Government

[hagopn]

Re: Government

As to the Armenians: Ultimately I am not defending the error of not adjusting, at all, to the imperialistic context and organizing against it. They certainly should have changed their "orenk" to accommodate internally, but the type of society that they had inherited was very old and set in its way. The Nakharars were very strong in their traditional mindsets and considered their autonomy to be more important than any other factor. It is actually more evidence to demonstrate just how old of a culture it was and how settled it was in its extremely ancient political model. Some consider the acts of the Artsruni or the Suni treasonous, but my opinion is that they were being good Armenians according to the norms to which they adhered for millennia, not centuries, but many millennia. They grew via that tradition. The Syunik didn't want to get involved in a war in 451 that was about the interests of the two empires, but was forced, perhaps, to make a choice, a gamble, and whether or not Vassak was correct is up for grabs. The point is that he made an independent choice. It was almost the same situation as the Cold War. The choice was made by the Syunik, which still earns Vassak the ire of the "federalists" who wanted to have Byzantine/Roman sponsorship. The 4th century onwards deserves more scrutiny that we give it in terms of what the actual context was. Obviously it was not until much later, despite the "inability" to go to the Chalcedon, that the Armenian Church had true autonomy from the Byzantine, and, my opinion is that there was a civil war from day one of adopting the Christian religion as the "state mandated" religion which also resulted in massive exiles of entire non-Christian principalities and their entourage to various outlying parts of the Byzantine empire, particularly the banks of the Danube, even Thrace/Macedonia, from where we probably had the eventual "blessing" of the Romanized Armenian dynasties who took control the Byzantine court. "Federalism" per se was cause for massive loss of Armenian tribes, principalities, and that loss also recoiled when the Arevortik were later on fighting on the Arab side and who perhaps even formed the core of the Syrian Islamic population. Not enough research is done on this, but Seta Dadoyan laid quite a foundation on this later Muslim era I mention.

[hagopn]

Re: Government

The US is still not the best example and had the flaws in its constitution that allowed for this centralization to occur. Again, the reason was a perpetual war status, and an example was the Civil War that was really a battle about "preserving the Union". Whether the American "patriots" like it or not, it is the equiavlent of a Napoleon like person in the colonial setting fighting to preserve the European Unity. Imagine a war be waged about to "preserve" the European Union. It would seem absurd, but the Civil War was not far from that. A serious poli-sci scholar will never consider abolitionism as the driving force for the Civil War. Originally, the states that ratified the constitution took a long time, and the last state to ratify, Rhode Island had serious reservations of even joining a federation type of government. The main concern was that too much power was going to be given to the federal government, but that was the whole idea behind the Federalist Papers composed and the debates that ensued. Jefferson "lost" the debate due to a vote, not on its intellectual merits. Jefferson's confederalism was actually nullified with the Federalist idea at the onset, but much of his ideas did survive, enough to afford enough private sector freedom to cause for a strong and innovative economy. If the Jeffersonian idea would have been adopted, there would have been a safeguard against adopting another "perpetual war" stance. Ironically, the Civil War was more impetus to centralize, and the US never looked back. It was a war every decade or so, and the "war department" (they were even more candid in those days) budget kept on growing until it became uncontrollable to such a degree that even Eisenhower, a former general, sounded a public alarm, to no avail. It's a bit of a complicated affair that involves many ambitious players, domestic and international, that corrupted the system and used the Federalist level to turn this into an absolutely centralized oligarchy, something closer to the Roman imperial model. Jefferson wanted something closer to what is now known as the Celtic model that I spoke of. You are saying that they would not have survived the pressure of empires. I disagree. They would have done fine. They would have mustered the resources when necessary, when necessary and would have the legal means to divest from the "war machine" without any legal allowance for the perpetuation of the war machine.

[Haykakan]

Re: Government

Yes i agree with "Armenians just did not like central rule, but they were very well governed and lived well, better than their neighbors on average." but this does not solve the issue we started discussing in the other thread. A society or a way of life may indeed be a somewhat of a good fit for some people but how do you make it strong enough to survive? Loose federations do stand the test of time. They get overrun or corrupted just like the USA today. The founding fathers of USA believed like you that a loose federation was the best way to go and that peoples rights are paramount but look it lasted a mere 200 years. Much like democracy the loose federation idea is only good on paper and fails to survive the test of time.

[hagopn]

Re: Government

As much as I have a distaste for semantics, "Narcissism" in this is a variable, a placeholder term for independent, free willed, individual with powers of sovereignty and so on.

The form of government is determined by the manner with which the nation or society itself was formed and the character of that society. In the case of non-imperial nationalities such as ours, the character of the society will turn it into whatever it wants on condition that it is a homogenous and free willed society. This was the case for Armenians, and it has stayed much the same, as the Armenian character has changed little, which seems to be a source of frustration to many a scant observer of history. It seemed to be a source of frustration for Tiberius. It seems to be a shock for the UNDPE sponsors when they wrote their 1994 report on the conditions of Armenia and its "highly integrated society that enables it to survive despite the most adverse economic conditions." Those are the words the UNDPE used for Armenians. Armenians have a tendency to govern themselves quite well without the orthodox form of government in place. They are natural confederates. I have adopted this term since 1993 upon reading a host of historical sources on Armenia. Armenians just did not like central rule, but they were very well governed and lived well, better than their neighbors on average.

[Haykakan]

Re: Government

"The question is valid, and the short answer is to have a strong enough protection of personal autonomy while still keeping in sight the perils of the world we live in. You will never maintain the loyalty of a "narcissist" through a dictatorship."
Narcissists by definition are only loyal to themselves (if even that) thus their loyalty to me is a moot point. I have a very different view of when it comes to the matter of government. I am much less concerned about its form and much more preoccupied with the motives of those doing the governing. In my lifetime alone i have witnessed both good and bad Democracies, I have read about bad and good Monarchs, Dictators, Autocrats. It seems that the form of the government is much less important then the system of motives within those governments.

[Haykakan]

One of the important and interesting topics being discussed today is the role of government in society. The following video discusses why we need government and then it discusses different ideas of what the government should be based on. FYI if you let the video run once and refresh it you can skip the commercials.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm8asJxdcds&NR=1