Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

[Anoush]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

These are all valid points, however these simply represent state policies of the said governments. What has our own government done to help out say same European nations, or what does it do today in terms of its state policy? Isn't it even more immoral to call the criminal Turkish government a "courageous partner?" This is from the speech of our own president.

How could you say to help Europeans when we were in most part annihilated from the face of the earth and we ceased to have a nation, any nation. Then after fighting until our last bone we won our little Armenia back and then communism came over us and gulped us in. How could we help any European nation when we needed help ourselves? I don't understand your basic logic here. We were the ones who needed help, NOT THEM!!!!

I don't even want to go into the court decision on the denial of the Armenian Genocide that was done just few days ago. All of this by "our" own government. So what can we expect from foreign governments who are pursuing their own interests. We are to demand morality from them when again "our" own government lacks it?

From what I read and came to understand, our today's government were forced down their throats by the powerful nations to go into alliance with Turkey, BTW; Russia, USA and France. Unfortunately outside sources and governments backed Levon Der Bedrossian to fight against Sargsyan and Sargsyan having rigged his presidency, brought on more troubles, by being pushed by outside powerful governments to accept the protocols or else. That's the unfortunate truth.

Having said all of this. European average citizen has very little to do with the said "foreign policies" and is often against both foreign and domestic policies that are forged by the elites of these nations who are for most part divorced from general public. There is not even one Islamic society that has a minority religious group which in one way or another does not have a second class status. What I say about European freedoms is true as ever, most of us do benefit and enjoy these freedoms whether knowingly or not.

The very same then applies to the majority people in Armenia. Most don't even know what's going on. They don't know that Levon TerPetrossian backed by outside governments pushed Sargsyan to have to rigg through his presidency then only to be accepted again by the so called outside powerful nations, he had to be pushed into alliance with the enemy - Turkey.

The majority of people in Armenia are innocent passerbys.

[Catharsis]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

How could you say to help Europeans when we were in most part annihilated from the face of the earth and we ceased to have a nation, any nation.

I am talking in historic context of our state policy as well as today again, if I reverse the question what has our state policy done for Europe (ever). Has it not also been driven by its own interests which tend to often be just as "politically" driven?

Then after fighting until our last bone we won our little Armenia back and then communism came over us and gulped us in. How could we help any European nation when we needed help ourselves? I don't understand your basic logic here. We were the ones who needed help, NOT THEM!!!!

Once again I am talking about various historic eras not only the 19th and 20th century context. For example, has our government recognized the ongoing genocide in Darfur? If not materially, they can at least morally support the people there. Yet today, just few days ago Armenian court said that it is ok to deny the Armenian Genocide IN ARMENIA. Again this is the "reality" of politics and we are talking about "our government."

From what I read and came to understand, our today's government were forced down their throats by the powerful nations to go into alliance with Turkey, BTW; Russia, USA and France. Unfortunately outside sources and governments backed Levon Der Bedrossian to fight against Sargsyan and Sargsyan having rigged his presidency, brought on more troubles, by being pushed by outside powerful governments to accept the protocols or else. That's the unfortunate truth.

Yes and if we start digging into the political cesspit you can always find a good deal of rot, it is just the nature of the beast. My whole point is we have to separate systems, governments and people and not lump one into another. My whole point here is not to justify the European powers during the Genocide, far from it, my "defense" in this case is with European models of societies where freedom of speech and personal freedoms in relative terms are much greater than in theocratic (including Islamic, Judaic, Christian fundamentalist etc.) societies.

The very same then applies to the majority people in Armenia. Most don't even know what's going on. They don't know that Levon TerPetrossian backed by outside governments pushed Sargsyan to have to rigg through his presidency then only to be accepted again by the so called outside powerful nations, he had to be pushed into alliance with the enemy - Turkey.

The majority of people in Armenia are innocent passerbys.

All of the three presidents that we had weren't first of all elected in Yerevan but anointed from elsewhere. We must increase our people power at the grassroots level so the higher ups do take the potential of Armenian people seriously and act accordingly.

[hipeter924]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

All I can say is, what a stupid law.

[Anoush]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

I am talking in historic context of our state policy as well as today again, if I reverse the question what has our state policy done for Europe (ever). Has it not also been driven by its own interests which tend to often be just as "politically" driven?

When in what era are you talking about? I am speaking from the 17th centuries on. We needed help and Europeans didn't give a darn about us. That we were on the verge to be annihilated and when we were, they still didn't help us one way or the other. They even helped our enemy.

Once again I am talking about various historic eras not only the 19th and 20th century context. For example, has our government recognized the ongoing genocide in Darfur? If not materially, they can at least morally support the people there. Yet today, just few days ago Armenian court said that it is ok to deny the Armenian Genocide IN ARMENIA. Again this is the "reality" of politics and we are talking about "our government."

Darfur just about happened, not in the 19th nor the 20th centuries; but in the 21st century and ANCA supports Darfur as well as some Diasporans, including myself. BTW; I support Darfur too. I am not aware about Armenia's government whether they support it, but Diasporans do.

