Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[Sip]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

It seems everyone in this (heated) debate is quite familiar with nazism, fascism, zionism...

I am probably one of those that is least familiar with those terms. My main trouble is trying to understand the underlying logic of when and how Armenian "nationalism" (at least accroding to several vocal self-appointed representatives of the group that tend to show up around here) has found its ideologies "inline" with Nazism and even worse, why the need to glorify Hitler?

My only explanation thus far is that it seems like the hatred of Turk has been shifting to the ever-present hatred of Jew and since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-jew, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism as the model for Armenian Nationalism ... ? I do understand the hatred of [sizse=2]j[/size]ew though as it is much more prevelant among the araba-hyes than the sovietized Armenia-hyes.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

It seems everyone in this (heated) debate is quite familiar with nazism, fascism, zionism... some having expressed sympathies with the former, others with the latter (Ara). So it would be enlightening to have your respective takes (including Ara's) on the following:

There is nothing wrong with NSDAP (Nazi) ideology. As a matter of fact, compared to Bolshevism/Communism, Capitalism, modern forms of Socialism (which are in essence new forms of internationalism/globalism) Nazi political ideology, which in essence is national socialism, makes the most rational sense for any given nation. Nazism did 'not' destroy Germany, Nazism miraculously resurrected Germany. What destroyed Germany was an international consortium that wanted to stop their advance/progression before they could compete with their global wealth and power. Nevertheless, Germany's war effort was primarily against Bolshevism and international Jewry/Zionism. Had Nazis not preemptively attacked the Soviet Union, the chances were extremely high that the Soviet Union would attack western Europe. Moreover, tactically, the war for Germany was lost due to several bad strategic decisions, not the least resulted in the lose of vital natural resources. Nevertheless, the German war machine was more than a match for the entire combined weight of the allies powers. In a historical context, Nazism took Germany from utter ruin to the top of the world in several years. A point in your posts touched upon the collaboration of Zionists with Nazis. Here is an excerpt from an excellent book by a Jewish "holocaust" survivor titled the Hidden History of Zionism:

Collaborating with the Nazis

This strategy of enlisting Europe’s virulent Jew-haters, and of aligning with the most vicious movements and regimes as financial and military patrons of a Zionist colony in Palestine, did not exclude the Nazis. The Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on June 21, 1933. In it the Federation noted: ... a rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life ... must also take place in the xxxish national group. On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish so to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible ... [81] Far from repudiating this policy, the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 defeated a resolution calling for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43. During this very Congress, Hitler announced a trade agreement with the WZO’s Anglo-Palestine Bank, breaking, thereby, the xxxish boycott of the Nazi regime at a time when the German economy was extremely vulnerable. It was the height of the Depression and people were wheeling barrels full of worthless German Marks. The World Zionist Organization broke the xxxish boycott and became the principal distributor of Nazi goods throughout the Middle East and Northern Europe. They established the Ha’avara, which was a bank in Palestine designed to receive monies from the German-xxxish bourgeoisie, with which sums Nazi goods were purchased in very substantial quantity.

Embracing the S.S.

Consequently, the Zionists brought Baron Von Mildenstein of the S.S. Security Service to Palestine for a six-month visit in support of Zionism. This visit led to a twelve-part report by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda, in Der Angriff (The Assault) in 1934 praising Zionism. Goebbels ordered a medallion struck with the Swastika on one side, and on the other, the Zionist Star of David. In May 1935, Reinhardt Heydrich, the chief of the S.S. Security Service, wrote an article in which he separated xxxs into "two categories." The xxxs he favored were the Zionists: "Our good wishes together with our official good will go with them."[82] In 1937, the Labor "socialist" Zionist militia, the Haganah (founded by Jabotinsky) sent an agent (Feivel Polkes) to Berlin offering to spy for the S.S. Security Service in exchange for the release of xxxish wealth for Zionist colonization. Adolf Eichmann was invited to Palestine as the guest of the Haganah.

