Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    'Confessions' under Torture

    The American Senator, Joseph McCarthy, in a statement given to the American Press on May 20th, 1949, drew attention to the following cases of torture to secure such confessions. In the prison of the Swabisch Hall, he stated, officers of the S.S. Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler were flogged until they were soaked in blood, after which their sexual organs were tr@mpled on as they lay prostrate on the ground. As in the notorious Malmedy Trials of private soldiers, the prisoners were hoisted in the air and beaten until they signed the confessions demanded of them. On the basis of such "confessions" extorted from S.S. Generals Sepp Dietrich and Joachim Paiper, the Leibstandarte was convicted as a "guilty organisation". S.S. General Oswald Pohl, the economic administrator of the concentration camp system, had his face smeared with faeces and was subsequently beaten until he supplied his confession. In dealing with these cases, Senator McCarthy told the Press: "I have heard evidence and read documentary proofs to the effect that the accused persons were beaten up, maltreated and physically tortured by methods which could only be conceived in sick brains. They were subjected to mock trials and pretended executions, they were told their families would be deprived of their ration cards. All these things were carried out with the approval of the Public Prosecutor in order to secure the psychological atmosphere necessary for the extortion of the required confessions. If the United States lets such acts committed by a few people go unpunished, then the whole world can rightly criticise us severely and forever doubt the correctness of our motives and our moral integrity." The methods of intimidation described were repeated during trials at Frankfurt-am-Mein and at Dachau, and large numbers of Germans were convicted for atrocities on the basis of their admissions. The American Judge Edward L. van Roden, one of the three members of the Simpson Army Commission which was subsequently appointed to investigate the methods of justice at the Dachau trials, revealed the methods by which these admissions were secured in the Washington Daily News, January 9th, 1949. His account also appeared in the British newspaper, the Sunday Pictorial, January 23rd, 1949. The methods he described were: "Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoners finger-nails; knocking out of teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near starvation rations." Van Roden explained: "The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four and five months . . . The investigators would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses . . . All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was standard operating procedure with our American investigators." The "American" investigators responsible (and who later functioned as the prosecution in the trials) were: Lt.-Col. Burton F. Ellis (chief of the War Crimes Committee) and his assistants, Capt. Raphael Shumacker, Lt. Robert E. Byrne, Lt. William R. Perl, Mr. Morris Ellowitz, Mr. Harry Thon, and Mr. Kirschbaum. The legal adviser of the court was Col. A. H. Rosenfeld. The reader will immediately appreciate from their names that the majority of these people were "biased on racial grounds" in the words of Justice Wenersturm - that is, were Jewish, and therefore should never have been involved in any such investigation. Despite the fact that "confessions" pertaining to the extemination of the Jews were extracted under these conditions, Nuremberg statements are still regarded as conclusive evidence for the Six Million by writers like Reitlinger and others, and the illusion is maintained that the Trials were both impartial and impeccably fair. When General Taylor, the Chief Public Prosecutor, was asked where he had obtained the figure of the Six Million, he replied that it was based on the confession of S.S. General Otto Ohlendorf. He, too, was tortured and his case is examined below. But as far as such "confessions" in general are concerned, we can do no better than quote the British Sunday Pictorial when reviewing the report of Judge van Roden: "Strong men were reduced to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their prosecutors."

    Comment


    • #32
      Hold on there a sec, Dan. Most of what you are saying makes sense. But toward the end you you start saying it is a fact that there was no plan to exterminate while previously pointing out that all of the circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimony being provided for the exterminationist case doesn't prove anything. Your evidence shoots holes in their argument, but you haven't proven anything either. You should try to stay a little more objective about this, lest you blind yourself to negative evidence.

      Comment


      • #33
        But toward the end you you start saying it is a fact that there was no plan to exterminate while previously pointing out that all of the circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimony being provided for the exterminationist case doesn't prove anything. Your evidence shoots holes in their argument, but you haven't proven anything either.
        I am not trying to prove that the holocaust didn't take place by saying that the eyewitness testimonies were false. I can prove, using scientific studies, that there were no gas chambers, no burning pits, etc. And unless they present proof that the burning and gassing did happen, their position is null and void, regardless of what might've been going on in Hitler's mind, and regardless of attempts to INTERPRET HIS THOUGHTS. They have no evidence of what was going on in their minds. And even if they were anti-semetic, that would still not prove that they committed the crime. If I think about killing someone because I hate them so much, it doesn't mean I killed them, and it certainly doesn't give the court any right to charge me with murder.

