If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

[KanadaHye]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Armenians, whether they like to believe it or not, are themselves descended from an amalgamation of races who mostly came from Anatolia and the Caucasus, but which spoke different languages from different language families, and had very different cultures from one another.

As with everything, it's always back to the chicken and the egg. It takes people to create a culture and that culture breeds a certain identity.

[jgk3]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Armenians, whether they like to believe it or not, are themselves descended from an amalgamation of races who mostly came from Anatolia and the Caucasus, but which spoke different languages from different language families, and had very different cultures from one another. With our conversion to Christianity, this changed, as all these diverse localities were evangelized to the Armenian faith, and given our language, while their own, along with their local customs and pagan beliefs, were persecuted. This happened a long time ago during the 5th century, 2 centuries after our official conversion to Christianity. It was the century that our literary language was born, and was creating an Armenian nation as Assyrian clerics who conducted church service in their incomprehensible language, were pushed out of our churches and replaced by Armenian ones. With the power of our written language, Christianity was no longer a foreign religion, the stage was set for it to become the religion all Armenians would look towards for their basis of identification.

Today, in the diaspora, Armenians find themselves in an awkward situation, because they no longer live in this homeland as children of a collective basis for identification. It is up to Armenians whether they wish to keep their identification, handed down over the centuries and in many cases intensified by periods of conflict and persecution, or, if they wish to identify with their new surroundings in an alien world. Both cases happen quite often. There is a third case however: the Armenian will go through both previous cases and arrive at their own individualized stance that sees culture not as something they belong to or serve, but as something they have inside of them, to be used as they wish. These people are free to interact with any culture they can relate with, they are perhaps what one would call "cosmopolitan".

In my opinion, just as it did not matter what race one was during the 5th century when previous non-Armenians were being evangelized and eventually lived with a centralized, literary Armenian language with which they could all identify, something similar happens if an odar wants to join the community today by attending a local church and wants to learn the language, except that the decision for a mature person to attend church is not forced by anyone in the secular West.

The only point of contention (examples of which can be found in this very thread, along with several others) might be the fact that patriotic Armenians can be so paranoid of the odar culture that surrounds them, because they've seen, or they think they've seen how in the past it has choked their nation to near disappearance, and assimilates their diasporan children to no longer identify with Armenia. Armenians are not the only ones like this, it is classic xenophobia exhibited by people who identify their nation as being a victim of foreigners, and don't have the self confidence (perhaps in the form of numbers in the case of Armenians, who number under 10 million in the world today) to be willing to open up to share their culture in non trivial ways with non-Armenians. Every country has this actually, and I guess they are part of the nation's self defense system. In America, it's only about 10% of the population that is truly patriotic and serves/participates in the country's political leadership, they are xenophobic and they are the ones who are doing the most to advance national military interests! Armenia's population is much smaller, and our patriotic ones are the most vocal, you'll get to hear them quite a bit. Collectively, they do the same for Armenia that republicans do for the US, except that in Armenia, you won't be able to elect "democrats" and hope to keep your national borders and thus their promises for very long :/

But not all Armenians are this way. Maybe I'm an optimist, I think my culture can be shared with others (that's the point of culture), that I can invite and engage anyone interested in it (Armenian and odar alike). If they wish to identify with it someday, that's their choice. I would neither want to push some into it, or try to force others out of it. What we identify with doesn't need to be a club you're a member of, but something you feel inside and follow out of passion and self discovery.

[KanadaHye]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

hahahaha yea, I'm branded U.S. Property =P

What I meant though is I'm "Mexican American" but in completely honesty, we have NO IDEA. We know my mom's side of the family is Mexican (my grandparents, her parents are from Mexico). My parents aren't divorced. They still live togehter and are married. However, on my dad's side, they say we're Mexican, but beyond my dad -- it's up in the air as to what we are. So, I'm just my social security number. hahaha if you check out my profile, you'll truly see I don't look very Mexican, nor very American.

Back to your more serious point though, that intrigues me: "it's easier to take an "odar" who has no cultural ties and have them accept your culture than to marry two people who have vastly different cultures." Are you saying that I can become Armenian -- obviously not physically, but rather by tying myself to that identity?

I've seen Mexicans who looks nothing like typical Mexicans. There have been so many population transfers over the centuries due to war and economic strife. For example, the supposed wealthiest man Carlos Slim is a Lebanese-Mexican.



