Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

[yerazhishda]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

This is a wider process that has been going on for some time. Are you aware that on his last vist to the US, Garegin got money from the Eastern prelacy and Archbisop. No one made a fuss about that? Now, as political tensions rise in Armenia, as a continued information war is being waged in and against Armenia, all of sudden people come out of the woodworks and proclaim the Church as corrupt. There is an agenda here and it is not a noble one of cleaning the Church from corruption.

I think this is the point that I missed about the article. I think you are very correct Armanen in saying that there is an information war going on inside Armenia basically being NATO vs. everyone else. Maybe the bishop should be reprimanded, maybe not but the fact that I failed to miss (and that you pointed out) is that the motivations for it are coming from - let's just say - 'less than holy' people and organizations.

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

That's correct, the AAC is not a democratic institution (and considering the likes of some self-hating Armenians, thank God!). It is an Apostolic Church based on Apostolic teachings, the Church Fathers, among other things. The duty of the Church is to uphold the faith of Christianity, not sway with modern/contemporary opinion and please the populace. We are not liberal protestants.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos? He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church! Any member of the Armenian church from some random worshipper to a member of the church council to a priest IS under his authority as long as they are party of the Armenian Church. So they are subordinate to him in a way. This does not negate the role the Church Council plays, but to say that they are not subordinate to the Catholicos is to diminish the role of the Catholicos. More and more you sound like a Protestant, or someone with an agenda against the Holy See!

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I think this is the point that I missed about the article. I think you are very correct Armanen in saying that there is an information war going on inside Armenia basically being NATO vs. everyone else. Maybe the bishop should be reprimanded, maybe not but the fact that I failed to miss (and that you pointed out) is that the motivations for it are coming from - let's just say - 'less than holy' people and organizations.

Right, with the bishop who started this whole thread, I think he should be rebuked and/or kicked out of the Church. Trust me, if enough Armenians demanded that this man be kicked out of the AAC, the Holy See would have no choice. But what is wrong to do is to paint the whole AAC as corrupt based on the actions of the few, which is what some are doing here, either knowingly or thru ignorance.

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

You are correct. The Bishop of Rome gave himself the infallibility only in the 19th century, 1870 to be exact. Prior to that there was no such thing, and even to this day many Catholicos take issue with papal infallibility. From my understadning, the Catholicos is first among equals. So he is equal with the other bishops but at the same time kinda higher than them.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

You are putting your own spin on the facts, that's hardly being unbaised.

Then challenge the facts I am stating.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos?

Yes I do.

Before that lets clarify what he is not.
He is not God. He was not sent or appointed by God.

He holds the highest office of the AAC, elected by his peers which includes people such as Archbishop Navasard Kchoyan.

Like any head of an institution his role is to lead his institution based on the “codes of conduct” of of his role,
avoid controversy which will undermine the faith and trust the people have in him and the church.

Uphold the traditional values of the church and spread the message to raise the spiritual awareness of the people. etc. etc.

He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church!

Yes, he is the SPIRITUAL head of the AAC
He is not the chief administrator of the local parishes nor the Head Banker.

Well you should start to learn because with your views it won't be long before you are kicked out of the Armenian Church for heresy.

It just show how much you know about the church.
You haven't managed to understand the difference between spiritual and civil issues.

Heresy refers to spiritual issues not for criticising the catholicos or anybody else for civil issues.
CASH and PROPERTY and (civil) OPINIONS are civil issues.

Contesting the church traditional teaching is heresy.

Individuals do not get “kicked out” of the church. ( you making laws as you go along !).

Clergy can get defrocked for deviating from the church “spiritual” teaching.
Read the article posted earlier explaining the issues.


The issues here are not that whether the church (doctrine) is democratic or not.
Nobody is contesting the AAC church doctrine or how that doctrine is “maintained”.

Without considering the entities below we are talking cross purposely.

Difference between spiritual and civil issues.
Parish Elections, power and constitutions.
Local (civil) “power” and duties and the “global” church spiritual authority.
Roles of individual entities such as priest, church council, Catholicos etc. etc.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

Yerazhista
With the greatest respect I disagree with you for the following reasons.

The Church council is an elected body within an individual country.

