notes and comments

[Eddo211]

Re: elegy

If what some of you guys say is true then why would the Zionists eliminate all the Armenians from their ancestral lands in Ottoman Empire. What was the motive.

There are two reasons given by all these conspiracy theories that I can find.

Baku oil fields……….Zionists gained interests (1880’s) in Russia’s Baku oil fields, built a railroad from Baku to the black sea port of Batum in return for getting supplied for their refineries in Adriatic with cheap Russian oil. This opened up Baku to major world supply. In 1905 the production in Baku came to a complete stop. This was blamed on rebellious Armenians of Baku against the Muslims. So then they made sure that no such thing will ever happen again (they took a big financial losses there) by making sure that no Armenians were left in Baku before the construction of the present day Baku-Ceyhan pipeline. Then they realized that by just removing the Armenians from Baku it will not solve the problem so they decided that eliminating one million is worth to have peace and prosperity for one billion that is crucial to investment and development in Far East.

Second: Many Christians (including their own J ews in holocaust) had to be sacrificed so their god(s) will be pleased and grant them Israel. There is also talk of an evil alien connection (Annunaki) that controls and gives orders to these humans.

OK guys, I am all ears, please explain to me why would Zionism kill off all the Armenian population.............what to weaken the Empire by no more Armenian tax and influence? to remove all Armenian intelligantsia who could spoil their plans? I have also heard what Frank Weltner has been saying about this connection with his presentation to the Armenians, and the deafening silence that followed from the Armenian communities.

BTW, please I am in no way connected to any xxxish organization of any kind. In fact from my experience of J ews, I find them to be a rude self centered A holes, and somewhat racist…..so don’t think I support them, in fact I don’t, but this is too much to swallow at once guys. lol





Correction Guys…..it was Christopher Bjerknes not Frank Weltner. PanArmenian had a four part article on it (with the interview that was done by Hajian from CA). I can’t find his video which is also somewhere in this forum that I saw a while back. Anyway………….

http://www.panarmenian.net/library/eng/?nid=146

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

ArmSurvival: Welcome back late or not. You have been an excellent opponent and I've learned a lot I didn't know about the CUP because of your challenges. It's been a real eye-opener, I assure you. But I still have a problem with your approach and your tone about J ews and question your sweeping interpretations of history. So let me get down to a couple of brass tacks:

You say that numerous journalists and historians say the Young Turks were run and financed by the J ews. Can you give me one quote from a legitimate historian (not a journalist) who says that in so many words? You say that the J ewish members of the CUP leadership were responsible for Turkey's entry into WWI. Do you have any historical evidence that there was a split within the party along J ewish non-J ewish lines about entering the war? Or is this just connecting dots to suit one's preconceived ideas? I would really appreciate the facts, if you have them.

ArmSurvival: Please forget the first question. I found your answer: it is "Emmanuel Carasso, Salem, Sassun, Fardji, Meslah, and Donmeh or crypto-
J ews like Djavid Bey and the Baldji family", taken from Bjerknes, the London Times Vienna correspondent, etc. But please answer the second question about the decision to enter the War being supposedly railroaded through by the J ews.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: elegy

You say that numerous journalists and historians say the Young Turks were run and financed by the J ews. Can you give me one quote from a legitimate historian (not a journalist) who says that in so many words?

Besides Bjerkens and the Times correspondents that you already mentioned, Robert William Seton-Watson was head of the Royal Historical Society in Britain, and he explicitly stated that the brains and finance of the Young Turk party came from wealthy J ews and Donmehs. There is always a chance that claims like this can be deliberate misinformation. However, all the contemporary London Times reports from their correspondents confirm this notion. Even Zionist historians admitted the heavy J ewish role in the CUP.

You say that the J ewish members of the CUP leadership were responsible for Turkey's entry into WWI. Do you have any historical evidence that there was a split within the party along J ewish non-J ewish lines about entering the war? Or is this just connecting dots to suit one's preconceived ideas? I would really appreciate the facts, if you have them.

I haven’t come across any sources that show there was an ideological split between J ewish and non-J ewish members of the party. I’m certain I haven’t come across the majority of sources that deal with the entire Zionist role in the genocide. However, I don’t think a lack of a split undermines the theory that Zionists played a large role, and were one of the most aggressive endorsers of Turkey’s entry into WWI. There were even Armenian members of the CUP such as Haladjian effendi. As far as I know these people were either (like in Haladjian’s case) dupes who actually thought the CUP was a progressive movement, or completely willing to carry out the plans of whoever was calling the shots because of promised or perceived rewards for doing so.

