Oscar Peterson

[dusken]

Duke and Coltrane doing "In a Sentimental Mood" is, for me, the most romantic performance ever.

I tend to not compare jazz musicians for a reason similar to what ardenik's spill suggested. The jazz musicians and composers we talk about all contributed something unique to the scene. Is Oscar Peterson better than Ahmad Jamal? No. They are different. Is the Duke better than the Count? No. They are just different. I view it this way across the board with all of the musicians and composers. Buddy Rich could have ripped up the kit more than Max Roach but they were equally influential.

[anileve]

Originally posted by dusken Duke and Coltrane doing "In a Sentimental Mood" is, for me, the most romantic performance ever.

I tend to not compare jazz musicians for a reason similar to what ardenik's spill suggested. The jazz musicians and composers we talk about all contributed something unique to the scene. Is Oscar Peterson better than Ahmad Jamal? No. They are different. Is the Duke better than the Count? No. They are just different. I view it this way across the board with all of the musicians and composers. Buddy Rich could have ripped up the kit more than Max Roach but they were equally influential.

I don't believe I used the word "better", although I do recall using the word "prefer", which simply implies my "preference". I would PREFER listening to Charlie Parker over Chick Corea and Thelonius Monk over Herbie Hanc0ck. Eventhough each addresses a different "style" I still have my preference in terms of how often I listen to them and which one stirs my emotions more effectively.

[dusken]

Originally posted by anileve I don't believe I used the word "better", although I do recall using the word "prefer", which simply implies my "preference". I would PREFER listening to Charlie Parker over Chick Corea and Thelonius Monk over Herbie Hanc0ck. Eventhough each addresses a different "style" I still have my preference in terms of how often I listen to them and which one stirs my emotions more effectively.

I understand and was not necessarily addressing what you said. I have preferences as well.

The problem with the comparisons you made above is that they are not the same style of music. Corea and Hanc0ck play[ed] mostly fusion jazz where Parker and Monk were bop. In any case, I would prefer to listen to bop over fusion. But you should check out Corea's Acoustic Band with Weckl and Pattitucci. And you should check out Herbie's Quintet album called V.S.O.P., which is not fusion.

[anileve]

Originally posted by dusken
The problem with the comparisons you made above is that they are not the same style of music. Corea and Hanc0ck play[ed] mostly fusion jazz where Parker and Monk were bop. In any case, I would prefer to listen to bop over fusion. But you should check out Corea's Acoustic Band with Weckl and Pattitucci. And you should check out Herbie's Quintet album called V.S.O.P., which is not fusion.

Dusken, would you care to step out of your bleakness for a moment and actually pay close attention to my posts? Just for you I shall repost “Eventhough each addresses a different "style" I still have my preference in terms of how often I listen to them and which one stirs my emotions more effectively.” See I mentioned style and I also mentioned that they have different ones. Where do you see a problem there, besides the obvious fact that you seek something to disagree with me on. What’s the matter, you wish to attract more attention from me than you already do? You must be a devoted masochist.

In terms of Chick Corea, I highly enjoy his "Spain" piece, however most of his work doesn't really intice me. I'll make sure to look into Weckl and Patti and Herbie. I am not really a huge fan of dissonance, but some of it is quite interesting and like you I prefer bop with mild to heavy improvisation, fusion doesn't really move me as much.

[dusken]

Originally posted by anileve Dusken, would you care to step out of your bleakness for a moment and actually pay close attention to my posts? Just for you I shall repost “Eventhough each addresses a different "style" I still have my preference in terms of how often I listen to them and which one stirs my emotions more effectively.” See I mentioned style and I also mentioned that they have different ones. Where do you see a problem there, besides the obvious fact that you seek something to disagree with me on. What’s the matter, you wish to attract more attention from me than you already do? You must be a devoted masochist.

For Hell's sake; I am sorry. Bleakness? There is no bleakness. You and everyone else assigns a tone to my posts that is not there. And get over yourself already. Also, yes, I am a masochist in addition to being a sadist.

Originally posted by anileve In terms of Chick Corea, I highly enjoy his "Spain" piece, however most of his work doesn't really intice me. I'll make sure to look into Weckl and Patti and Herbie. I am not really a huge fan of dissonance, but some of it is quite interesting and like you I prefer bop with mild to heavy improvisation, fusion doesn't really move me as much.

Weckl and Pattitucci are musicians that played with Corea. Listen to a CD of the trio playing accoustically. It is good stuff.

Herbie Hanc0ck's VSOP album is real great.

