Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Sorry to be a pain. Thanks Yeznik.





Interesting. I did a little research on these historians, there were both sources; confirming and refuting their writings. But I found interesting, the following excerpt in one of the articles on the historicity of Christ:

"If there were Christians in Rome in 41-49 AD, then that's a pretty strong indication that Jesus existed, since His life would have been well within the memories of those living at the time."

Lucin, it’s my pleasure let me know if you have anymore questions. I would also recommend reading the story of King Abgar, by Movses Khorenatsi, who also communicated with Christ in the 1st century.

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Lucin, it’s my pleasure let me know if you have anymore questions. I would also recommend reading the story of King Abgar, by Movses Khorenatsi, who also communicated with Christ in the 1st century.

Yeznik, for now, I will limit myself to the following from Mathew's gospel. These are excerpts that are a bit confusing or contradictory and need clarification at least for me. I would like to know your opinion on them.
***

Յովհաննէս մկրտչի քարոզչութիւնը (Մկ 1.2-8 Ղկ 3.1-18 Յհ 1.19-28)

Ես ձեզ ջրով եմ մկրտում իբրեւ նշան ապաշխարութեան, բայց նա, ով գալիս է ինձնից յետոյ, ձեզ կը մկրտի Սուրբ Հոգով եւ կրակով:


What significance does "կրակ" have here? Why? You know that Zoroastrian 'cult' crossed my mind immediately... I assume we don't hear such a thing in other gospels?

***

Չդատել ուրիշներին (Ղկ 6.37-38, 41-42)

Որեւէ սրբութիւն շներին մի տւէք...


Okay, I know that "շուն" has been used here metaphorically. But who exactly does it refer to? And what does He mean by "սրբութիւն" here?

***

Յավհաննէս մկրտչի պատգամաւորները (Ղկ 7.18-35)


Երանի՝ նրան ով իմ պատճառով իր հաւատը չի կորցնում:


The above is what John the Baptist says. Why? Aren't people supposed to gain faith through him as well? Why would anybody lose faith because of him? What wrong was he doing?

***

Շաբաթ օրը յարգելու հարցը (Մր 2.23-28, Ղկ 6.1-5)

... Մարդու Որդին տէրն է շաբաթ օրւայ:


What does the above mean? And from what I understood Christ here encourages absolutely people to do something on Saturdays contrary to the Jewish law (that of Moses). Right?

***

Յիսուսը եւ Բէեղզեբուղը (Մր 3.20-30, Ղկ 11.14-23, 12.10)

Ով որ Մարդու Որդու դէմ խօսք ասի, Աստւած պիտի ների նրան, բայց ով ասի Սուրբ Հոգու դէմ, նա չի ների նրան ոչ այս աշխարհում ոչ էլ հանդերձեալում:


Ոչ ոք չգիտի օրը կամ ժամը (Մր 13.32-37, Ղկ 12.39-40, 17.26-30, 34-35)

Սակայն ոչ ոք չգիտի, թէ երբ է գալու այդ օրը կամ ժամը. Ոչ երկնքի հրեշտակները եւ ոչ էլ Որդին, այլ միայն Հայրը:


In the above two excerpts "Մարդու Որդի" and "Սուրբ Հոգի" / "Հայր" (inseparable parts of the Holy Trinity) not only are they being seperated from one another, but also a superior status is being attributed to the Holy Spirit. Do I understand correctly?

***

Քանանացի կնոջ հաւատը (Մր 7.24-30)

Ես միայն Իսրայէլի ժողովրդի կորած ոչխարների համար եմ ուղարկւել:


Why?

***

As for king Abgar's story, I think I've read it in Hayots Patmoutyun if I'm not confusing him with the King Tirdad.

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Yeznik, for now, I will limit myself to the following from Mathew's gospel. These are excerpts that are a bit confusing or contradictory and need clarification at least for me. I would like to know your opinion on them.
***

Յովհաննէս մկրտչի քարոզչութիւնը (Մկ 1.2-8 Ղկ 3.1-18 Յհ 1.19-28)

Ես ձեզ ջրով եմ մկրտում իբրեւ նշան ապաշխարութեան, բայց նա, ով գալիս է ինձնից յետոյ, ձեզ կը մկրտի Սուրբ Հոգով եւ կրակով:


What significance does "կրակ" have here? Why? You know that Zoroastrian 'cult' crossed my mind immediately... I assume we don't hear such a thing in other gospels?