Unfortunately the study of history is much like putting together a mosaic—There are a lot of small pieces scattered everywhere that must be put together in the right sequence in order to clearly see the bigger picture. The Zionist role in the genocide is a very underground topic that has been studied for decades, yet there are differing viewpoints as to what the exact details were, and there are many sources that have not been uncovered or given the proper analysis, and those that have are not being fitted into the bigger picture that we already know. The problem is that people are not willing to publicly talk about this issue for a variety of reasons, and so there is no mainstream representation or study of this topic. So any progress made is in small increments and is stuck on the fringes of the historical sphere. The proof is in the pudding—I didn’t even know about this topic a year ago, you didn’t know it a month ago, and there are many other Hayrenasers who haven’t the slightest clue of any of these events or facts. What’s ironic though, is that we all know about the Turkish, Kurdish and German involvement in such minute and gruesome detail. Then again Turks, Kurds and Germans do not have numerous immensely wealthy banking dynasties that lived before, during and after the genocide, and who still wield large influence into the present day. Remember, history is written by the winners.

If what some of you guys say is true then why would the Zionists eliminate all the Armenians from their ancestral lands in Ottoman Empire. What was the motive.

In my amateur opinion their goal was to free up Palestine and balkanize the near east in order to guarantee the security of a future Zionist state. They first tried to buy Palestine from the Sultan through the Rothschilds. When they saw that the Sultan was not willing to sell Palestine even for an enormous sum, they decided that the only way to get Palestine was by working towards the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire in order to have a favorable post-war settlement. They did this by Balkanizing the Ottoman Empire by advocating Turkish nationalism while simultaneously having a Muslim vs. Christian character to the conflict so that all the minority groups in the empire would create their own conflicting national doctrines and rise up in arms. And by creating a religious character to the war alongside the national character, it helped to draw the attention of world powers, such as the Zionist ally Great Britain. By destroying the Ottoman identity and Balkanizing the near east they freed up Palestine, for which they received a mandate from the British in 1917.

Some contemporary knowledge that makes this theory extremely plausible is that even today, Zionists and their American Neo-conservative buddies try to create a fake Muslim vs. Christian dichotomy in order to fuel wars and balkanize reasonably powerful countries like they already did in Iraq and they wish to do in Iran. The balkanization of the near east is in the interests of Israel and its western allies, who can more easily control unruly populations if they are artificially divided and in direct competition with one another.

OK guys, I am all ears, please explain to me why would Zionism kill off all the Armenian population.............what to weaken the Empire by no more Armenian tax and influence? to remove all Armenian illuminati who could spoil their plans?

Its easy for us to forget by looking at Armenians nowadays, but during the Ottoman Empire the Armenians as a group were at the vanguard of civilization. For all our faults, we were still one of the most advanced and cultured nations in the entire world. Also, our interests were in opposition to the J ews in the empire—Armenians were the chief merchant class in many regions, and had abundant numbers of doctors and lawyers, and had connections with people in many other countries. We also had a certain level of control of the finances in both the Ottoman Empire and Persia at that time. In short, Armenians had a very high proportion of intelligentsia. It was apparent to the Young Turks that the people with the best ability of conducting a counter-revolution against the CUP were the Armenians.

Although, there was one factor that no one took into consideration—the general indifference of the Armenian population to these events and their lack of a will to fight for their independence at whatever cost. The real tragedy is that if Armenians rebelled en masse, we would have won our independence in most of our homeland, but most people were not willing to fight. This is in large part because of the lies circulated by the Young Turks that Armenians would be kept safe by Turkish authorities if they followed orders and that if Armenians resisted in any way it would mean their destruction (when in actuality the opposite was true and was proven so). There were many liars (agents for the Young Turks) who were circulating lies that if the Armenians simply did nothing and got slaughtered, that the powerful Christian nations of the world would come to their rescue and give them a homeland. But you have to remember, if we actually fought en masse like the Serbs and Greeks, we would have prevented the genocide for the most part and gained our independence… So in the eyes of the CUP, by destroying the Armenians, they were destroying the group most capable of successfully resisting their plans. The ethnic Turks, who were already extremely paranoid of Armenians, had their paranoia exploited by the CUP, and the CUP was thus able to successfully divert attention away from themselves and their sinister plans by focusing the attention of Turks and Kurds onto Armenians. While all the gentiles were busy eating each other up, the Zionists were free to carry through their plans. Remember, the J ews in the Young Turk party pretended to be the most outspoken and nationalistic Turks. Thats the preferred tactic of Zionists-- masquerading as gentiles in order to manipulate and undermine them.