The Church council has a constitution which it has to adhere to.
Incidentally this constitution would have been rubber stamped by the Catholicos of the time.

The constitution is protected by the law of the country.

Any action or challenge for a decision contrary to the constitution can be contested in the LOCAL COURTS.

This is nothing new.

To even suggest the catholicos can walk in and take decisions as he see fit OR

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

is simply bizarre .

This is where the catholicos ( presumably through his advisors) is wrong and he has contributed to this sad situation.

This is nothing to do ( for me) whether the AAC corrupt or not, although I do not know the ultimate intentions of his decisions.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Then challenge the facts I am stating.

I brought up a number of issues which you did not address. That this is not something new, that the people behind this have other intentions, and that the Catholicos may be in the process of revamping certain things in the Church. Is he doing it via the proper channels, it may seem not, but that's likely what he is doing.

The only facts you are stating is that the Church Council has powers of its own.

Before that lets clarify what he is not.
He is not God. He was not sent or appointed by God.
He holds the highest office of the AAC, elected by his peers which includes people such as Archbishop Navasard Kchoyan.
Like any head of an institution his role is to lead his institution based on the “codes of conduct” of of his role,
avoid controversy which will undermine the faith and trust the people have in him and the church.
Uphold the traditional values of the church and spread the message to raise the spiritual awareness of the people. etc. etc.
Yes, he is the SPIRITUAL head of the AAC
He is not the chief administrator of the local parishes nor the Head Banker.

Did anyone here say he was appointed by God or infallible? So why are you bringing this up?
I believe it is the idiots that sit on the Church council in Geneva who are stiring up controversy, not the Catholicos as you seem to be implying. Why is it so hard for you to understand that the church council acted out of line as well as the local priest by shutting the doors and refusing entry to local worshippers and high ranking clergy from the Holy See? And I like how you failed to mention that in cases where the local parish does not have enough members, they can be subsidized by the Holy See or the next closest parish that can afford it. This is not written in any bylaws of the Church either but it happens, yet I do not see you complaining about it.

It just show how much you know about the church.
You haven't managed to understand the difference between spiritual and civil issues.

I know it quite well, it is sad you have such a rosy view of things. Real world does not work that way.

Heresy refers to spiritual issues not for criticising the catholicos or anybody else for civil issues.
CASH and PROPERTY and (civil) OPINIONS are civil issues.

Sorry, but insulting the Catholicos or his authority can be grounds from getting kicked out of the church, it does not happen often in our church but it has occured. If heresy may not be the correct word.

Contesting the church traditional teaching is heresy.

Individuals do not get “kicked out” of the church. ( you making laws as you go along !).

Clergy can get defrocked for deviating from the church “spiritual” teaching.

See above. Individuals can and have been kicked out from the AAC.

The issues here are not that whether the church (doctrine) is democratic or not.
Nobody is contesting the AAC church doctrine or how that doctrine is “maintained”.

Really? Because you have been contesting the role of the Catholicos and therefore, however indirectly, Church doctrine as well. Also, you have been painting the Church with a very wide brush just because of the actions of a few. So does 1 bad clergyman now equal 10 good ones?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I believe it is the idiots that sit on the Church council in Geneva who are stiring up controversy, not the Catholicos as you seem to be implying. Why is it so hard for you to understand that the church council acted out of line as well as the local priest by shutting the doors and refusing entry to local worshippers and high ranking clergy from the Holy See?

Do you even know anyone in Switzerland? Or is your "belief" simply a display of knee-jerk prejudice (or knee-jerk protection of your vested interests)? The people who are closing the church to Karekin's imported "clergy" ARE the local worshippers as a last resort against Karekin's blatant refusal to follow the wishes of Switzerland's Armenian community regarding the future of their church.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

.

.
The course of the Armenian Apostolic Church is parallel to the course of the Armenian nation.

The Church has a heavy duty in both spiritual and national sense.

Dangers are real and big, No room for complacency.

This is a perspective from one of our spiritual leaders.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ye8ntYTN4

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDpq3QvOc4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX6Z1l0Alhc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

The Armenian church in Nice, a nest of the Armenian mafia, controlled by intimidation and beatings?