Կրակ the context of this word is used to purify and destroy at the same time. If we look at the process of extracting gold, it needs to be melted down until all the other elements either burn off or separate leaving gold the pure form. At the same time another attribute of fire is destruction. By the Holy Spirit man is able to achieve the destruction of sins that is ungodly in man that keeps separating man from God.

Also in Acts chapter 2:
Coming of the Holy Spirit
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Չդատել ուրիշներին (Ղկ 6.37-38, 41-42)

Որեւէ սրբութիւն շներին մի տւէք...


Okay, I know that "շուն" has been used here metaphorically. But who exactly does it refer to? And what does He mean by "սրբութիւն" here?

***

For this I referred to a spiritual father he said:

"շուն” means those who are against the preaching of the Gospel.

The second part, "սրբութիւն", is for the Word of God which is Holy, because He is Holy so His words are holy too.

Յավհաննէս մկրտչի պատգամաւորները (Ղկ 7.18-35)


Երանի՝ նրան ով իմ պատճառով իր հաւատը չի կորցնում:


The above is what John the Baptist says. Why? Aren't people supposed to gain faith through him as well? Why would anybody lose faith because of him? What wrong was he doing?

Also for this I referred to a spiritual father for the rest of the questions.


The verse you quote is Jesus speaking, not John the Baptist. So, the sentence means, that Jesus is referring to Himself. As for the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees, when they came, instead of believing in Him they had the opposite attitude, why? Because, teachers of the Law and the Pharisees never believed in Him. They had been taught or educated in a certain way, but when there is a preaching in Jesus Christ and its an orthodox preaching other than yours which be maybe contrary, as it was the case with the Pharisees, instead of believing they tried to reject Him.

Շաբաթ օրը յարգելու հարցը (Մր 2.23-28, Ղկ 6.1-5)

... Մարդու Որդին տէրն է շաբաթ օրւայ:


What does the above mean? And from what I understood Christ here encourages absolutely people to do something on Saturdays contrary to to the xxxish law (that of Moses). Right?

He also stated the following:

Jesus tried to explain the correct meaning of Sabbath.
In the OT the word Sabbath means the seventh day, so, which one the seventh day? If your week starts with Monday then the seventh day is Sunday, if your week starts with Tuesday then your seventh day is Monday, so, in the OT Sabbath meant to be the seventh day, and because the week starts with Sunday, and that is why when your read the story of the resurrection there it says on the first day "կիրակի". Second, on that day when God commanded to keep it what? Holy. And what does it mean to keep the day Holy. The word Holy in the Armenian language "սուրբ" means to clean, to separate and to dedicate. So, that day you have to use it a s a clean of thoughts and mind, to separate it to differentiate it from the other days and to dedicate it to God.
Therefore, when Jesus said, the Son of man is the owner of the Sabbath, it means He is the Creator of the days. Secondly, you have to use the day for Godly work and not just having relax.

***

Յիսուսը եւ Բէեղզեբուղը (Մր 3.20-30, Ղկ 11.14-23, 12.10)

Ով որ Մարդու Որդու դէմ խօսք ասի, Աստւած պիտի ների նրան, բայց ով ասի Սուրբ Հոգու դէմ, նա չի ների նրան ոչ այս աշխարհում ոչ էլ հանդերձեալում:


Ոչ ոք չգիտի օրը կամ ժամը (Մր 13.32-37, Ղկ 12.39-40, 17.26-30, 34-35)

Սակայն ոչ ոք չգիտի, թէ երբ է գալու այդ օրը կամ ժամը. Ոչ երկնքի հրեշտակները եւ ոչ էլ Որդին, այլ միայն Հայրը:


In the above two excerpts "Մարդու Որդի" and "Սուրբ Հոգի" (inseparable parts of the Holy Trinity) not only are they being seperated but also a superior status is being attributed to the Holy Spirit. Do I understand correctly?

In this part the issue is not to separate the Trinity from each other, rather the first part when He talks about the Holy Spirit He refers to the Trinity and not only the Holy Spirit, because the Unity of the Trinity is inseparable, so anything against the Holy Spirit it means against the Godhead.
The second issue is about the time, no body knows, it doesn't mean that the Son doesn't know when is the time, but here he presents Himself as in human nature, and especially honoring the Father, though they are equal in divine nature but for Him, as Paul says in Philippians 2.6-11.


