Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Could it be that the agents of influence are now going after Garegin since he is close to Serj? Do they see the Church as a threat, but act as if they have the best intentions at heart? While I will admit that Garegin is not the most pious person to have ever held the title 'Catholicos', he has been a good administrator and has helped clean house which our Church has needed for some time.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I am disappointed at your perspectives of the issues involved.

If your statements by implication are true, then my criticisms/reply is within your own statement.

Could it be that the agents of influence are now going after Garegin since he is close to Serj?

No Catholicos should be “close” to a political leader which could be interpreted as him being “not close” to others.
The Catholicos is the spiritual leader of all the people.

Do they see the Church as a threat, but act as if they have the best intentions at heart?

The church should always be a threat to those who deserve to be criticised.
I have in mind moral degradation, social injustice and everything else the Church (should ) stands for.
Also,
NEVER EVEN A HINT OF POLITICAL LEANING.

While I will admit that Garegin is not the most pious person to have ever held the title ....

WOW, you are better informed than me.

, he has been a good administrator and has helped clean house which our Church has needed for some time.

You mean a good hirer and firer, keeps the files tidy and organised and not much of a spiritual element in his management style.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Face it, any religious leader, has political power and connections. When Armenia was without a king or leader it was our Catholicos who played the role. Do you think the things they are saying about Garegin are new or that he wasn't like this since he took office? Is it by mere chance that now, when agents of the West have stepped up their political pressure on Yerevan, as well as their information war, that now they are going after the oldest Armenian institution and one who's current head happens to be close to the ruling power in Yerevan.

There are crappy bishops within our Church which they can easily talk about as well, like the archbishop in the eastern part of the US. Yet, they know better, they will go after the head and discredit him when they had been silent since 1999. I do not think this recent wave is random and not connected with the political agenda the West has for Armenia. But you can go on ahead thinking that the Catholicos is aweful and not tending to his flock properly.

[gkv]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armanen, you don't understand what it means to be a spiritual leader.
faith is not ideology. there should be no real politik here.

it goes without saying your arguments are totally unacceptable, morally speaking yet, even if we leave the moral sphere and adopt your warped politico-ideological stance on the matter,

discredit him ... the west

(zionists have not made their way in the conversation yet but they are not too far i assume)

the answer is such people should behave in a way that make it hard for others to discredit them and what they are supposed to represent.

any behaviour that lends to such obvious criticism should be considered anti-national in your book (if that is your scale of truth)

pointing fingers at external forces to excuse inadmissible behaviour is totally twisted/perverse.

there should be no impunity here.
accepting impunity amounts to cultivating weakness.
no "good"/consequent "nationalist" should do that.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armanen, you don't understand what it means to be a spiritual leader.
faith is not ideology. there should be no real politik here.

it goes without saying your arguments are totally unacceptable, morally speaking yet, even if we leave the moral sphere and adopt your warped politico-ideological stance on the matter,



(zionists have not made their way in the conversation yet but they are not too far i assume)

the answer is such people should behave in a way that make it hard for others to discredit them and what they are supposed to represent.

any behaviour that lends to such obvious criticism should be considered anti-national in your book (if that is your scale of truth)

pointing fingers at external forces to excuse inadmissible behaviour is totally twisted/perverse.

there should be no impunity here.
accepting impunity amounts to cultivating weakness.
no "good"/consequent "nationalist" should do that.

I think you live in a fairy tale world and you do not understand what it means to BE a leader regardless if he is religious or not. Any organization, especially one as large as our Church will have corruption. You underestimate or dismiss the human factor which has inherent faults, call it original sin.

What is warped about my ideology? Do you eat what they feed you on the mainstream media? Do you think you're normal because you think and act like others, an automon basically?

Of course people should behave in a moral way, but the more power one has the more likely he is to misbehave. My issue in this case is why Garegin's faults are bing brought up now, not a year ago or 5 years ago but NOW, especially since the political pressure on Yerevan has increased recently. So I am not making excuses for the Catholicos, and ideally I'd like him to be a good leader both spiratually and managerially, however, I realize he is a human a prone to weakness. I also realize that at the very least he has been a good admin and cleaned house.

Sorry, we do not all believe in pixie dust and unicorns.

[gkv]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

"fairy tale"

not with me.

i believe i gave you an answer that was that of a realist, the last three lines especially. it is not about asking anyone to be perfect. it is about discipline.

with reasonings such as yours, anything goes. "human factor", "original sin"...

another thing, there are political leaders and there are spiritual leaders. if spiritual leaders start acting as political leaders there is no spiritual leadership left.

as to the reason why this surfaced now, well this is peripheral to the issue at hand.

the argument according to which one should allow anything so as not to play in the hand of foreign influences is flawed.

we will be less at the mercy of foreign influences when we are stronger from within. and if we are not, then i believe we should pay.

[gkv]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

and if you don't agree with the above, i think i can equate your brand of nationalism with some sort of weak degenerate sentimentalism.

[lampron]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

The problem with Armenian clergy was written about by Hagop Baronian and others in the 19th century. Not much has changed. Most of the people who enter this profession do so because it gives them an easy life. They will pretend they have higher motivations. With some exceptions the majority are there for self-interest. There is no accountability. If a lower ranking clergyman is caught, most of the time he will be supported by the hierarchy and the matter will be closed.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

"fairy tale"

not with me.

i believe i gave you an answer that was that of a realist, the last three lines especially. it is not about asking anyone to be perfect. it is about discipline.

with reasonings such as yours, anything goes. "human factor", "original sin"...

another thing, there are political leaders and there are spiritual leaders. if spiritual leaders start acting as political leaders there is no spiritual leadership left.

as to the reason why this surfaced now, well this is peripheral to the issue at hand.

the argument according to which one should allow anything so as not to play in the hand of foreign influences is flawed.

we will be less at the mercy of foreign influences when we are stronger from within. and if we are not, then i believe we should pay.

No, you really believe that high ranking spiritual leaders are immune from politics. The cold reality is that they are not, never have been, and in all likelihood will not change. Do you know the history of the popes well? They would make the actions of any of our Catholicos' look like peanuts. So you gave no 'realist' answer, rather an idealic one which of course I'd support but I realize we do not live in an idealic world.

The only spiritual leader one should have is God and his own moral compass. You should not expect someone to speak for God, and then get bent out of shape when it turns out they are human and make poor choices too sometimes.

It's kinda hard to be strong from within when we have self destructive peasantry that will scream at the top of their lungs when an Armenian tries to led them but will follow like good sheep when it is a foreigner telling them what to do. And within this peasantry, we also have traitors to the nation who will sell out the entire country just to make a buck or be installed in office. I feel like you have a very poor understanding of the Armenian psyche, of geopolitics, and probably the history of religious organizations as well.

[gkv]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

you have a very poor understanding

if that's how you want to wrap things up, have it your way.