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new picture about armenian genocide

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  • #11
    Re: new picture about armenian genocide

    Look, as hard as it is to write this as an Armenian, we often get too emotional about the Genocide ( I often do as well) when it comes to arguing the case (which we shouldn't have to but unfortunately is the reality of the world we live in). We're easily suckered in to making harsh statements and it is true that we test each others veracity and question each others patriotism, ethnic origins and so forth. We start to attack each other and I'm afraid that Ara Baliozian is often correct in this regard. In that sense, we are no different than the Turks at times. The only difference is that their bellicosity seems to stem from general malevolence and ours stems from being the aggrieved party with no justice in sight. Not too many non-Armenians can or will understand and not that many will ever really care (unless they have suffered the same fate). That is simply a fact of life

    But Bell is correct even if his remarks can see flippant. Much of Armenian resource cataloging is often hastily done and sloppy and sorry to say, very Oriental. The proof is there, we have it, its just not often written about well or displayed correctly. The Turks have basically conjured their arguments from thin air (or at the very least, inventing a history of what the wish had transpired to make themselves feel better but does not correspond with reality) and Armenian, although they are the truthful party, argue with anger instead of calm rationality---its hard not to, which is difficult task.

    It is f***ing ludicrous and insulting that we should have to be so meticulous, as if we are stating our case for the prosecution in court...everyday. And yes, Bell is very caustic when making comments which only frustrates many of you even more and I do sense that he does this to get a rise. At the same time, if any of you have ever seen his postings over the years, you will know he is not a genocide denialist but in fact a very valuable member here. There are very few non-Armenians that have such a profound knowledge of Armenian history.

    Sometimes perhaps depending on mood, age, general disposition, frame of reference, provocation, English proficiency, cultural background etc., we forget how to be polite to each other. I would ask that we give it a try.

    We can all learn from each other and instead of jumping down each others throats or calling each other names, how about asking for clarity and showing each other some respect?

    Thanks everyone.
    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

    Comment


    • #12
      Re: new picture about armenian genocide

      Originally posted by Joseph View Post
      Much of Armenian resource cataloging is often hastily done and sloppy and sorry to say, very Oriental. The proof is there, we have it, its just not often written about well or displayed correctly.
      I see this as oxygen to the Turkish fire.

      My gut instinct is that this characterization does not apply universally since genocide research is not centralized.

      Research is done parallel and independent also by Armenians and non Armenians.

      However there may be among Armenian academics sloppy researchers and "reproducers" .

      The way to deal with any academic work which does not meet accepted standards is by criticism and publicity (naming and shaming) ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS.

      Not by painting every Armenian researcher with the same brush.
      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

      Comment


      • #13
        Re: new picture about armenian genocide

        Originally posted by londontsi View Post
        Not by painting every Armenian researcher with the same brush.
        You have a point here, but people do like to generalize, especially when some of these individuals of questionable ability to debate with credible sources, are much more vocal... the temptation to generalize is even stronger when just a few such persons band together, or make their reputation known to a single observer who cannot help but project a stereotype onto the population at large.

        There's a shared responsibility between both sides for the birth of a stereotype.
        Last edited by jgk3; 08-15-2010, 07:14 PM.

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        • #14
          Re: new picture about armenian genocide

          Originally posted by londontsi View Post
          I see this as oxygen to the Turkish fire.

          My gut instinct is that this characterization does not apply universally since genocide research is not centralized.

          Research is done parallel and independent also by Armenians and non Armenians.

          However there may be among Armenian academics sloppy researchers and "reproducers" .

          The way to deal with any academic work which does not meet accepted standards is by criticism and publicity (naming and shaming) ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS.

          Not by painting every Armenian researcher with the same brush.
          The very organisation that you cited in another thread as an exemplar ("There is tons and tons of documentary and legal evidence. To start with haven't you heard of the Armenian Genocide Museum in Armenia") is guilty of presenting staged photographs as genuine Armenian Genocide images.

          If they are what you consider to be the best, how bad are the worst?

          They all give oxygen to that "Turkish fire". In fact, they almost single-handedly sustain it! Turkish money and self-interest provides the fuel, but no fire can burn without oxygen. For example, the majority of Turkish denialist publications have, at their core, the genuine exposure and discrediting of a falsehood, exaggeration, over-simplification, or slight-of-hand of some sort (such as non-existant Hitler "quotes", dubious Andonian telegrams, exaggerated population figures, forged letters or, in this case, fake photographs and false captions). Then on top of (and because of) that genuine foundation, Turkey can erect its own propaganda that is full of even greater and far more malicious falsehoods, exaggerations, over-simplifications, and slight-of-hands.

          I believe that academics (the vast majority of which are Armenian) continue to produce these amateurish errors because they do not treat the subject seriously - they treat it like the masses want it to be treated. Your tag says "Great politicians persue the National interest". You should read what Hovhannes Katchaznouni wrote about Armenian politicians and leaders - the same failings seem to be present in many Armenian researchers.
          Last edited by bell-the-cat; 08-15-2010, 11:07 PM.
          Plenipotentiary meow!

          Comment


          • #15
            Re: new picture about armenian genocide

            Originally posted by londontsi View Post
            I see this as oxygen to the Turkish fire.

            My gut instinct is that this characterization does not apply universally since genocide research is not centralized.