Also, by destroying the Armenians (or at least attempting to do so) they practically forced all other groups in the empire to rebel if they hadn’t already done so. It created massive disorder throughout the near east by literally uprooting entire societies and creating huge power vacuums. It also further antagonized Islam with the west and convinced powerful nations that the Ottoman Empire would need to be partitioned (aka balkanization). So by destroying the Armenians they achieved many objectives at once. The Baku oilfields are another possible and legitimate goal. Although I still believe the seizing of Palestine and the balkanization of the near east was the main objective which would make all other objectives possible.

Correction Guys…..it was Christopher Bjerknes not Frank Weltner. PanArmenian had a four part article on it (with the interview that was done by Hajian from CA). I can’t find his video which is also somewhere in this forum that I saw a while back. Anyway………….

The interesting thing is that Christopher Bjerknes is a Norweigan J ew. Many of the sources I have used in this thread I discovered when reading through his work (which is rather poorly written in my opinion, but uses a lot of invaluable sources).

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

ArmSurvival, you say:

"I haven’t come across any sources that show there was an ideological split between
J ewish and non-J ewish members of the party. I’m certain I haven’t come across the majority of sources that deal with the entire Zionist role in the genocide. However, I don’t think a lack of a split undermines the theory that Zionists played a large role, and were one of the most aggressive endorsers of Turkey’s entry into WWI."


Nice try, but you flat-out did not answer my question about your assertion of J ewish members of the CUP railroading Turkey into the War. The failure to provide evidence on this specific point is the type of weakness that pervades your entire argument. I mean, you paint a very sweeping and fascinating picture, but it's mostly held together by impassioned assumptions that don't hold up to close scrutiny.
Let me cite one example of a fundamental flaw in your model: Why would Emmanuel Carasso, an Italian J ew who immigrated to Turkey and made it his home, want to destroy Turkey, where he eventually made millions from being
a high level functionary. Because he wanted to go live in Palestine? ? Or ask the same question about any of the other J ews in the CUP, men whose ancestry in Turkey went back centuries, who swam like barracudas in the Turkish cultural sea, who were totally at home there. To be pioneers in Palestine after they destroyed Turkey? Give me a break! OK, let's say Zionism was a factor in their consciousness. It must have been. But you're putting too fine a point on it. You're trying to get more mileage out of it than common sense allows. Yes, ALL of the CUP were heinous war criminals, including the J ewish ones. But it's my belief that they were not fulfilling some Machiavellian J EWISH plan, but turning their backs on J ewish values, like the rest of their atheistic buddies, Turks, Pomacks, Albanians, or whatever who stood to gain by destroying the Armenians in their homeland. . . . And I don't share your writing off the spirit of resistance among the Armenians. History shows otherwise, wherever Armenians had the chance.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Wednesday, December 23, 2009
**********************************
NOTES / COMMENTS
*****************************
“If he speaks as if he were somebody, let's treat him like a nobody to bring him down to our own level.”
*
The secret of success consists not in cultivating your own garden but in inventing it.
*
You can tell he has a college degree because he uses words like dichotomy, existential, and paradigm.
*
Ideas? If you have the money, you can hire philosophers (provided they are not Marxists) and theologians who don't take the Scriptures literally and believe Capital to be a blessing from god.
*
The world has no interest in someone who knows a great deal about a great many things. The world is more interested and more willing to reward someone who knows everything about one thing.
*
If the liquid in the glass is poison, it makes no difference whether it is half empty or half full.
*
A religion that emphasizes truth or dogma over love and charity, is an invention of the devil.
#

[Eddo211]

Re: elegy

...........their goal was to free up Palestine and balkanize the near east in order to guarantee the security of a future Zionist state.


Its easy for us to forget by looking at Armenians nowadays, but during the Ottoman Empire the Armenians as a group were at the vanguard of civilization. For all our faults, we were still one of the most advanced and cultured nations in the entire world. Also, our interests were in opposition to the J ews in the empire—Armenians were the chief merchant class in many regions, and had abundant numbers of doctors and lawyers, and had connections with people in many other countries. We also had a certain level of control of the finances in both the Ottoman Empire and Persia at that time. In short, Armenians had a very high proportion of intelligentsia. It was apparent to the Young Turks that the people with the best ability of conducting a counter-revolution against the CUP were the Armenians.

… So in the eyes of the CUP, by destroying the Armenians, they were destroying the group most capable of successfully resisting their plans.

Also, by destroying the Armenians (or at least attempting to do so) they practically forced all other groups in the empire to rebel if they hadn’t already done so. It created massive disorder throughout the near east by literally uprooting entire societies and creating huge power vacuums. It also further antagonized Islam with the west and convinced powerful nations that the Ottoman Empire would need to be partitioned (aka balkanization). So by destroying the Armenians they achieved many objectives at once. The Baku oilfields are another possible and legitimate goal. Although I still believe the seizing of Palestine and the balkanization of the near east was the main objective which would make all other objectives possible.
......

