Tensions rising....

[xBaron Dants]

The brutal assassination of Lieutenant Gurgen Margaryan is causing a huge stir in Armenians. More and more people are saying that Azerbaidjan is preparing for war. Official Armenia's stance seems to be "we won't ever start a war, but we'll damn well kick their @$$es if they start it". This is the first time I recall such tension between Armenia and Azerbaidjan ever since the signing of the cease fire in 1994. Anyone think this will spark a war?

An article from (I think) the Pan-Armenian news network said that Europe was responsible for the murder because they have never reacted to the azeris' constant insults and calls to violence, because of Europe's own interests. Pretty good point.

Further proves Charents right, when he said "Ov Hye joghovoort, ko miag prgootyoon ko havakagan ooji mech e".

We should try to be on the best terms possible with NATO, the EU, the States, Russia, etc...but in the end, we must all remember that for them, we are only pions that they must and will manipulate for their own interests. Nobody even said anything that condemned Azerbaidjan's stance in all of this. They just "expressed their sympathy" and other such bull. Armenians everywhere must take decisive actions to promote unity, because times are getting quite scary....



*************************************************
"Hundreds" attend Armenian officer's funeral in Yerevan

Noyan Tapan news agency
28 Feb 04

YEREVAN

The funeral of the lieutenant of the Armenian armed forces, Gurgen Markaryan, who was hacked to death while asleep by Azerbaijani officer Ramil Safarov, was held in the Yerablur pantheon on 28 February. The killing was committed on 19 February in Hungary where the two officers were on a visit within the framework of NATO's Partnership for Peace programme.

Hundreds of people paid their last respects to Markaryan: relatives, senior officials of the Armenian Defence Ministry, colleagues, members of parliament and government, many NGOs that unite the relatives of killed azatamartiks [freedom fighters] and simply people who were shocked by the incident.

"We came to tell the Azeris that we are not cowards and do not kill anyone while they are asleep, but if necessary, we will all stand united to defend our motherland," the chairwoman of the Call of Pang organization, Anaid Sarkisyan, said on behalf of the mothers of killed azatamartiks. Flora Zakaryan, mother of Agasi Shaginyan who was killed in the war, said in tears: "It is as though I am burying my own son for the second time. The whole world must know about this crime."
"When I heard about this crime, I wanted to take up arms. If
necessary, I will go to war. I won't chop off anyone's heads, but I'll shoot as much as I can," said Garib Melkonyan, father of the deceased Lyudvig Melkonyan.

Armenian Defence Minister Serzh Sarkisyan said in his address to a rally of mourning that this murder, which is unprecedented for its brutality, is a consequence of intensifying anti-Armenian propaganda in Azerbaijan. He pointed out that public organizations, which are creating an atmosphere of intolerance, are supported and assisted by the Azerbaijani authorities and that military programmes for training officers contain elements of hatred and fan the flames of bellicose moods.

Sarkisyan said that anti-Armenian propaganda has moved to
international programmes. Azerbaijan first banned Armenian officers from visiting Baku within the framework of a NATO programme, and now murder has been committed within the framework of the same NATO programme. According to Sarkisyan, the international community will give an appropriate assessment of the incident, otherwise the political settlement of the Karabakh issue will suffer a setback.

All speakers emphasized the moral side of what is going on in
Azerbaijan, where a cowardly murderer who hacked his counterpart to death while asleep has been declared a hero. "This crime demonstrated to the whole world that an officer of the Azerbaijani army has no honour. Armenian officers had not committed such a base crime - killing someone while they are asleep, even during the war," Lt-Col Nazaryan said.

[TigranJamharian]

You are right. We are nothing more than peons to them. But we must play it as smartly as we can.

God forbid there is a war but that is what people in Armenia think is going to happen.
I am beginning to think that we will not be able to end this conflict without resumption of hostilities. They have gotten a thought into their head over there that they didnt get their asses beat the first time around and they are now very unwilling to make any sacrifices. We won the war and will not settle without kharabakh either being part of Armenia or being independant. Obviously there is a big gap. I think we have to remind them that we achieved victory and that they are crazy if they think they are going to gte any of the terittories around kharabakh back without kharabakh getting the status we want. Now i dont want war because God knows what consequences it had on the nation before and i am afraid it will set back what we have achieved in the nation to this day. If they start we definately will kick their dirty turk a$$es.