I am not aware that today's RA said it OK to deny the Armenian Genocide. It was only a week or two ago when Sargsyan and our heads of state said that they know very well that the Armenian Genocide happened. They better.

Yes and if we start digging into the political cesspit you can always find a good deal of rot, it is just the nature of the beast. My whole point is we have to separate systems, governments and people and not lump one into another. My whole point here is not to justify the European powers during the Genocide, far from it, my "defense" in this case is with European models of societies where freedom of speech and personal freedoms in relative terms are much greater than in theocratic (including Islamic, Judaic, Christian fundamentalist etc.) societies.





All of the three presidents that we had weren't first of all elected in Yerevan but anointed from elsewhere. We must increase our people power at the grassroots level so the higher ups do take the potential of Armenian people seriously and act accordingly.

We know that there is a great deal of corruption in the upper levels of RA's government, and we all talked about it in here in the recent past in hope that they start at least minimizing the corruption and start acting democratically so that the people would be in most part in control of their own nation. It is unfortunate that the government are very rich and the people in most part are in the poor houses. What Kirkorian could have done since he wanted to help the country, was to go there himself with his money and see to it that his money was used the right way or at least send his agent instead of himself. That's the only thing a rich man can do in there. NOT send in his money to the government as they gulp it and make it their own, but perhaps give to the people a little bit only, rather than building real estate and making jobs available for the people. That's the sad news, we already know all that unfortunately. A rich man must send his agent or go himself to monitor to who's hands his money is ending up in. Create real estate and jobs for the benefit of the people and NOT to go into the wrong hands; such as the government who are already rich!

[Catharsis]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

When in what era are you talking about? I am speaking from the 17th centuries on. We needed help and Europeans didn't give a darn about us. That we were on the verge to be annihilated and when we were, they still didn't help us one way or the other. They even helped our enemy.

Any period - before and after 17th century. What about all those orphans who were saved by Europeans, who not only set up orphanages but also helped some of these orphans to return to Republic of Armenia.

Darfur just about happened, not in the 19th nor the 20th centuries; but in the 21st century and ANCA supports Darfur as well as some Diasporans, including myself. BTW; I support Darfur too. I am not aware about Armenia's government whether they support it, but Diasporans do.

ANCA is an organization and you are an individual. Your righteousness, like in the case of ordinary Europeans and European organizations differs from their own respective governments. I must stress again, our government has done nothing (they can start with the recognition of Darfur, Rwanda and all the others) in this regard.

I am not aware that today's RA said it OK to deny the Armenian Genocide. It was only a week or two ago when Sargsyan and our heads of state said that they know very well that the Armenian Genocide happened. They better.

ԱՅՍՈՒՀԵՏ ՀԱՅԱՍՏԱՆԻ ՀԱՆՐԱՊԵՏՈՒԹՅՈՒՆՈՒՄ ԿԱՐԵԼԻ Է ՀԱՅՈՑ ՑԵՂԱՍՊԱՆՈՒԹՅՈՒՆԸ ՈՒՐԱՆԱԼ ԵՎ ՄՆԱԼ ԱՆՊԱՏԻԺ

http://www.ardarutyun.org/?p=703#n1

We know that there is a great deal of corruption in the upper levels of RA's government, and we all talked about it in here in the recent past in hope that they start at least minimizing the corruption and start acting democratically so that the people would be in most part in control of their own nation. It is unfortunate that the government are very rich and the people in most part are in the poor houses. What Kirkorian could have done since he wanted to help the country, was to go there himself with his money and see to it that his money was used the right way or at least send his agent instead of himself. That's the only thing a rich man can do in there. NOT send in his money to the government as they gulp it and make it their own, but perhaps give to the people a little bit only, rather than building real estate and making jobs available for the people. That's the sad news, we already know all that unfortunately. A rich man must send his agent or go himself to monitor to who's hands his money is ending up in. Create real estate and jobs for the benefit of the people and NOT to go into the wrong hands; such as the government who are already rich!

Well I believe Kirk Kirkorian's (via Lincy) main representative is Harout Sassounian, he has not personally done that (yet), perhaps he feels he is more effective here.

Although various aspects are important including roads, but I think most effective investments must go into education from pre-school to universities and also the medical field. Both must be, if not free, very affordable for average Armenian citizen.

[Anoush]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

Any period - before and after 17th century. What about all those orphans who were saved by Europeans, who not only set up orphanages but also helped some of these orphans to return to Republic of Armenia.

It was USA. I don't know any European organization ever helping our orphans on or after the AG. It was the US orphanages who took in the orphans.

ANCA is an organization and you are an individual. Your righteousness, like in the case of ordinary Europeans and European organizations differs from their own respective governments. I must stress again, our government has done nothing (they can start with the recognition of Darfur, Rwanda and all the others) in this regard.

Yes ANCA is an ARMENIAN organization that are downright helping the Darfurians. And they are also asking other ANCA Armenian members to help out too. I hope Armenia did or does it as well.