***

Քանանացի կնոջ հաւատը (Մր 7.24-30)

Ես միայն Իսրայէլի ժողովրդի կորած ոչխարների համար եմ ուղարկւել:


Why?

In this part Jesus never rejected the others, but according to the context of the passage by saying that he wants to show woman's faith to His disciples, especially when the woman she is Canaanite.

As for king Abgar's story, I think I've read it in Hayots Patmoutyun if I'm not confusing him with the King Tirdad.

King Abgar is the first Armenian King, to whom according to our Armenian tradition, Jesus sent His disciple. King Tiridad is the one who accepted Christianity and made it as a national religion.

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Yeznik,
First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking your time, meditating on the questions and sharing your thoughts.

Կրակ the context of this word is used to purify and destroy at the same time. If we look at the process of extracting gold, it needs to be melted down until all the other elements either burn off or separate leaving gold the pure form. At the same time another attribute of fire is destruction. By the Holy Spirit man is able to achieve the destruction of sins that is ungodly in man that keeps separating man from God.

Also in Acts chapter 2:
Coming of the Holy Spirit
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Clear enough. See, most of the Bible is just crammed with metaphors that sometimes need to be deciphered.

Also for this I referred to a spiritual father for the rest of the questions.


The verse you quote is Jesus speaking, not John the Baptist. So, the sentence means, that Jesus is referring to Himself. As for the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees, when they came, instead of believing in Him they had the opposite attitude, why? Because, teachers of the Law and the Pharisees never believed in Him. They had been taught or educated in a certain way, but when there is a preaching in Jesus Christ and its an orthodox preaching other than yours which be maybe contrary, as it was the case with the Pharisees, instead of believing they tried to reject Him.

Sorry, you are right. It's Christ speaking here.

He also stated the following:

Jesus tried to explain the correct meaning of Sabbath.
In the OT the word Sabbath means the seventh day, so, which one the seventh day? If your week starts with Monday then the seventh day is Sunday, if your week starts with Tuesday then your seventh day is Monday, so, in the OT Sabbath meant to be the seventh day, and because the week starts with Sunday, and that is why when your read the story of the resurrection there it says on the first day "կիրակի". Second, on that day when God commanded to keep it what? Holy. And what does it mean to keep the day Holy. The word Holy in the Armenian language "սուրբ" means to clean, to separate and to dedicate. So, that day you have to use it a s a clean of thoughts and mind, to separate it to differentiate it from the other days and to dedicate it to God.
Therefore, when Jesus said, the Son of man is the owner of the Sabbath, it means He is the Creator of the days. Secondly, you have to use the day for Godly work and not just having relax.

***

I thought so too. (But you know Jews do not do a single thing on Saturdays. I have even seen some of them asking to push the button of the elevator! LOL, pretending they did 'not' do anything on Saturday.)

In this part the issue is not to separate the Trinity from each other, rather the first part when He talks about the Holy Spirit He refers to the Trinity and not only the Holy Spirit, because the Unity of the Trinity is inseparable, so anything against the Holy Spirit it means against the Godhead.
The second issue is about the time, no body knows, it doesn't mean that the Son doesn't know when is the time, but here he presents Himself as in human nature, and especially honoring the Father, though they are equal in divine nature but for Him, as Paul says in Philippians 2.6-11.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here. Christ says Holy Spirit, but you say; He refers to the Trinity. So basically your reasoning is Holy Spirit = The Trinity.

King Abgar is the first Armenian King, to whom according to our Armenian tradition, Jesus sent His disciple. King Tiridad is the one who accepted Christianity and made it as a national religion.

I'll read up on that too.



If you are living in America, I'm sure you've heard of "mega churches" in America. What do you think of them? I sometimes watch their programs on satellite TV and honestly I'm not that impressed, it's like every time I watch it, I get the impression that in between some religious- apparently Christian- lessons they clearly attempt to get the viewer swallow up some politically motivated message and more often than not connected to Israel… so it just raised some suspicion in me regarding these "mega churches". Which branch do they belong to and who are they funded by?

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Clear enough. See, most of the Bible is just crammed with metaphors that sometimes need to be deciphered.