            Research is done parallel and independent also by Armenians and non Armenians.

            However there may be among Armenian academics sloppy researchers and "reproducers" .

            The way to deal with any academic work which does not meet accepted standards is by criticism and publicity (naming and shaming) ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS.

            Not by painting every Armenian researcher with the same brush.
            Good point.
            General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

            Comment


            • #16
              Re: new picture about armenian genocide

              Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
              The very organisation that you cited in another thread as an exemplar ("There is tons and tons of documentary and legal evidence. To start with haven't you heard of the Armenian Genocide Museum in Armenia") is guilty of presenting staged photographs as genuine Armenian Genocide images.

              If they are what you consider to be the best, how bad are the worst?

              They all give oxygen to that "Turkish fire". In fact, they almost single-handedly sustain it! Turkish money and self-interest provides the fuel, but no fire can burn without oxygen. For example, the majority of Turkish denialist publications have, at their core, the genuine exposure and discrediting of a falsehood, exaggeration, over-simplification, or slight-of-hand of some sort (such as non-existant Hitler "quotes", dubious Andonian telegrams, exaggerated population figures, forged letters or, in this case, fake photographs and false captions). Then on top of (and because of) that genuine foundation, Turkey can erect its own propaganda that is full of even greater and far more malicious falsehoods, exaggerations, over-simplifications, and slight-of-hands.

              I believe that academics (the vast majority of which are Armenian) continue to produce these amateurish errors because they do not treat the subject seriously - they treat it like the masses want it to be treated. Your tag says "Great politicians persue the National interest". You should read what Hovhannes Katchaznouni wrote about Armenian politicians and leaders - the same failings seem to be present in many Armenian researchers.


              I did not suggest Armenian researchers were perfect. Indeed I allowed for the possibility of being otherwise. I am not an genocide scholar.

              I did not criticize the messenger. I criticized the message. The formulation of the message if you will.

              I also put forward an approach, an idea to challenging those who you suggest exit, be it individuals or institutions.

              Proper research always has references.

              Now, the onus is on those be it genocide deniers or good intentioned critics to challenge the presented evidence of the researchers, citing the source and who it is attributed to.

              What I do not have in mind is "reproducers" , propagandists, amateurish debaters, pathetic websites etc.
              Most of your criticism consciously or unconsciously is resourced from and directed to this category of "material".

              If this assertion is incorrect then then apply the proper method of challenging research material.

              .
              .
              .
              Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
              Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
              Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

              Comment


              • #17
                Re: new picture about armenian genocide

                Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                My advice to everyone: never trust anything an Armenian says about the Armenian Genocide, and only a fool stakes their reputation on evidence provided by Armenians.
                Apart from offical sources, such as military/intellgence dispatches and photographic evidence. Very few documents or even eyewitness accounts surrounding the AG would hardly stand up as admissible evidence in a court. Which I would assume has to be the benchmark.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Re: new picture about armenian genocide

                  Originally posted by retro View Post
                  Apart from offical sources, such as military/intellgence dispatches and photographic evidence. Very few documents or even eyewitness accounts surrounding the AG would hardly stand up as admissible evidence in a court. Which I would assume has to be the benchmark.
                  Things don't need to get that restrictive for there to be an improvement.
                  The benchmark is currently set so low that it is even below the level required to exclude obvious falsehoods.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Re: new picture about armenian genocide

                    Originally posted by retro View Post
                    Apart from offical sources, such as military/intellgence dispatches and photographic evidence. Very few documents or even eyewitness accounts surrounding the AG would hardly stand up as admissible evidence in a court.

                    AG well established fact.

                    Nobody is trying to bring this issue to the courts.

                    There is no suggestion even from the Turks for this to be decided by the courts.

                    Turkey's position is that its a historical issue and only details need to be "clarified" for history textbooks.

                    Armenia's position is that its a political issue with a political solution.
                    Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
                    Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
                    Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Re: new picture about armenian genocide

                      Originally posted by londontsi View Post
                      I also put forward an approach, an idea to challenging those who you suggest exit, be it individuals or institutions.

                      Proper research always has references.

                      Now, the onus is on those be it genocide deniers or good intentioned critics to challenge the presented evidence of the researchers, citing the source and who it is attributed to.

                      What I do not have in mind is "reproducers" , propagandists, amateurish debaters, pathetic websites etc.
                      Most of your criticism consciously or unconsciously is resourced from and directed to this category of "material".

                      If this assertion is incorrect then then apply the proper method of challenging research material.
                      Is your "Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute" one of those "pathetic websites"? No, it is not - but it has all the same lack of concern for facts and truth that are typical of just about EVERY Armenian source.

                      Here is the Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute website with the faked photograph (along with several other fake photos from the same series) that is given the false caption "Turk official teasing Armenian starved children by showing bread, 1915"


                      Here is a long article about the faked photograph:
                      The Saga Surrounding a Forged Photograph from the Era of the Armenian Genocide


                      This obviously fake photo has been circulating for decades, with Armenians claiming it to be genuine. I also wouldn't expect the average neanderthal who roams this forum to be interested in truth - they will contine to lie, regardless of what the facts say. However, I would expect those at the Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute to be interested in the truth. So why is this photo still being presented on their website as a genuine depiction of the Armenian Genocide?
                      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 10-29-2010, 01:44 PM.
                      Plenipotentiary meow!

                      Comment

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