Determinism vs. Indeterminism

[sSsflamesSs]

Here's a little something we discussed in my philosophy class today that I found rather intriguing. The topic affects every living thing in the universe, so you might be interested also.

Actions are a part of everyday life. Whether it be writing your dissertation or sitting on the toilet, each action has an impact on the universe. It changes the universe, no matter how minute the change, into a state that was different than before the action took place.

An event, defined as a change in the state of the world, can be the result of one or more actions. Events have taken place since the creation of the universe. What do all events have in common?

There are two theories as to why things happen:

1. Determinism: every event is causally determined, meaning, given the cause and given the laws of nature, the event had to occur.

2. Indeterminism: not every event is causally determined.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the two are complete opposites, and that one cannot exist with the other.

OK, here's where I was going toward...

Determinism:
1. If an action is determined, then the agent couldn’t have done otherwise. (The agent could be anyone who is performing the action.)
2. If the agent couldn’t have done otherwise, then the action wasn’t free. (The action wasn’t free is the same as saying the agent was not free to do as s/he pleased.)
3. So, if an action is determined, then the action isn’t free.

Indeterminism:
1. If an action isn’t determined, then the action is random.
2. If an action is random, then the action is not under the agent's control.
3. If the action isn’t under the agent’s control, then the action isn’t free.
4. So, if an action isn’t determined, then the action isn’t free.

EVERY ACTION IS EITHER DETERMINED OR NOT DETERMINED, BUT NOT BOTH.

CONCLUSION: NO ACTION IS FREE.

If you need me to clarify any of the steps, I'll be glad to do so.

So, my question is, do you agree with any of this? My professor said that the class is going to analyze essays disproving the above argument, yet I myself don’t see anything wrong with it thus far. It is rather disturbing to think that NOTHING is under our control, but nevertheless, I agree with it. My opinion might change as the course progresses. I will keep you posted.

Thanks for bearing with me - that's one long-ass post. I believe it's my longest one.

[jahannam]

okay...
1- I totally agree with the fact that we don't have control over things (and that's not unfortunate unless you have ego problems)...
BUT it's not because of some "determinism" theory...
it's Fate that determines the destiny of things...

2- since when do we treat "actions" as people ?
can non living things be "free"?

[sSsflamesSs]

1. Ego problems? I wouldn't say that. It is unfortunate because we have no power to change the future. Imagine that you were born in India under the caste system, in the lowest of the lowest of the rung of the ladder, so to speak. Would you feel comfortable with the fact that you would be treated like dirt for the rest of your life just because your crappy life has been layed out right in front of you with no room to change things? Frankly, I'd go insane.

Jahannam, maybe you didn't read clearly. The Determinism Theory differs in no way from your idea of fate. They are the one and the same thing, from what I see so far.

2. We don't treat actions as people. That is why I wrote the little note at the end to clarify what I meant.

2. If the agent couldn’t have done otherwise, then the action wasn’t free. (The action wasn’t free is the same as saying the agent was not free to do as s/he pleased.)

[omniscient]

i havent posted in a while but i wanted to reply to you on this one flames. just wanted to say remember we had a similar topic like this way back and i said think of it as if your in the middle of the ocean on a raft the waves can take you or you can start paddling (it was a lot more detailed then that but i just wanted to see if you remembered it) that was what i thought about determinism. if you dont remember it let me know and try to search for it and copy and paste it, bye

[sSsflamesSs]

Hmm, I don't recall. So please Omni, if it's not too much trouble, do copy/paste the link. Thanks.

[surferarmo]

We have had several posts converning this philosophy. You should know since you never have anything better to do than go on this forum. We're over it.

[omniscient]

i checked it , and it wasnt that long, it was in another forum that i posted something about it but i will. but this is the one from this forum, and the topic was a little different...

"just think of determinism and free will co-existing and well have fewer problems lol. for example: you are in the middle of the ocean in a raft. now the currents will take you to a determined place if you do not do anything about it or you can paddle against the currents and go to another location."

that was it , ill try to find the other one

[sSsflamesSs]

We have had several posts converning this philosophy. You should know since you never have anything better to do than go on this forum. We're over it.

Surfer, why so bitter? Girls mistreating you in real life?

You post on the forum just as much as I do. Don't be a hypocrite. It's not flattering.
__________________________________________________ __________

Omni, I appreciate your help. We might've touched up on this matter in another thread, but the whole point of this particular thread was to look at the topic in more detail.

[jahannam]

allright
if

The action wasn’t free is the same as saying the agent was not free to do as s/he pleased.

then why is the GRAND clonclusion of this theory worded as...
no ACTION is free...
it should be no HUMAN BEING is free...
and of course we're not...
just cuz America's fed us phrases like "it's a free country" doesn't mean we're free.
and the fact that we're arguing over freedom and whether or not it exists merely makes us slaves of freedom really.

[patlajan]

I'll buy you a one way ticket to anywhere you want to go, if you promise not to come back.