If their motives was as you stated above then I still see no reason for them to uproot/kill over a million old men, women and children who would be irrelevant after destroying the so called Armenian threat from the intelligentsia and securing all men of military age…………….this type of cleansing is messy business and it complicates matters and would not work toward the said objectives. Sorry I cannot buy this, there needs to be more proof.

Furthermore this theory paints Turkey as innocent victims that they claim to be today and the Armenians as a thriving society and living the great life under the Ottoman Empire with no sense of awareness or self determination. Also as stated before officially subscribing to this belief (Zionism guilty Genocide) will severely hurt the Armenian cause, even if by a chance there is truth in it to certain degree, which is very doubtful in my view.

If you look at the politics of Ankara compared to Tel Aviv you can see that they are nothing alike, in fact their cooperation has been in very shaky grounds lately.
AIPAC blocks AG bill in order to keep Turkey as an ally of Israel that lives in a sea of Muslims and uses it as ace card against Turkey (as do other countries).

[Jos]

Re: elegy

[QUOTE=ArmSurvival;287882]

Its easy for us to forget by looking at Armenians nowadays, but during the Ottoman Empire the Armenians as a group were at the vanguard of civilization. For all our faults, we were still one of the most advanced and cultured nations in the entire world. Also, our interests were in opposition to the J ews in the empire—Armenians were the chief merchant class in many regions, and had abundant numbers of doctors and lawyers, and had connections with people in many other countries. We also had a certain level of control of the finances in both the Ottoman Empire and Persia at that time. In short, Armenians had a very high proportion of intelligentsia. It was apparent to the Young Turks that the people with the best ability of conducting a counter-revolution against the CUP were the Armenians.

This is not an understatement. Actually, Armenians, Greeks and j*ws were all particularly active in the running of the Ottoman Empire. It's arguable that the Armenians to some extent controlled important functions of the Empire by proxy. Just recently I was amazed to find out that an Armenian delegation in which the Dashnaks played an important role, had met with the CUP (Committee of Union and Progess) i.e. the Young Turks in Paris in 1902 where it had been decided that the overthrow of the Sultan was mutually agreed upon. The friendly relations with the Dashnaks and the Young Turks continued well up to 1909 where after a divergence in policies became firmly established, possibly as a result of entry of Balkan officers joining the CUP and increasing German involvement with the Ottoman military.

[Eddo211]

Re: elegy

[QUOTE=Jos;287905]

This is not an understatement. Actually, Armenians, Greeks and j*ws were all particularly active in the running of the Ottoman Empire. It's arguable that the Armenians to some extent controlled important functions of the Empire by proxy. Just recently I was amazed to find out that an Armenian delegation in which the Dashnaks played an important role, had met with the CUP (Committee of Union and Progess) i.e. the Young Turks in Paris in 1902 where it had been decided that the overthrow of the Sultan was mutually agreed upon. The friendly relations with the Dashnaks and the Young Turks continued well up to 1909 where after a divergence in policies became firmly established, possibly as a result of entry of Balkan officers joining the CUP and increasing German involvement with the Ottoman military.

I read somewhere that if you lived in the Ottoman Empire and you wanted a very good purchase, a fair deal, a low interest rate loan then you looked for an Armenian. Turks were the best customers.

In regards to the rest of what you said.............we underestimated what they were capable of.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Thursday, December 24, 2009
**********************************
WE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD
************************************************** *
We are few.
We are weak.
We are vulnerable.
Therefore, we are divided.
Which is like saying:
“I think.
Therefore I am not.”
*
In our environment,
the devils come disguised as angels.
I once heard a bishop say:
“We are for unity.
It's the opposition that is against it.”
Did he believe what he said?
I am not sure.
But his audience did,
on the grounds that God does not lie.
Neither does a man of God.
*
Hitler knew what he was talking about when he said,
“The bigger the lie, the more believable it will be.”
*
We are divided.
So what if we cease to exist?
*
Cease to exist? No way!
We have existed for thousands of years.
We must be doing something right.
You call a thousand years of subservience to scum existence?
You call a series of massacres and a genocide existence?
I call it worse than death.
*
Liars are not born but made
and they are made by dupes.
Who is guiltier, a liar or his audience of dupes?
*
You can rate the IQ of a nation
by the lies of its sermonizers and speechifiers.
*
We have two kinds of mortal enemies:
those who want to kill us
and those who want us to commit suicide.
We never had it so good.
#

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

who qualifies as a politically ambitious person?
Anyone who believs in politically motivated assertions.
Such a man has a political brain.
i don't know of any intellectually responsible person who would single out a race, a nation or tribe, and ascribe evil or guilt on it
thus exonerating the rest of mankind.
we all swim in the same sh*t!