
resettled.
Q: What are your sources?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams. They are the operational documents -
executive orders - of the CUP government. They are not decisions taken
in various congresses. Cipher telegrams are operational documents.
Q: What is a cipher telegram?
F. Dündar: These are telegrams written in code by special telegraph
officers and can be decoded only by those who have the key. Codes were
changed about every three months.
We can read them because Talat Pasha wrote them in a regular way and
they were coded by the telegraph officer. These documents are in the
Ottoman archives. Anyone able to read Ottoman can go and read them.
However, this does not mean that the cipher telegrams are archived
fully. The archives are open, but this does not mean that one can find
all of the telegrams there.
The fact that ethnic engineering was done through telegrams makes the
whole story even more meaningful. Over the course of five years, the
whole population structure changed in a certain geographic area. There
is no other instance of this.
Q: How were the geographic borders defined?
F. Dündar: The CUP's target was Anatolia [defined in modern Turkish as
all of Asia Minor]. According to me, the regions to which Armenians were
sent were not within the borders of the future state project. Thus,
Armenians were to be excluded from this project [the future state].
Kurds were within the project. For instance, Talat Pasha opposed the
idea of resettling Kurds in Aleppo area. He wanted them to be resettled
in regions that are within the borders to today's Turkey because the
number of Muslims was limited. Thus, it is the optimum use of existing
resources.
Q: You are using engineering language.
F. Dündar: The language of the documents is quite cold and distanced.
The author of these telegrams, Talat Pasha, was a lawyer, a very smart
person, who spoke foreign languages. He differentiated between the
language of the cipher telegrams and the language used in diplomacy. He
was a real "statesman-diplomat."
Q: You wrote in your book that the aim of the state was to "mix" and
then to "unify and melt." If these do not work then to "cleanse." Who
were the ones who were mixed and who were the ones who were "cleansed"?
F. Dündar: Kurds were mixed. Even if we disregard the politics of
violence, including converts, seized and adopted children, 40 percent of
Armenians survived. Only one-third of Armenians remained. "Cleansing"
does not mean annihilating all. There were Armenians who remained but
were disconnected from their land.
There was a rule of 5 percent for instance. In comparison with the
Muslim population, Armenians were not to exceed 5 percent. Even this had
some preconditions. For instance, if a family had a son over 15, he
would be counted as a second family. Then you had some loyal Armenians,
police, soldier, etc.
Q: Were Armenians taken to the army from deportation?
F. Dündar: Yes. In 1916 or 1917 in Der Zor, Armenians were taken to the
army.
Q: What is the source of this information?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams.
Q: Did they obey the order?
F. Dündar: I do not know. But the order exists. Of course they were to
be taken without any weapon handed to them, in what was called a
"hard-labor battalion" (amele taburu).
Q: You are saying that the CUP conducted deportations and the
resettlement project with great care. With which organizations on the
ground did they conduct this?
F. Dündar: This is the state. The state has population records. It has a
statistical agency as well. Each institution has its own statistical
department. In 1915 there were maps based on the "millet system." Still,
there were officers who were not working according to the CUP's
mentality. They were dismissed.
Was there any attempt to persuade the officers in order to create an
intellectual or ideological organization in these telegrams?
Telegrams convey orders. But for instance in one of Talat Pasha's
telegrams, you can see a sentence written for persuading the recipient.
He says, "By now all the Ottoman territories are a battleground." Of
course, 100-percent fulfillment of orders is impossible. Local
authorities may differ in the initiatives they take.
Q: You have said that population changes were tracked every three
months. Are there records referring to this? Are we talking about such a
well-organized structure?
F. Dündar: Yes. The number of births and the number of deaths were
added. Population movements were followed and reported to the center
every three months.
Q: You have said that the CUP succeeded in resolving many of the
problems that could have created trouble for the future nation-state.
Looking back, can you say the CUP resolved these problems?
F. Dündar: The CUP left a very "adequate" population composition to
Mustafa Kemal.
Q: What do you mean by "adequate"? There is no homogenous society, right?
F. Dündar: Well, at least we can say that compared to the time before
the CUP, a more harmonious population composition was created. Probable
Kurdish and Greek demands were halted. Of course, Armenians got the
worst of it.
Q: You assume that Mustafa Kemal would have chosen to build a totally
homogenous nation state. Do you not think there might have been other
options?