[xBaron Dants]

I don't know what to think anymore...

This whole issue seems to be going nowhere. You seriously do get the sense that violence would be the most effective way out. But we can't allow that to happen. We can't sink to their level. We won the war, we saved Artsakh, and that's the way it'll stay.

Maybe if the status quo is kept long enough, and Armenia and Artsakh develop stable economies, the international community and the azeris will have no other choice but to finally accept Artsakh's independance (or ideally, reattachment to Armenia)?
But how long can we seriously live in this uncertainty, and constant threats? Can Artsakh honestly develop freely when there is always the risk of a crazed turk instigating a war?

And the EU still talking about giving back occupied territories...it's as if they don't care at all if giving back those territories will endanger the lives of every man, woman and child living in Artsakh.

And the Armenians still b*tching about party politics....though I was glad to see that in cases like this (Margaryan's assassination), they are able to take a common stance. Hopefully the opposition can turn into a credible one (same goes for the government)...

All I know is that if, God forbid, war broke out, it would be impossible for me to stay here and keep living my canadian life. I'd rather kill myself.

Akh, I'm getting all confused and worried here...

[Anonymouse]

I doubt this is sufficient to spark a war, but in my humble opinion, a war is the last thing the average people in Armenia need or want.

More war. More youngsters dying. Armenians are already on a low birthrate, and emigrating as well. This is not the answer. War is not healthy for the people, but for the State. War is only going to worsen Armenia's situation.

However, if war comes to Armenia, Armenia will have no choice but to fight back. Otherwise, I believe Armenia should keep a neutral stance.

But then again, what does all this matter if higher powers that be in the echelons of global politics have already decided the fate of the little peoples of the world.

[xBaron Dants]

Eh, Armenia has made it clear that they will never start a war. But Azerbaidjan is showing every sign of barbarism that can be shown.

Of course I will never encourage war, and am scared to death by the mere thought of it. I am just reading more and more articles that mention war, and it bothers me...a lot.

Dear God, why couldn't we have more normal neighbours?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Eh, Armenia has made it clear that they will never start a war. But Azerbaidjan is showing every sign of barbarism that can be shown.

When have they not shown a sign of barbarism?

Originally posted by Baron Dants Of course I will never encourage war, and am scared to death by the mere thought of it. I am just reading more and more articles that mention war, and it bothers me...a lot.

Dear God, why couldn't we have more normal neighbours?

Don't worry, it is just emotional responses that people are responding with. It would be more prudent to remain, cool, calm, and collected. Besides, Kharabagh are highlands, and it ain't easy to take, so any war that begins an offensive on a mountainous terrain from below to above, is very difficult and most of the time fails, unless they have really superior forces.

Take a look at the battle of Bunker Hill in which the few American Revolutionary forces withstood the whole British offensive for quite a while before giving up the territory.

[xBaron Dants]

Bah, never will I doubt Armenian victory if the azeris decide to attack. I just don't want to see one more young man die at the hands of those people. In Artsakh this summer, the fedayis were telling us how a dozen men were able to protect the whole village from the azeri forces. We have gotten only stronger since then.

And kudos to the Armenians who, despite all the emotions involved, have actually spoken more of peace than the azeri lakots, who have the guts to turn such a coward into a hero. Tells a lot about their history and values. And the international community still not saying anything...

We have a long road ahead.

[Anonymouse]

My neighbor was telling me how when he served in the Army back in the day when it was still the USSR, that the Azeris never had any guts by themselves, only in sheer numbers they would somehow feel "superior".

Anyway, this guy is in his 40s, but a very huge Armenian mountain man, and he was telling me how he'd punk these Azeri's around when he was in army. It was pretty funny.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Anonymouse My neighbor was telling me how when he served in the Army back in the day when it was still the USSR, that the Azeris never had any guts by themselves, only in sheer numbers they would somehow feel "superior".

Anyway, this guy is in his 40s, but a very huge Armenian mountain man, and he was telling me how he'd punk these Azeri's around when he was in army. It was pretty funny.

Haha. Fedayis rock. You feel so safe when you're around them. I mean, some of these guys had lost their sons or fathers in the war, and are always ready to defend their homes again.