ԱՅՍՈՒՀԵՏ ՀԱՅԱՍՏԱՆԻ ՀԱՆՐԱՊԵՏՈՒԹՅՈՒՆՈՒՄ ԿԱՐԵԼԻ Է ՀԱՅՈՑ ՑԵՂԱՍՊԱՆՈՒԹՅՈՒՆԸ ՈՒՐԱՆԱԼ ԵՎ ՄՆԱԼ ԱՆՊԱՏԻԺ

http://www.ardarutyun.org/?p=703#n1

Well I believe Kirk Kirkorian's (via Lincy) main representative is Harout Sassounian, he has not personally done that (yet), perhaps he feels he is more effective here.

Although various aspects are important including roads, but I think most effective investments must go into education from pre-school to universities and also the medical field. Both must be, if not free, very affordable for average Armenian citizen.

What I am saying is that people like Kirkorian could send his agents to overseer over the money that they are sending to Armenia that goes into the right hands and the people would benefit not the corrupted government of RA.

However there is absolutely no excuse for Armenia's government to be traitors against their own kind and deny the Armenian Genocide, the first Genocide of the 20th century. I hope the souls of the 1.5 Million martyrs would go and annihilate them for denying it if that is true!

[Catharsis]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

It was USA. I don't know any European organization ever helping our orphans on or after the AG. It was the US orphanages who took in the orphans.

German-Armenian Society, Catholic and Protestant missions (Europe) and many other European humanitarian organizations set up orphanages throughout the region, it wasn't only the Near East Relief or American Protestant missions.

Yes ANCA is an ARMENIAN organization that are downright helping the Darfurians. And they are also asking other ANCA Armenian members to help out too. I hope Armenia did or does it as well.

I hope so too, but it has not so far.

What I am saying is that people like Kirkorian could send his agents to overseer over the money that they are sending to Armenia that goes into the right hands and the people would benefit not the corrupted government of RA.

Yes, however, our government wants the money go through its channels. Lincy's efforts (sadly) would be greatly hindered if it does not cooperate with the government.

However there is absolutely no excuse for Armenia's government to be traitors against their own kind and deny the Armenian Genocide, the first Genocide of the 20th century. I hope the souls of the 1.5 Million martyrs would go and annihilate them for denying it if that is true!

Here are the hearings from the first day of the court session about the whole case against the Soros (the guy who funds those great color revolutions) funded Caucasus Institute brought about by Armen Ayvazyan the chairman of the Ararat Center for Strategic Research in English if anyone is interested and was unable to read in Armenian -

http://www.ardarutyun.org/?p=665&lang=en

Here is the English Translation of the Full Text of the First Lawsuit Against the Denial of the Armenian Genocide in Armenia -

http://blog.ararat-center.org/?p=325

[Sip]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

Nice to see the Swiss finally grow some balls and take a stance on something. More power to them.

[Alexandros]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

Assyrian Church Bell Tower in Turkey Threatened in Retaliation for Swiss Minaret Ban

Posted GMT 12-10-2009 0:17:6

Diyarbakir, Turkey -- Following the referendum banning minarets in Switzerland, 3 persons visiting the 1,750 year old Assyrian [also known as Chaldean and Syriac] Church of Virgin Mary in Diyarbakir allegedly threatened priest Yusuf Akbulut by saying "Switzerland is banning minarets and we will ban bell towers. You will demolish the bell tower."

Fr. Akbulut informed the police that 3 persons visited the church, located in the Alipasa neighborhood of Sur District, last Friday and demanded the demolition of the bell towers by next Friday. Fr. Akbulut, the priest of the church whose internal and external security is being provided by the police, made the following statement:

"Last Friday, on the 4th of this month, my church and I were threatened. 3 persons in their 40ties visited the church at 14:00. They knocked on the door of my house inside the church and asked me to come outside. In the courtyard of the church, these 3 persons that I do not know asked me if the church had a bell tower. When I told them that it did, they said, 'you will demolish this bell tower. Switzerland is banning minarets and we will ban bell towers. You will demolish this bell tower by next Friday.' When I told them that this was a historic church with an ancient bell tower and that the foundations (directorate) and the State would react, they said for the second time 'go and complain to whoever you want. This bell tower will not remain here, we will take the necessary action' and left. Then I filed a complaint with the police. Now the police are seeking the 3 persons who threatened me by checking the camera records."

Noting that he will not demolish the 600 year old church bell, Fr. Akbulut stated that the minaret ban in Switzerland did not have anything to do with him and added:

"We Assyrians have been living in these territories for 6-7 thousand years. We have a deep-rooted history. Who can dare demolish this bell tower by asserting the minaret ban in Switzerland as a pretext? We do not approve of the minaret ban. Switzerland should let them construct minarets in mosques. Everyone has the right to worship freely. We all pray to God."

Noting that five families reside in the church and nearly ten other Christian families in the city centre of Diyarbakir, Fr. Akbulut said, "As the Assyrian community, for centuries we led a peaceful life with the other people residing on these territories. We never did any harm to anyone. It is very wrong to hold us accountable for the minaret ban in Switzerland."

By Ramazan Yavuz and Serdar Sunar
DHA News Agency

Translated from Turkish by AINA.

Link

[Sip]

Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

Wow ... I figured by now everyone in the world would know bells are CLEARLY much more holy than minarets. Geeez.