Regarding dissonance: I think is is funny you should say that since it is so prevalent in jazz. Miles Davis played chromatic scales going in and out of key all the time. Duke Ellington would do these walk-downs where, for example, a D natural and a D sharp would be played simultaneously. The list goes on. I think it plays a big role in making jazz interesting.

[ardenik]

first of all thank you anileve for the warm welcome up to this post, i had replied to 3 or 4 other threads & every one of them just STOPPED being replied to as soon as i posted something!! lol probably just coincidence, but funny all the same

CHICK COREA:

chick corea's akoustic band album might not be the best introduction to chick's acoustic music. if i had to give my personal opinion on the akoustic band album, i dont like it so so so much.. i LOVE chick corea... i transcribed his solo on "Spain" & had to play it along with the CD for an audition last year. but i must say akoustic band is not among my personal favorite works by chick corea. it just sounds too "GRP" for my taste, but thats just my opinion.

what i would recommend by chick, on the other hand, for part-time jazz fans and jazz connaisseurs alike, is his album "My Spanish Heart". its a sweet balance between his acoustic capabilities (acoustic piano, live string instruments, brass section, etc. featuring legendary jazz violinist Jean-Luc Ponty) combined with hints of the more electric instruments like in albums such as "Light as a Feather" & "The Leprechaun" (Fender Rhodes, Mini-Moog synth, Arp Odyssey etc.) this album features the original version of the famous tune "Armando's Rhumba" which on this album is played only by Chick on piano, Ponty (violin), the mind-boggling Stanley Clarke (dbl bass) and hand claps & foot stomps by Chick & Narada Michael Walden. AMAZING tune. AMAZING album. highly recommended (by me, anyway)

You want to hear Chick ripping it up in a totally acoustic setting? check out the album "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs". First time i heard this album, i knew chick only thru 'light as a feather' and 'my spanish heart' & so when my buddy made me hear "now he sings..." at first i thought it was Herbie. its a great album. features the very well known tune "Windows" which is absolutely marvelous.

HERBIE HANC0CK:

since his first album as a leader "Takin' Off" (1962) until today, Herbie has covered so many different styles of music, i think one of the only ppl who have done this more than him was miles davis.

so what do i recommend? start at the beginning!! "Takin' Off" is one of my favorite albums of all time. i cant even imagine what it was like to hear this for the first time in 1962... a young Herbie Hanc0ck (22yrs, before his stint in the Miles Davis Quintet which made him most famous) & a young Freddie Hubbard (24yrs)..... two prodigious musicians who would play fundamental roles in the direction music was to take in the next decade.... also featuring one of the giants of the tenor sax, Dexter Gordon. who was already a huge name when this album was recorded (he was 41) There is some really GREAT playing on this album, & i would recommend it to anybody, as it is very accessible to even a jazz-layman audience. or also for those who arent into the heavy dissonance

you like funk? & the sound of bass so FAT it interrupts ur heartrate? check out the Herbie albums: "Headhunters" (1973) and "Thrust" (1974).... very funky, very black, very awesome. I could say without a doubt that these 2 albums had a lot to do with the later emergence of both hip-hop AND electronic music.... check out these albums, they're awesome!!!!!

LATER! :P

arden

[dusken]

Personally, I would introduce someone to Herbie with the Miles stuff over the pre-Miles stuff because it was more mature, in my opinion. Headhunters is great.

[anileve]

Originally posted by ardenik first of all thank you anileve for the warm welcome up to this post, i had replied to 3 or 4 other threads & every one of them just STOPPED being replied to as soon as i posted something!! lol probably just coincidence, but funny all the same

Ardenik, are you kidding? You've hit my soft spot, I grew up on Jazz. 90% of the time, Jazz was the only music heard in our household. I've dreamed of playing sax, took up piano instead, but had no patience since I've wanted to play the Moonlight Sonata from the start. Instead I had to play childish songs which I had no interest in, so that was the end of my piano career.

I am glad we have at least 2 lovers of jazz here. And I would guess you are a musician, Andranik. Which instrument do you play?

Dusk, dissonance is actually more prevalent of fusion. Bop has more of an agreeable combination of sounds, harmony is the main key no matter the improv, both can coexist rather beautifully. Chaotic movements lacking coherent play is not my forte, one of the reasons I don't like xxxxxes Brew. His earlier stuff is magnificent though, and "My Funny Valentine" from his "Cookin'..." album is soooo HOT! I think I am known in NY for requesting that piece, and I've heard some awesome performances and some really xxxxty ones.

