armenian revolutionary federation (tashnagtsootyoon)

[vrej]

why thank you dantz.. yes Armenian music is the best..

Just to sort out some mistaken information..

The ARF made the most correct descision in declaring independence in 1918, we hadn't had an independent state for more than 600 years prior to that, and after the Genocide which was so large scale we needed an independent Armenia. During the bolshevik revolution when the russian troops pulled out of the Armenian divisions and left us to our will, we had to fight on our own and declare independence or else there was going to be no way of us claiming lands into our borders under treaties (like sevres) after ww1. Even though there treaties were useless, at the time they were looking bright. In my opinion, if we did not gain independence in 1918, we wouldn't have the Armenia we have today because it would have been given away... Declaring independence showed the world we are still here and we demand rights. i could go more in depth but i have no time right now..

moving on..

Also, you say that the ARF was in charge of gathering volunteers for the army. If you are talking after independance, that is, of course, true: as the government, it was their responsibility to set up a national army. If you are talking about before the independance, then once again, I, like any other armenian, have full respect and admiration and pride towards the revolutionary movements that freed us from the turks.

I was speaking about prior to the declaring of independence.
But yah they did the same after like you said they had to, but they did as much before.

You speak of assistance by the bolsheviks, and we needed assistance from here and there.. i think the independence of Armenia in 1918 was a wake up call that we have to rely on ourselves for once, however bad the aftermath be.. because at the end of it all if we can't rely on ourselves then the future is bad... we ended up relying on the soviets and they too screwed us over with there sensorship and all, if w didnt have that 2 or 3 years of freedom and independence we would have fully be lost in the storm of oppression both from turkey and soviets.

Now, during the soviet years, the ARF was not much help to Armenia. Still pushing for independance, they worked alongside the CIA in fields such as spying. Once again, had Armenia reached independance before the fall of the USSR, what good would have come out of it?

The ARF wasn't planning on starting a war and gaining independence, it preached independence in order to make the diaspora realize that we should not be happy with the situation Armenia is, and we shouldn't fullfiill ourselves with the state the country is in under soviet hands.. Some parties like the Ramgavars agreed on leaving Armenia to the soviet and thats that... ARF preached that the only way to survive as a culture and nation is to have our own country...which was true! under soviet rule we basically had to live a fake life.

Another action that the ARF has committed with which i will never be able to agree, is the creation of the holy see of antelias. why? why create a separation between our church, the ONLY thing that has held us together, our national identity? Not only that, who can justify the assassination of USA archbishop dourian, by an armenian, in the middle of a church service?

no offense but.. you are completely wrong i suggest you study this point a bit further... the holy see of Antilias was created hundereds of years before ARF was even existant!!!!! if you would like i can tell you how it all happened...if not ask a preist and he'll tell you the history.. there is more than meets the eye in this case and it needs special attention to understand what happened.

can;t finish my post cus i gatto go but ill add a few more things..
its a pleasure debating with you!
take care

[xBaron Dants]

Parevner!

First off, in reply to anonymouse, I think you're way off on this one. I don't consider this as bickering, just discussing.


Party politics was not the goal of my post, though I realize that it might have been pretty ambiguous as I only named the ARF. It was actually an example for any other parties outside of Armenia. I even take it as a very positive note that 2 armenians that truly are interested in armenia's past and future are discussing here, rather that the "thuggin it" types that couldn't differentiate armenia from argentina.

Vrej and I obviously have different opinions, but that in no way makes me have less respect for him than I would have for somebody who agrees with me. And since we are both guided by the same desire for a strong and united Armenia, we could veeery easily put our differences aside and work together for the same goal.

Now, back to the topic. The declaration of independance was necessary. It was the dream during the years of turkish opression and it was realized, yet not under the best conditions. What I think we didn't take note of was the russian revolution. During the armenian revolutionary movement, we had hoped with a russian-armenian friendship after independance. But since our independance coincided with the russian revolution, the conditions were different. Of the two "fronts" we could've joined, we decided to wait for the americans, who of course, didn't come, and the bolshevik insurrection followed in Armenia. Oh well, I guess we can learn from that, as a new independant state, that we should never trust the USA completely.

About the soviet years, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It is true that there was mass censorship, but the USSR allowed armenians to be relatively prosper, and allowed further development of the armenian culture. Of course, I am not saying that we should've been a soviet country forever, but in the time being, and once again considering the political situation around, it was the best solution, in my humble opinion.

About the Holy See of Antelias, I guess I might be wrong on the time of creation of it, yet what I was referring to was the rejection by many tashnags of the Mother See of Echmiadzin. Things are (Thank God) better now, but we should strive for complete reunification. For instance, when Vazgen arachin came to montreal, he didn't visit Sourp Hagop, which is "affiliated" if you will, with the ARF. I can understand that the armenian catholics and protestants have their own churches because of the variation of the religions, but i really think that the rest can be united under one church. Will concessions be needed by both sides? Sure. Is it worth it? Hell yes.

Tsdesootyoon!

[clubbin714]

Very Interesting. ttt

[xBaron Dants]

pardon my ignorance...what is ttt?

[clubbin714]

It means "to the top." Can be used to get a thread back up in
front.

[xBaron Dants]

oo, i see...

What are other people's opinions on this? Are diasporan armenians ready and willing to unite? For the middle-aged generation that is running things now, I think that it is too late. But what about the youth that is now involved in yeridasartats-s and who will gradually climb up the ranks? Will they be able to create a new union for ALL armenians?