F. Dündar: There is continuity in mentality. It is possible to trace
back the mentality of assimilating Kurds in order to build a new state
to the CUP period. [The Pan-Turkist ideologue] Ziya Gökalp not only
proposed the assimilation of Kurds but also proposed projects to realize
this. He prepared a survey questionnaire in 1914, with more than 60
questions. Criminal data were collected in this questionnaire. Whether
there are ethnic divisions within the clans, or different divisions of
language, weakness of the leaders, etc.
Q: Where was it published?
F. Dündar: It is a questionnaire sent to regional authorities by the CUP
government, I mean regions in which Kurds were living. It is in the
Ottoman archives. It is going to be published.
Q: In the "Armenian Conference" in Istanbul, at Bilgi University in
2005, you said, "deportation is not a holistic and premeditated
project." Now you are saying "deportation is a conscious decision, the
consequences of which could have been known in advance." These are two
different sentences. Could you please explain?
F. Dündar: If I am not mistaken, I said, there was no policy to
annihilate all Armenians. And I still defend this argument. But of
course the partial decrease in the Armenian population was due to the
CUP's population policies. Moreover, at that time I said I had not yet
studied the Armenian case. After having studied Armenians, one can see
that Der Zor was very well known to the state. There are statements of
authorities in Der Zor. Further, in 1912, a report had been prepared for
the government by experts. The report says, "No immigrant could be
settled in that area." Sixty percent of the population in Der Zor
consisted of nomadic groups. The state knew Der Zor very well. This
proves that even a decision only to deport is a conscious decision. The
results are not invisible. Thus, it can be said that the Armenian
deportation was a crime against humanity.
Q: What are the living conditions in Der Zor?
F. Dündar: Der Zor is a desert. Even, once upon a time, it was called
"Province of the desert" on the maps. Further, on July 6, 1914, there
was a discussion in the parliament. A Greek member of parliament asked
why the immigrants expelled from the Balkans were resettled in Greek
villages. He said, "Almost all the country is empty. What is the reason
for this resettlement?" Talat Pasha responded, "Yes, there are lots of
empty places. Yet, had those Muslims resettled in desert areas, they
would have all died."
So, the conditions were known. But only 10 months later, Armenians were
sent there.
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg185510.html
Fuat Dündar: 1915 was part of a "systematic ethnic engineering" project
by Talin Suciyan
ISTANBUL - Speaking in Istanbul in March, historian Fuat Dündar argued
that the Armenian "deportations" of 1915 were part of a "systematic ethnic
engineering" project undertaken by the Ottoman government, which was
controlled by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) at the time.
Mr. Dündar, who received his Ph.D. from the prestigious École des Hautes
Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris, has studied the cipher
telegrams written by members of the CUP government and tracked the
ethnic and demographic changes in Anatolia between 1913 and 1918. For
his master's degree, he had focused mainly on the displacement of Muslim
populations, publishing a book titled Ittihat ve Terakki'nin
Müslümanlari Iskan Politikasi (The CUP's settlement policy for Muslims).
He is also the author of Türkiye Nüfus Sayimlarinda Azinliklar
(Minorities in Turkey's censuses).
At the "Armenian conference" held in 2005 at Istanbul's Bilgi
University, Mr. Dündar presented some of his findings. "Deportation is
not a holistic and premeditated project," he concluded at the time. But
now, speaking before a group of about 60 activists, academics, and
journalist at Tarih ve Toplum Bilimleri Enstitusu (History and Social
Sciences Institute), Mr. Dündar declares, "deportation is a conscious
decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance."
What follows is a conversation between this correspondent and Fuat
Dündar, which also appeared in Turkish in Agos.
Q: You wrote your Ph.D. thesis on settlement policies during the CUP
period between 1913 and 1918. Are you talking about a systematic
settling policy covering all those who were not ethnic Turks?
F. Dündar: Actually Turks were also resettled in order to obtain a
predominance or majority of Turkish identity. We can say that ethnic
engineering was conducted. The Turks' duty was to turkify. In the
framework of this engineering, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Albanians,
Georgians, Circassians, Laz people, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Nasturies,
and Bulgarians were displaced.
Q: Was this systematic?