I am more of a Cannonball Adderly “Dancing in the Dark” person. I prefer more of a sexy and luscious groove with a touch of complexity. Improvisation is a very sensitive subject, if not mastered well it might turn into irritating noise.

By the way, probably the most amazing place to listen to Jazz live is “Smalls”, the place is very simple and small (hence the name) and every note travels through your body as it vibrates through the walls of the congested room. There is no pretentiousness, just love for jazz from the audience and jazz musicians. Watching them, you just know they are experiencing one of their orgasmic moments.

[ardenik]

ding ding ding ding!!! yes i am a musician i am a piano player. studying jazz à l'université de montréal

dissonance is a touchy subject.... & its hard to evaluate dissonance by style. ur example of Bit.ches Brew is a good one for building the case of fusion being more "dissonant", but consider a comparison between a lot of John Scofield stuff and, say, Bud Powell's "Un Poco Loco", which is pure bop, and full of dissonance... Scofield is fusion, but a lot more chilled out than Bit.ches Brew...... less "dissonant" if u will.....

The whole esthetic of bebop is founded on the idea of dissonance, so to sever bebop from its fundamental aspect would be like taking the distortion out of james hetfield's guitar. There is no jazz without dissonance.. in fact there is no music without dissonance. On an elemental level, music is the alternation of tension (dissonance) and release (resolution). This has been the binding force of music for over a thousand years, as long as there has been polyphony in music, there has been dissonance. Ever since more or less the 9th century with the emergence of a practice of polyphonic singing called "Organum" in the churches of Europe (polyphony = more than one note at a time)

im sorry im going off on these tangents here, but just to say that "dissonant" would probably not be the best word to define the chaotic element in music like Bit.ches Brew. Its more like.... avant-garde.. playing "outside" of the harmony.. its hard to put a word on it, but what it comes down to is a lack of resolution in the traditional sense of the word. Taking away from voice-leading and harmony in favor of impulse and expressive freedom.

Improvisation is immediate and reactive expression. And just because it sounds like chaotic noise, doesn't mean we can say the musician has not mastered it enough. Take the example of John Coltrane, the Messiah of jazz. This dude could PLAY on chord changes... we know that because we heard him play with miles' earlier quintet. he's got a lot of credibility, having written & recorded Giant Steps (1959) which was a tune (and an album) which epitomized bop in its most intense form. it was like an oversaturation of bop elements, like bop on steroids!! & then (the same year, in fact) he participated in the recording of miles' Kind of Blue... which was the total opposite of Giant Steps... no more crazy fast chord changes, no more tonality, no more dominant harmony..... just a couple of modal scales.. & melodies, totally improvised. & fcukin BEAUTIFUL ones at that.... so when coltrane went on to make albums like "A Love Supreme" or his even later, freer stuff, with pretty "chaotic" and "noisy" solos.. with screeches and screams, and playing with upper harmonic overtones on the sax, 2 notes at a time, which nobody had really done before on a horn (at least not on purpose!! lol) could u say it's because he hasnt mastered improvisation? ..... not at all!! right? one of the reasons is because coltrane ALSO played on "Cookin' with the Miles Davis Quintet"... & did a fantastic job on that album, in that style. its really a question of hearing the underlying ideas in that chaotic music, being in the right frame of mind, being in the right place, spiritually. because we cant say about any of these guys that they havent mastered improvisation... because we've seen them do it in the most beautiful, coherent way imaginable.

arden

[dusken]

Thanks, ardenik.

Originally posted by anileve Ardenik, are you kidding? You've hit my soft spot, I grew up on Jazz. 90% of the time, Jazz was the only music heard in our household. I've dreamed of playing sax, took up piano instead, but had no patience since I've wanted to play the Moonlight Sonata from the start. Instead I had to play childish songs which I had no interest in, so that was the end of my piano career.

I am glad we have at least 2 lovers of jazz here. And I would guess you are a musician, Andranik. Which instrument do you play?

Dusk, dissonance is actually more prevalent of fusion. Bop has more of an agreeable combination of sounds, harmony is the main key no matter the improv, both can coexist rather beautifully. Chaotic movements lacking coherent play is not my forte, one of the reasons I don't like xxxxxes Brew. His earlier stuff is magnificent though, and "My Funny Valentine" from his "Cookin'..." album is soooo HOT! I think I am known in NY for requesting that piece, and I've heard some awesome performances and some really xxxxty ones.

I listen to fusion all the time. It tends to be less harmonically complicated.

And I hope you are not forgetting me in that "I am glad we have at least 2 lovers of jazz here." Plus the poll as 5 votes, I think, so that should make you feel better.