I'm not saying you can become Armenian in the sense of having Armenian roots but you can graft onto the tree like a branch. I struggled with my identity growing up in Canada as well since I didn't have many Armenians surrounding me aside from family and the occasional community events that my parents dragged me to. I didn't really understand the importance of it until I got older.... for the most part my parents would speak to me in Armenian but I would respond back in English. I find it strange how Armenians who grew up in North America tend to reject their own culture and try to be more Canadian than a Canadian or more American than an American but we really suck at it

[Tali]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

hahahaha yea, I'm branded U.S. Property =P

What I meant though is I'm "Mexican American" but in completely honesty, we have NO IDEA. We know my mom's side of the family is Mexican (my grandparents, her parents are from Mexico). My parents aren't divorced. They still live togehter and are married. However, on my dad's side, they say we're Mexican, but beyond my dad -- it's up in the air as to what we are. So, I'm just my social security number. hahaha if you check out my profile, you'll truly see I don't look very Mexican, nor very American.

Back to your more serious point though, that intrigues me: "it's easier to take an "odar" who has no cultural ties and have them accept your culture than to marry two people who have vastly different cultures." Are you saying that I can become Armenian -- obviously not physically, but rather by tying myself to that identity?

[KanadaHye]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Tali, you have an identity... the government has given you a Social Security number, lol. In all seriousness though, it's easier to take an "odar" who has no cultural ties and have them accept your culture than to marry two people who have vastly different cultures. As far as language goes, the world is becoming more and more globalized so knowing more languages is already a huge benefit.

[Tali]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Thank you for your honest input. Well, like Mos said " the percentage of blood is not the determinant but with what culture you identify yourself with and grown up with, your mother tongue, your mindset, and so on. Of course very rarely will a person with no or little Armenian blood grow up like this, but also on the other hand you have Armenian people with full blood growing up like odars and having nothing to do with Armenia and our culture." That is true of every culture. I am "American" but I'm also technically "Mexican;" he is also "American" but also technically "Armenian". He himself falls in the latter category of little Armenian mindset; however, the cousins and such that I met on his mother's side are definitely very proud Armenians.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a growing trend that odars are becoming more Armenian-like as a way to please the family. Almost like adoption. If i 'become' as close to Armenian as possible, we'll overlook the fact i'm not actually Armenian; though it helps I don't really look like my own race haha.

As for jgk3, my family is very...how shall we say... individualistic. they dont really have an identity for themselves (thus i am the same way). but his family is hoping i can make my bf learn armenian. that's my goal for now til the little ones come by. then they're learning it. If i can succeed in learning W. Armenian, i'll be trilingual. i want them to be the same way.

[jgk3]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Well, I can't marry an Armenian woman anyway; but my bf's family is slowly allowing odar (?) like me to become part of the family. I read a lot of comments and I guess I may be quite the unfavorable person on this thread O.o... how do you guys feel about this reality? I'm not a hypothetical situation. My Armenian boyfriend plans to marry me. Your thoughts?

I think it's great, you care about eachother and you're open to his family and culture. I hope he feels the same way about your family.

[Mos]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Well it's better than if the children with the Odar grow up with no Armenian culture. Given the large diaspora of Armenians, unfortunately many such instances will occur. Of course it's not good. Honestly when it comes to being Armenian, the percentage of blood is not the determinant but with what culture you identify yourself with and grown up with, your mother tongue, your mindset, and so on. Of course very rarely will a person with no or little Armenian blood grow up like this, but also on the other hand you have Armenian people with full blood growing up like odars and having nothing to do with Armenia and our culture.

The US is an assimilation zone.

[KanadaHye]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Honestly, if it's Armenian man marrying non-Armenian woman, in my opinion that's better than the other way around. But still I think it's a shame for Armenians to marry Odars, as already we are a very small group in this world with a large diaspora. I guess if you adopt our religion, customs, language, and pass it on to your children, and teach them that they are Armenians, then it's not so bad.

That's alright, we have the internet and satellite now... we can create new Armenians instead of passing down anything. I'll write a script to "recruit" Armenians by just pressing the "generate" button.

[Mos]

Re: If you couldn't marry an Armenian.....

Honestly, if it's Armenian man marrying non-Armenian woman, in my opinion that's better than the other way around. But still I think it's a shame for Armenians to marry Odars, as already we are a very small group in this world with a large diaspora. I guess if you adopt our religion, customs, language, and pass it on to your children, and teach them that they are Armenians, then it's not so bad.