F. Dündar: Yes, both systematic and chronologically continuous. In 1913,
the policy targeted Bulgarians. At that time, the territories that now
belong to Greece belonged to Bulgarians. The Bulgarian army was powerful
and that posed a threat to Istanbul. So 50,000 Bulgarians were displaced
and sent to Bulgaria, and 50,000 Turks from Bulgaria came and settled in
their place. Then came the turn of Greeks. [The CUP leader] Halil
Mentese confessed this chronologic continuity. He said, "After
Bulgarians now it's the Greeks' turn."
On October 22, 1914, the policy of expelling Greeks was halted because
two days earlier a deal was made with Germany in which there was also
financial aid. Therefore, for the sake of the state's stability, the
attacks against Greeks were stopped. Greeks were displaced inland from
the shores and the borders to be used as a tool to threaten [Greece] in
the future.
Toward the end of 1914, we can see the displaced [Muslim] people in
Zeitun. While Armenians were sent away, displaced Muslims were settled
in their places. The purpose of this population exchange was to create a
safe homeland. In 1915 Armenians were expelled from the region. Then, in
1916, the policy start targeting Kurds. New "replacement" commissions
were gathered. During the same period Kurds fleed from Russia.
Q: Why?
F. Dündar: Because they were pro-Ottoman Kurds. Russians too wanted to
expel and get rid of Kurds. But not by killing them. In 1917, in
Palestine, Jews become the target [of the CUP]. All these steps were
parts of the CUP's project. Thus, the systematic character is obvious.
Q: How many people were displaced?
F. Dündar: As you know, [the columnist] Murat Bardakçi has publicized
parts of the "notebook of Talat Pasha" after keeping it to himself for
20 years. He does not even say the dates when the notebook was written.
Had Bardakçi acknowledged this notebook 20 years ago, we would have
progressed much further in our research. In my opinion the notebook was
written by the end of 1915. Only according to Talat Pasha's notebook, 80
percent of 1.5 million Armenians were deported. Muslims who escaped from
Russian army come to around 1.2 million people, of whom around a million
are Kurds and 200,000, Turks. Turks were made to resettle in the regions
in which Armenians had been living. Kurds were scattered in
Turkish-populated areas. Tens of thousands of Assyrians, Nasturis,
Circassians, and Arabs too. At that time the population of Anatolia was
around 12 million. One-third of this population was displaced and
resettled.
Q: What are your sources?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams. They are the operational documents -
executive orders - of the CUP government. They are not decisions taken
in various congresses. Cipher telegrams are operational documents.
Q: What is a cipher telegram?
F. Dündar: These are telegrams written in code by special telegraph
officers and can be decoded only by those who have the key. Codes were
changed about every three months.
We can read them because Talat Pasha wrote them in a regular way and
they were coded by the telegraph officer. These documents are in the
Ottoman archives. Anyone able to read Ottoman can go and read them.
However, this does not mean that the cipher telegrams are archived
fully. The archives are open, but this does not mean that one can find
all of the telegrams there.
The fact that ethnic engineering was done through telegrams makes the
whole story even more meaningful. Over the course of five years, the
whole population structure changed in a certain geographic area. There
is no other instance of this.
Q: How were the geographic borders defined?
F. Dündar: The CUP's target was Anatolia [defined in modern Turkish as
all of Asia Minor]. According to me, the regions to which Armenians were
sent were not within the borders of the future state project. Thus,
Armenians were to be excluded from this project [the future state].
Kurds were within the project. For instance, Talat Pasha opposed the
idea of resettling Kurds in Aleppo area. He wanted them to be resettled
in regions that are within the borders to today's Turkey because the
number of Muslims was limited. Thus, it is the optimum use of existing
resources.
Q: You are using engineering language.
F. Dündar: The language of the documents is quite cold and distanced.
The author of these telegrams, Talat Pasha, was a lawyer, a very smart
person, who spoke foreign languages. He differentiated between the
language of the cipher telegrams and the language used in diplomacy. He
was a real "statesman-diplomat."
Q: You wrote in your book that the aim of the state was to "mix" and
then to "unify and melt." If these do not work then to "cleanse." Who
were the ones who were mixed and who were the ones who were "cleansed"?
F. Dündar: Kurds were mixed. Even if we disregard the politics of
violence, including converts, seized and adopted children, 40 percent of
Armenians survived. Only one-third of Armenians remained. "Cleansing"
does not mean annihilating all. There were Armenians who remained but
were disconnected from their land.