Feivel Polkes informed Eichmann:

xxxish nationalist circles were very pleased with the radical German policy, since the strength of the xxxish population in Palestine would be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable future the xxxs could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs. [83] The list of acts of Zionist collaboration with the Nazis goes on and on. What can account for this incredible willingness of Zionist leaders to betray the xxxs of Europe? The entire rationale for the state of Israel offered by its apologists has been that it was intended to be the refuge of xxxs facing persecution. The Zionists, to the contrary, saw any effort to rescue Europe’s xxxs not as the fulfilment of their political purpose but as a threat to their entire movement. If Europe’s xxxs were saved, they would wish to go elsewhere and the rescue operation would have nothing to do with the Zionist project of conquering Palestine.


Sacrificing Europe’s xxxs

The correlative to the acts of collaboration with the Nazis throughout the 1930’s was that when attempts to change the immigration laws of the United States and Western Europe were contemplated in order to provide token refuge for persecuted xxxs of Europe, it was the Zionists who actively organized to stop these efforts. Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative." [84] This obsession with colonizing Palestine and overwhelming the Arabs led the Zionist movement to oppose any rescue of the xxxs facing extermination, because the ability to deflect select manpower to Palestine would be impeded. From 1933 to 1935, the WZO turned down two-thirds of all the German xxxs who applied for immigration certificates.

Berel Katznelson, editor of the Labor Zionist Davar, described the "cruel criteria of Zionism": German xxxs were too old to bear children in Palestine, lacked trades for building a Zionist colony, didn’t speak Hebrew and weren’t Zionists. In place of these xxxs facing extermination the WZO brought to Palestine 6,000 trained young Zionists from the United States, Britain and other safe countries. Worse than this, the WZO not merely failed to seek any alternative for the xxxs facing the Holocaust, the Zionist leadership opposed belligerently all efforts to find refuge for fleeing xxxs. As late as 1943, while the xxxs of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.

This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American xxxish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable xxxs to find refuge. He stated: It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading xxxish organizations met in conference ... It was decided that no xxxish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws. [85]

Source: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/

[axel]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

My only explanation thus far is that it seems like the hatred of Turk has been shifting to the ever-present hatred of xxx and since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-xxx, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism as the model for Armenian Nationalism ... ?

Sip, I'm afraid your explanation appears to make sense.

Nazism took Germany from utter ruin to the top of the world in several years

One wonders how this could have been possible without the help of so-called "international finance".
If you have the chance to read Solzhenitsyn's book "Two hundred years together" on the history of xxxs and Russians in the last two centuries (not available in english to this day), you will note that "England" was able to put extreme economic pressure on Russia back in the nineteenth century so that additional rights be granted to the xxxish minority.
One simply wonders how this was not possible to achieve with a strangled Germany ruined at the end of WW1, having to pay heavy tributes to the victors and later hit by the 1929 crash. On the contrary the 30s witnessed a true economical miracle. Quite miraculous indeed. Yhvh's "invisible hand" possibly?

As to nazism in itself, its biological racism, you may want to call that rational. Allow me to call it primitive without even getting into the ethical debate.

Nazism's legacy? the annihilation (genocide) of the german nation. a whole generation sacrificed, eight million dead (at least) and 20 million on the russian side (to mention the not-so-often mentioned second-class victims of this conflict). Still a positive, though, the foundation of the state of Israel and now a memorial right next to the Bundestag. No memorial for german victims to this day btw but eternal collective guilt on the shoulders of the post-nazi generations.


Getting back to earlier messages,
Ara's defense a few posts ago as to him refering to "european fascism" in his comment, not to fascism in itself, doesn't seem quite honest (as usual)
Even so, maybe we should mention Mussolini's xxxish mistresses (his relationship with the influential Margherita Sarfatti lasted some twenty years or so), General Franco's not so aryan roots or the role of some italian xxxish intellectuals in shaping up fascism as an ideology?

At the same time, Spanish diplomats in the Axis countries actively protected xxxs and Spain itself became a safe haven for xxxish refugees, as Franco refused to implement anti-Semitic laws, as demanded by the Axis. Franco returned to complete neutrality in 1943, when the tide of the war had turned decisively against Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_under_Franco

It seems as though our very own intellectual & dissident Ara B. holds his readers for uncultured cretins.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Sip, I'm afraid your explanation appears to make sense.

