Mamma li Turchi!

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

especially the Nazi Pope at the moment

I suggest you read his book "Jesus of Nazareth" before expressing such uninformed judgements. It's a good read too.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Nazareth-Pope-Benedict-XVI/dp/0385523416/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259139771&sr=8-1

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Armanen]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

The Pope's were pretty bad, they also were the polar opposites of their belief, had sex with prostitutes (and far worse than that on some reports), and had absolute wealth and power. I am glad that the protestant movement sprang up as a result of the corruption and hypocrisy of the Catholic Church. Even then the Pope's today aren't much better, especially the Nazi Pope at the moment (whatever he says he was a Hitler Youth member and he joined willingly).

The previous pope was not saint either (pardon the pun). A western agent in communist Poland.

[hipeter924]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

No Christian denomination has a monopoly on religious persecution. Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have all done it. I would say, however, that the Catholics have made a refined art of it and have continued their persecutions and pressures of others for much longer. The latest effort is that of Uniatism - to "return" Orthodox and Anglicans "back to the fold." The RC church realizes that once the Anglicans and most Orthodox are Roman Catholic in all but name, most Protestant denominations will be quick to fall in line with the new ecumenical church. I find these developments to be quite ominous, to be honest.

The Pope's were pretty bad, they also were the polar opposites of their belief, had sex with prostitutes (and far worse than that on some reports), and had absolute wealth and power. I am glad that the protestant movement sprang up as a result of the corruption and hypocrisy of the Catholic Church. Even then the Pope's today aren't much better, especially the Nazi Pope at the moment (whatever he says he was a Hitler Youth member and he joined willingly).

[Armanen]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

I don't think the Catholic church will be able to unite the Christian faith under its banner, especially not the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches which have a tradition as old as that of Rome, as in the case of the Armenian Church and the Greek Church for example.

On a side note, 1453 was also the year the Hundred Years war ended, so I do not think the French and english could have helped that much.

[Catharsis]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

It's not just the Fourth Crusade of 1204. The West was pretty clear on the issue all the way up until the fall of 1453: if you do not convert to Roman Catholicism we will let the Muslims destroy you without so much as lifting a finger.

This is strikingly similar to the "uniate" vs. "non-uniate" intrigues that cost us our last kingdom 78 years earlier in 1375. The position of the Papacy was the same during that time as well.

[Catharsis]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

No Christian denomination has a monopoly on religious persecution. Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have all done it. I would say, however, that the Catholics have made a refined art of it and have continued their persecutions and pressures of others for much longer. The latest effort is that of Uniatism - to "return" Orthodox and Anglicans "back to the fold." The RC church realizes that once the Anglicans and most Orthodox are Roman Catholic in all but name, most Protestant denominations will be quick to fall in line with the new ecumenical church. I find these developments to be quite ominous, to be honest.

Indeed, as a good deal of religious denominations tend to do this. Of course, some more than others. I am very happy with the separation of church and state. This is not negation of spiritual or God, to the contrary. This is a realization that the so-called "holy men" very often use religion to their own non-Godly ways to herd and control. There have been some notable exceptions to this. It is done in other spheres also, but science should never be undermined by religion. Looking at the other way, science also does not have all the answers and human beings do have a spiritual dimension to them. I hope we have evolved enough to seek it and find it by ourselves, without "bowing down" and "kissing hands" of gold-clad "intermediaries."

[Merv]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!



This book is well worth reading to see how the West was behaving during the events preceding the fall. There was a consistent policy of refusing to help the Byzantines unless they forced a union with Rome. At the Council of Ferrara/Florcence (1438), they all but forced Roman Catholic doctrine down the throats of the Orthodox. Those clergy in Russia, Serbia, and Bulgaria were staunchly against any union. While some Greek clergy supported union (and some were strongly against it), the people were vehemently against union with the Catholics. Until the end of the Byzantine empire, the Italians (meaning Venetians, Genoese, Papal States, etc.) refused to provide any substantial help unless union with the Roman Catholics was enforced against the Byzantine population. The other Westerners - the Germans, French, English, Spanish, etc. did not even put up a pretense of being willing to help the Byzantines whether they did or didn't convert.