There was a rule of 5 percent for instance. In comparison with the
Muslim population, Armenians were not to exceed 5 percent. Even this had
some preconditions. For instance, if a family had a son over 15, he
would be counted as a second family. Then you had some loyal Armenians,
police, soldier, etc.
Q: Were Armenians taken to the army from deportation?
F. Dündar: Yes. In 1916 or 1917 in Der Zor, Armenians were taken to the
army.
Q: What is the source of this information?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams.
Q: Did they obey the order?
F. Dündar: I do not know. But the order exists. Of course they were to
be taken without any weapon handed to them, in what was called a
"hard-labor battalion" (amele taburu).
Q: You are saying that the CUP conducted deportations and the
resettlement project with great care. With which organizations on the
ground did they conduct this?
F. Dündar: This is the state. The state has population records. It has a
statistical agency as well. Each institution has its own statistical
department. In 1915 there were maps based on the "millet system." Still,
there were officers who were not working according to the CUP's
mentality. They were dismissed.
Was there any attempt to persuade the officers in order to create an
intellectual or ideological organization in these telegrams?
Telegrams convey orders. But for instance in one of Talat Pasha's
telegrams, you can see a sentence written for persuading the recipient.
He says, "By now all the Ottoman territories are a battleground." Of
course, 100-percent fulfillment of orders is impossible. Local
authorities may differ in the initiatives they take.
Q: You have said that population changes were tracked every three
months. Are there records referring to this? Are we talking about such a
well-organized structure?
F. Dündar: Yes. The number of births and the number of deaths were
added. Population movements were followed and reported to the center
every three months.
Q: You have said that the CUP succeeded in resolving many of the
problems that could have created trouble for the future nation-state.
Looking back, can you say the CUP resolved these problems?
F. Dündar: The CUP left a very "adequate" population composition to
Mustafa Kemal.
Q: What do you mean by "adequate"? There is no homogenous society, right?
F. Dündar: Well, at least we can say that compared to the time before
the CUP, a more harmonious population composition was created. Probable
Kurdish and Greek demands were halted. Of course, Armenians got the
worst of it.
Q: You assume that Mustafa Kemal would have chosen to build a totally
homogenous nation state. Do you not think there might have been other
options?
F. Dündar: There is continuity in mentality. It is possible to trace
back the mentality of assimilating Kurds in order to build a new state
to the CUP period. [The Pan-Turkist ideologue] Ziya Gökalp not only
proposed the assimilation of Kurds but also proposed projects to realize
this. He prepared a survey questionnaire in 1914, with more than 60
questions. Criminal data were collected in this questionnaire. Whether
there are ethnic divisions within the clans, or different divisions of
language, weakness of the leaders, etc.
Q: Where was it published?
F. Dündar: It is a questionnaire sent to regional authorities by the CUP
government, I mean regions in which Kurds were living. It is in the
Ottoman archives. It is going to be published.
Q: In the "Armenian Conference" in Istanbul, at Bilgi University in
2005, you said, "deportation is not a holistic and premeditated
project." Now you are saying "deportation is a conscious decision, the
consequences of which could have been known in advance." These are two
different sentences. Could you please explain?
F. Dündar: If I am not mistaken, I said, there was no policy to
annihilate all Armenians. And I still defend this argument. But of
course the partial decrease in the Armenian population was due to the
CUP's population policies. Moreover, at that time I said I had not yet
studied the Armenian case. After having studied Armenians, one can see
that Der Zor was very well known to the state. There are statements of
authorities in Der Zor. Further, in 1912, a report had been prepared for
the government by experts. The report says, "No immigrant could be
settled in that area." Sixty percent of the population in Der Zor
consisted of nomadic groups. The state knew Der Zor very well. This
proves that even a decision only to deport is a conscious decision. The
results are not invisible. Thus, it can be said that the Armenian
deportation was a crime against humanity.
Q: What are the living conditions in Der Zor?
F. Dündar: Der Zor is a desert. Even, once upon a time, it was called
"Province of the desert" on the maps. Further, on July 6, 1914, there
was a discussion in the parliament. A Greek member of parliament asked
why the immigrants expelled from the Balkans were resettled in Greek
villages. He said, "Almost all the country is empty. What is the reason
for this resettlement?" Talat Pasha responded, "Yes, there are lots of
empty places. Yet, had those Muslims resettled in desert areas, they
would have all died."
So, the conditions were known. But only 10 months later, Armenians were
sent there.
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