Not quite, axel. Unless irrationality makes sense to you. Some want to emphasize the "Jewish role" in the Armenian Genocide for two fundamental reasons. 1) The Jewish role in the Armenian Genocide is the least known factor. 2) Manymost Armenians think Jew are friends.

Simple as that.

One wonders how this could have been possible without the help of so-called "international finance". If you have the chance to read Solzhenitsyn's book "Two hundred years together" on the history of xxxs and Russians in the last two centuries (not available in english to this day), you will note that "England" was able to put extreme economic pressure on Russia back in the nineteenth century so that additional rights be granted to the xxxish minority.

I have not read the book in question but Britain's role in leading Russian Jewry is well known.

One simply wonders how this was not possible to achieve with a strangled Germany ruined at the end of WW1, having to pay heavy tributes to the victors and later hit by the 1929 crash. On the contrary the 30s witnessed a true economical miracle. Quite miraculous indeed. Yhvh's "invisible hand" possibly?

Nazis did have some outside financial support. However, it seems that they broke away from their early financiers at a certain point. Moreover, due to the very nature of Nazism itself, in ways similar to Communism, it is able to survive without outside support. The fact that a powerful ideological movement could potentially free a nation from the grasps of the financial elite worried the elite.

As to nazism in itself, its biological racism, you may want to call that rational. Allow me to call it primitive without even getting into the ethical debate.

The belief that Nazism was merely a form of "biological racism" is in itself a "primitive" understanding of the matter without even getting into the ethical debate. Perhaps you need to be reminded that Nazis had close political/economic/cultural dealings with Arabs, Hindus and Asians.

[Siamanto]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

1- My criticism of the hooligans of this forum has strictly nothing to do with nationalism: it's about hooliganism.

On the bright side, no one really takes them seriously ... they have managed to reduce themselves to the same level of typical internet spam. Unfortunately though, that has meant that a lot of people have just learned to ignore the forum entirely and not come back.

I would not underestimate the fact that they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate
Most of all, when hooligans - or other organized gangs - invade a "neighborhood," running away is not the answer: They should be confronted until they learn to respect the neighborhood's culture and members.

[Siamanto]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Some of the points Siamanto raises are valid (even though he is a "petit con"). Part of his attitude is not, nor is his tone.

I will repeat what I told HayotzAmrotz - as it is applies to everybody:
"I reply to a poster using the tone of his/her text; so, if what you see - i.e. a reflection of yourself - does not seem pleasant, then you should take a good look and reconsider your own self." Keep in mind Velvet Underground's "I'll Be Your Mirror" or Funkadelic's "Don't Produce The Cause, If You Don't Like The Effect."

After a certain point, I allow myself to say it as it is, and as long as I'm not given incentives to change the tone of my replies. Otherwise, why should/would I deprive myself of the pleasure of savoring the "poetic violence of the Nietzschean Verb" as can be savored fine wine?

It seems everyone in this (heated) debate is quite familiar with nazism, fascism, zionism.

I'm sure that Dr. Junkestein - aka Armenian - and the other hooligans of the forum have read "Nazism for Dummies" or some vulgarization in a conspiracy theory book, site or article.


P.S. During an interview with Vassilis Alexadis, the commentator quoted his book (about a Greek monastery) where he says: "Priests pray, they don't think." It may not make you smile, but a smile surfaced upon my face when I heard it.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

I would not underestimate the fact that they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate
Most of all, when hooligans - or other organized gangs - invade a "neighborhood," running away is not the answer: They should be confronted until they learn to respect the neighborhood's culture and members.

Listen to yourself: "they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate". You sound like a member of Tsarskaya Okhranka of Nicholas II in persuit of Revolutionaries. That's a pretty sad attitude you have.

Aren't you ashamed of yourself to call fellow Armenians, whos only "fault" is their love for their people and country, "they", "Junkenstein", "*urkish", "hooligans" etc? Don't you realise that your attitude is wrong?