It's not just the Fourth Crusade of 1204. The West was pretty clear on the issue all the way up until the fall of 1453: if you do not convert to Roman Catholicism we will let the Muslims destroy you without so much as lifting a finger.

(Interestingly, the book is also a testament to the peculiar barbarism of the Sultan Mehmet II. Apparently, he had certain bisexual pedophile proclivities and took in whole slews of both male and female children of the notable Constantinopolitan families into his harem. He demanded Lukas Notaras, the Megadux, to give up his son for his pleasure; Lukas refused and he, his nephew, and his son were called to Mehmet. Mehmet ordered him to give up the boys for the harem and Lukas refused. In consequence, Mehmet ordered decapitation on the spot for all three; Lukas requested merely that the boys be killed before him, so that they might not lose courage at the sight of his (Lukas') execution and yield to Mehmet's desires.)

[Merv]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

Good points Hipeter, I just think sadly there is much to blame for all organized religions and denominations including our own (and you did made this point by comparing the amount etc.), who have done a lot of wrong (and a lot of good also) in the name of God. For example, Cathars were off-shoots of earlier Paulician and Tondrakite communes in Armenia, that were persecuted in Armenia by the Armenian Church and fled to first Balkans (and were known there as Bogomils) and throughout much of Europe. The Armenian Church has done a lot of good, but also it has done many things that were very wrong.

No Christian denomination has a monopoly on religious persecution. Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have all done it. I would say, however, that the Catholics have made a refined art of it and have continued their persecutions and pressures of others for much longer. The latest effort is that of Uniatism - to "return" Orthodox and Anglicans "back to the fold." The RC church realizes that once the Anglicans and most Orthodox are Roman Catholic in all but name, most Protestant denominations will be quick to fall in line with the new ecumenical church. I find these developments to be quite ominous, to be honest.

[Catharsis]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

Well the Greek and Armenian churches didn't discriminate or persecuite people or at least as much as their western Catholic and Protestant counterparts, which if you read their history wiped out the Cathar's, and persecuted scientists like Galileo, intellectuals, and anyone who disagreed with the church and its authority.

The Western churches became brutal and authoritarian, whereas the East simply allowed the easy distribution of knowledge and didn't follow the negative western path of Christianity though I must admit the Byzantine Empire took part in crusades, it has to be remembered that the Catholic Pope sacked and plundered Constantinople (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBx8BDJdzfY) in a great betrayal in one of these crusades, laying the easy foundation for the latter Ottoman conquest of the city.

In addition the Venetians and others were at constant warfare with the Byzantine Empire, and only agreed to peace after a humiliating treaty that gave the Venetians a section of Constantinople, not that it helped because they went back to war with Constantinople anyway, and did virtually nothing to help Constantinople when the Ottoman's were attacking the city, it has to be noted that all the Christians who came from western Europe were basically volunteers and not helped by their governments.

Good points Hipeter, I just think sadly there is much to blame for all organized religions and denominations including our own (and you did made this point by comparing the amount etc.), who have done a lot of wrong (and a lot of good also) in the name of God. For example, Cathars were off-shoots of earlier Paulician and Tondrakite communes in Armenia, that were persecuted in Armenia by the Armenian Church and fled to first Balkans (and were known there as Bogomils) and throughout much of Europe. The Armenian Church has done a lot of good, but also it has done many things that were very wrong.

[Catharsis]

Re: Mamma li Turchi!

http://www.iatp.am/resource/artcult/rockart/geghama/gr1/14-20.htm

http://www.iatp.am/resource/artcult/.../book-e.htm#a1

Yes very interesting, there are many parallels, in language, architecture and overall culture. In fact the IE branch in Refrew, Dolgopolski, Atkinson et. al. is listed as Armeno-Greek or Graeco-Armenic if you prefer.