        Comment


        • #34
          In addition, a note about the confessions - if the confessions were indeed factual, what would explain the fact that science has proven that there couldn't have been any gassing, burning pits, such large-scale cremations? Are you saying that the "confessions" provide better proof than science? Not to mention the immigration records...

          The 6 million lie existed during WWI. It was fed to the "confessors" during the tortures. The gas chamber claims were also fed to them, since there is no proof that they did indeed exist.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by loseyourname Your evidence shoots holes in their argument, but you haven't proven anything either.
            As a fan of logic you should know why you should not have said that.

            Also, I do not think anyone has mentioned that, in all of these camps, as far as I know, there were homosexuals and P.O.W.'s from Russia and France. The proposed deaths of the Jews are in addition to those of the other populations and in the large camps, the rate at which they were killed and disposed of is mathematically impossible. It takes a long time to burn a body. And it would take 24 hours to kill a human being in a gas chamber designed to fumigate clothing.

            Comment


            • #36
              Post more links about the cremation chambers and gassing and burning pits if you have anything. I'll look into that, and of course I'll check out your other links. I'll look for something supporting the other side, too.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by dusken Also, I do not think anyone has mentioned that, in all of these camps, as far as I know, there were homosexuals and P.O.W.'s from Russia and France.
                I hoped this thread could be contained only to discussion of what happened to the Jews, but that fact has been brought up elsewhere.

                The proposed deaths of the Jews are in addition to those of the other populations and in the large camps, the rate at which they were killed and disposed of is mathematically impossible. It takes a long time to burn a body. And it would take 24 hours to kill a human being in a gas chamber designed to fumigate clothing.
                Dan has gone about this quite a bit, but it's really beside the point, at least to me. What I was hoping to get at is a discussion of whether or not there was a planned extermination of European Jews. It doesn't matter how many were killed, or how they were killed. Those are just details.

                Comment


                • #38
                  What I was hoping to get at is a discussion of whether or not there was a planned extermination of European Jews. It doesn't matter how many were killed, or how they were killed. Those are just details.
                  I thought we were talking about whether the holocaust took place or not. Whether it was planned or not is irrelevant, and I already stated that it has no factual bases. So the question now is: were the eyewitness accounts of "gas chambers" correct? Did it really happen? Did the Nazis exterminate Jews (IF they had any plan to do so?) Hence why I bring in scientific studies about gas chambers, etc.

                  Again, loseyourname, we can go around in circles about this, but the Wannsee conference is the trump card exterminationists use. But this is far from being proven. That sentence in the minutes of the "conference" is unclear at best and doesn't prove anything. Having said that, the existence of camps doesn't prove that there were extermination plans either. There are many reasons and possible explanations for why Jews were put in camps. Again, that's only speculation. and so are the claims that they had intentions of exterminating Jews. As long as there is no written documents that clearly show that they had talked about and planned in detail about the exterminations, the claims are invalid. They don't qualify as proof.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by loseyourname What I was hoping to get at is a discussion of whether or not there was a planned extermination of European Jews. It doesn't matter how many were killed, or how they were killed. Those are just details.
                    Ok. You are hoping to uncover, in an Armenian forum void of historians in the 21st century, what the unwritten motivations and thoughts of certain individuals were 60 years ago. Good luck. And you never said anything about what you were hoping to occur. Reread your first post. You instigated and it happened. These are the natural reactions.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Let's not go off-topic here.

                      We were talking about the historicity of the jewish holocaust, in all its aspects.

                      We're not talking about psychology here. We're talking about scientific proofs and factual statistics of population numbers and emigration data.

                      Also, I am surprised that this thread is going quite well, so far, at least. I hope it wouldn't get locked.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X