In its issue of May 14, 2011, the newspaper Nice-Matin, as part of an investigation covering two full pages on the actions of the Russian mafia on the Riviera, including several involving Armenian nationals, reveals that the former priest of the Armenian Church in Nice, Vatche AYRAPETYAN, is currently the subject of an indictment. Among the cases concerned, are particularly two recent cases of trafficking in counterfeit currency and a prostitution ring involving the "Armenian Mafia" that including some of the perpetrators of violent intimidatory acts against the church leaders of Nice.

.....The church has became a lawless zone, deterritorialized like an embassy! Sunday after Sunday, the frightened faithful have totally deserted the church. About all this, the Parish Council has regularly met and informed the Catholicos in person, as well as the Primate and the Diocese of France. But our cries of "Help!" remain unanswered.

Full article (in French): http://www.armenews.com/article.php3...recherche=Nice

Or just a case of move along ... nothing to see here.

FRENCH DIOCESE OF ARMENIAN APOSTOLIC CHURCH NOT IN CRISIS

The French Diocese of the Armenian Apostolic Church (AAC) continues its
mission of preserving spiritual, cultural and national values of
French Armenians in spite of the obstacles posed by certain forces
and persons whose aim is to weaken the Diocese.

The French Diocese of AAC issued a statement regarding media reports on
developments in the church community of Nice. The document says that the statement by former parish council of Nice is untrue.

"The statement attempts to present that the French Diocese is in a
"critical and alarming state". We confirm that it is not true. We urge
members of the former parish council of Nice to stop their destructive
activities. We call on them to promote a healthy spiritual atmosphere
in life of Armenian believers in Nice instead of misinforming the
Armenian community," reads the statement issued by church council of
the French Diocese, Armenian Apostolic Church.

Original article in French: http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=70376

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

In its issue of May 14, 2011, the newspaper Nice-Matin, as part of an investigation covering two full pages on the actions of the Russian mafia on the Riviera, including several involving Armenian nationals, reveals that the former priest of the Armenian Church in Nice, Vatche AYRAPETYAN, is currently the subject of an indictment. Among the cases concerned, are particularly two recent cases of trafficking in counterfeit currency and a prostitution ring involving the "Armenian Mafia" that including some of the perpetrators of violent intimidatory acts against the church leaders of Nice.

.....The church has became a lawless zone, deterritorialized like an embassy! Sunday after Sunday, the frightened faithful have totally deserted the church. About all this, the Parish Council has regularly met and informed the Catholicos in person, as well as the Primate and the Diocese of France. But our cries of "Help!" remain unanswered.

The Armenian church in Nice, a nest of the Armenian mafia, controlled by intimidation and beatings?

They are getting more sophisticated.

Control of the parish church is not by replacing the priest but actually get on the parish council.
You only need enough members to be obstructive and undermine the process.

Create divisions within the council and within the community.
The frightened faithful and deserted Church helps.

The seal of their success will be lack of strong willed community leaders.
Very much an uphill struggle.

Of coarse the behaviour of the Primate and the Catholicos is despicable .

Clearly they are voting with their (in)actions.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

Let's not forget an earlier example of losing (or selling!) your moral compass and getting away with it: Patriarch Yeghishe Derderian. Amongst his many sins, in 1967 he stole dozens of medieval Armenian manuscripts from the library of the Jerusalem patriarchate, and then tried to sell them at Sotheby's auction house in London! The whole thing was hushed up by the Armenian Church and he actually remained the Jerusalem patriarch until his death in 1990. Until recently, I wondered how it was hushed up, but recently I was talking to someone who knew about the incident and he told me that rather than getting the auction completely stopped (which would mean admitting the manuscripts had been stolen), the manuscripts were bought privately by the Armenian Church and then returned to Jerusalem. This avoided the patriarch being arrested for attempting to sell stolen property. The auction catalogue has since become a collectable curiosity.

I was reminded of this because one of Derderian's probably ill-gotten treasures is on ebay. Item 270759511340 - "antique C1811 box from the personal collection of Patriarch of all Armenians for 30 years - Yeghishe Derderian. Hand made box with solid Gold and 4 green Emeralds on the cover and solid Silver on the bottom part". Buy it now for $4,900.00 (or maybe for $2,900.00 if nobody else bids).