Perhaps you misunderstand what I and my fellow Armenians here stand for. I mean, I'm not perfect, far from it, but I'm crystal clear on what I believe in and for what I stand for, and if you are unclear then just go and simply read Garegin Nzhdeh and understand my position. Why don't you do that and then come here and discuss Tseghakronutiun with us?

I don't want to put you in the same category as arabaliozian, I'm afraid he is lost for good, but I don't think you are. So, please think about it and try to change your attitude because it doesn't do anyone any good.

[axel]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Not quite, axel. Unless irrationality makes sense to you. Some want to emphasize the "xxxish role" in the Armenian Genocide for two fundamental reasons. 1) The xxxish role in the Armenian Genocide is the least known factor. 2) Manymost Armenians think xxx are friends.

I do not dispute this fact but if you read Sip's sentence with some attention ("since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-xxx, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism"), he's alluding to something quite different.

I have not read the book in question

You definitely should, esp. the second volume. Maybe Haytoug has read it (a french translation was published a few years ago)

http://www.amazon.fr/Deux-si%C3%A8cles-ensemble-1917-1972-sovi%C3%A9tique/dp/2213615187/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1200906043&sr=8-1

available in russian on the web: http://sila.by.ru

The belief that Nazism was merely a form of "biological racism" is in itself a "primitive" understanding of the matter without even getting into the ethical debate. Perhaps you need to be reminded that Nazis had close political/economic/cultural dealings with Arabs, Hindus and Asians.

I was refering to the "theory" which is pretty shallow at best. If you want to refer to the reality of the third reich, then it is something quite different. One would have a few surprises in fact if one would take a close look at the "aryanity" of some party members including top officials.

On the other hand, how should one understand the treatment of ukrainians in "liberated ukraine"? (as reported by Ernst Nolte in Der europäische Bürgerkrieg 1917 - 1945 http://www.amazon.com/europ%C3%A4isc...0906455&sr=8-3)

But enough said on this topic.

Armenian nationalism would very much benefit from some putting their unhealthy fascination for nazis aside. End of statement.

I'm sure that Dr. Junkestein - aka Armenian - and the other hooligans of the forum...

Siamanto, don't expect me to engage into systematic bashing of fellow armenians. You should really make an effort and stick to the field of ideas. Nobody prevents you from defending your positions. You must realize that your current and past behaviour haven't improved matters in the direction you hoped for. So either your approach is not right or the cause is already lost. In both cases, there is no reason for you to continue with your present attitude.

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Monday, January 21, 2008
*******************************************
THE LAMENT OF A WRITER
****************************************
“I am ashamed to call myself an Armenian,” Vahé Oshagan is reported to have said when one of his books was given a negative reception in our weeklies. Once upon a time I too identified myself with my fellow Armenians to such an unreasonable degree that I was embarrassed when any one of them behaved badly. I know now that Armenians, all Armenians without exception, are first and foremost individuals before being members of a tribe or nation; and as individuals, they should be judged as individuals. If an Armenian chooses to make an ass of himself in public, so be it, that is his choice, not mine or anyone else’s. If, as an individual he is free, so am I, and I freely choose not to be responsible for his actions.
*
Only dumb people assess themselves as smart, believe in their own assessment, and brag about it. And it doesn’t take much to be a victim. It takes even less to wallow in victimhood. Now then, go ahead and say, I am proud to be an Armenian because I am smart and because I come from a long line of perennial victims who have harmed no one but themselves and one another.
*
Whenever odars are given the opportunity or care enough to judge us, they will do so not by what we say about ourselves but our history; and no matter how you slice it, our history is a sad one, or, to put it more bluntly, it is nothing to brag about. If we have anything to brag about, it is our literature. But who reads Armenian writers these days? Not even Armenians. If Vahé Oshagan were alive today, I would tell him he has nothing to be ashamed of. After all, his book was read and reviewed by a handful of Armenians, which means, he was better off than most of our classics.
#

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

nazism, bolshevism, fascism -- only ottomanized armenians (armenian on the outside, turkish on the inside) would see anything remotely positive in them. as for zionism: it is a reaction to universal and millennial anti-semitism, and as such, understandable. / ara