Lucin,
The approach to Scripture must be done in the orthodox manner in order to understand apostolic teachings handed down through the last 2000 years in the Church. A good guide to studying Scripture should also contain Church history, the teachings of the Saints and Church Fathers, good spiritual father(s) and most importantly prayer. Above all the bible is a spiritual book for spiritual guidance.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here. Christ says Holy Spirit, but you say; He refers to the Trinity. So basically your reasoning is Holy Spirit = The Trinity.

The Trinity = Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They are inseparable.

If you are living in America, I'm sure you've heard of "mega churches" in America. What do you think of them? I sometimes watch their programs on satellite TV and honestly I'm not that impressed, it's like every time I watch it, I get the impression that in between some religious- apparently Christian- lessons they clearly attempt to get the viewer swallow up some politically motivated message and more often than not connected to Israel… so it just raised some suspicion in me regarding these "mega churches". Which branch do they belong to and who are they funded by?

I just wanted to add that beside the explanation of the fire metaphor, the rest of the answers were gracefully provided by a spiritual father.

I live in America and just as a general rule I dismiss most of the religious programs on TV. You want to be impressed read Shnorhali, Narekatsi, Voskiberan, to name just a few, who are till this day defenders of orthodoxy and true witnesses of Christ by the examples of their lives and teachings and the humility they expressed.

God through His Church has given us the Saints as teachers. The Saints of the Church have given us the better understanding of Scripture through their, miracles, works and meditations enlightened by the Spirit. They are a “ruler/canon” to be used when studying Scripture.

To state that just by reading the bible and through logic and reasoning achieve the level of understanding as the Saints would clearly be the sin of pride.

How so, is this the sin of pride? This reminds me of Adam in the Garden, rather then waiting to be taught by the Good Teacher about the Tree of Knowledge, he decided to take matters into his own hands and become like the Good Teacher through his own means. So since God has also granted us good teachers, through the Spirit, who are the Saints, let us learn humility through the example of these Saints so we are not tempted to achieve it by our own means.


I hope the answers provided helped, please let me know if you have any more questions.

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Lucin,
The approach to Scripture must be done in the orthodox manner in order to understand apostolic teachings handed down through the last 2000 years in the Church. A good guide to studying Scripture should also contain Church history, the teachings of the Saints and Church Fathers, good spiritual father(s) and most importantly prayer. Above all the bible is a spiritual book for spiritual guidance.





I just wanted to add that beside the explanation of the fire metaphor, the rest of the answers were gracefully provided by a spiritual father.

I live in America and just as a general rule I dismiss most of the religious programs on TV. You want to be impressed read Shnorhali, Narekatsi, Voskiberan, to name just a few, who are till this day defenders of orthodoxy and true witnesses of Christ by the examples of their lives and teachings and the humility they expressed.

To tell you the truth, I haven't familiarized myself yet closely with their works. But if their writings are available today, I'll definitely read them. I knew Shnorhali and Narekatsi but had never heard of 'Voskiberan'.

God through His Church has given us the Saints as teachers. The Saints of the Church have given us the better understanding of Scripture through their, miracles, works and meditations enlightened by the Spirit. They are a “ruler/canon” to be used when studying Scripture.

To state that just by reading the bible and through logic and reasoning achieve the level of understanding as the Saints would clearly be the sin of pride.

How so, is this the sin of pride? This reminds me of Adam in the Garden, rather then waiting to be taught by the Good Teacher about the Tree of Knowledge, he decided to take matters into his own hands and become like the Good Teacher through his own means. So since God has also granted us good teachers, through the Spirit, who are the Saints, let us learn humility through the example of these Saints so we are not tempted to achieve it by our own means.

I hope I'm not percieved that way. Anyway, I hear you but these kind of statements could be understood differently as well; like some tendency to ignore/ avoid everything contradictory or complicated under the guise of 'sin of pride'.

I hope the answers provided helped, please let me know if you have any more questions.

Thank you.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Please watch this interview. It's sad and truly troubling. A mockery of Christ and Christianity. And watch closely this utterly ignorant redneck's subservient demeanor and bloodthirsty rhetoric. All this in the name of the tribal god of the Torah and the Tanakh.

The Hal Lindsey Report: September 5th: http://www.hallindsey.org/index.php?...sk=view&id=293