That also plays in our advantage. Armenians volunteered in the war because they were defending their own, and defending their homes. The azeris were just being sent to war because...well, that's what azeris do.

[Mikoyan]

Originally posted by Baron Dants The azeris were just being sent to war because...well, that's what azeris do.

Genius. Must be in the genes, as your mum probably told you theyre sons of wolves arent they???

jesus christ, this war mongering talk is disgusting.

You go to those whose sons were lost in ARmenia during the war and ask them if they want war
Go ask those whose family starved because money was being spent on war and not on bread

I wonder who wants a war more, the armenian capitalist who is gonna make huge profits in armaments in the war, or the silly 15 year old dashnak in LA who is singing songs of war the other side of the globe from Kharabagh...puzzling

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Mikoyan Genius. Must be in the genes, as your mum probably told you theyre sons of wolves arent they???

jesus christ, this war mongering talk is disgusting.

You go to those whose sons were lost in ARmenia during the war and ask them if they want war
Go ask those whose family starved because money was being spent on war and not on bread

I wonder who wants a war more, the armenian capitalist who is gonna make huge profits in armaments in the war, or the silly 15 year old dashnak in LA who is singing songs of war the other side of the globe from Kharabagh...puzzling

Hey nerfbrain, maybe you should re read the post no one wanted war, it was simply talk of a potential war.

As far as war and genocide go, there is something in the oriential mind in which the Turks have always been bloodlusting. Someone made a point to me in which we cannot approach emotional oriental minds with western rational thinking.

[Mikoyan]

that particular point was in reference to the other thread re armenian officer killed

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Mikoyan Genius. Must be in the genes, as your mum probably told you theyre sons of wolves arent they???

jesus christ, this war mongering talk is disgusting.

You go to those whose sons were lost in ARmenia during the war and ask them if they want war
Go ask those whose family starved because money was being spent on war and not on bread

I wonder who wants a war more, the armenian capitalist who is gonna make huge profits in armaments in the war, or the silly 15 year old dashnak in LA who is singing songs of war the other side of the globe from Kharabagh...puzzling

I have never observed an Azeri's genes. I based what I said based on what we've seen throughout history.

You have temper issues. I've always said that I don't want war, yet you start blabbering about what a war mongering person I am. The only people that are talking about war are Azeris.

And yes, I have spoken to all those people....from the ones who lost their sons to the ones who almost starved, and they told me that they don't want war, and want peace, but will always defend their country if they're attacked.

So what is your point again?

[Mikoyan]

"I have never observed an Azeri's genes. I based what I said based on what we've seen throughout history."
-Interesting, what books concerning Azeri history have you read, i would like to read into these

"You have temper issues. I've always said that I don't want war, yet you start blabbering about what a war mongering person I am. The only people that are talking about war are Azeris."
- Not so much temper issues, more frustration
- I didnt say you were war mongering, just the general attitude of the board

"And yes, I have spoken to all those people....from the ones who lost their sons to the ones who almost starved, and they told me that they don't want war, and want peace, but will always defend their country if they're attacked."
Would they fight for their country or for their survival, 2 different things, and i believe the case in Kharabagh was for the latter, not for nationalist pride

[TigranJamharian]

listen you communist, how about you stop your fronting and your stupidity. stop putting words in people's mouths.
How would the Armenian capitalist make money off arnament? There are no companies in Armenia that produce war weapons. stop with your useless repetitive bullsh!t

[Anonymouse]

From my knowledge Armenia gets its stuff from Russia.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Anonymouse From my knowledge Armenia gets its stuff from Russia.

Of course. Heck, Russia might even cut us a deal for their weapons, but I still don't see anyone in Armenia making a profit.

[vrej]

guys don't listen to mikoyan or watever his name is... he's just another commy fighting for the working class... when will these idiots stop thinking about the workin class and start thinking about their own people.. the Armenians.

communism is done, its over with. If your a commy you aint Armenian. so get lost.

[TigranJamharian]

guys don't listen to mikoyan or watever his name is... he's just another commy fighting for the working class... when will these idiots stop thinking about the workin class and start thinking about their own people.. the Armenians.
communism is done, its over with. If your a commy you aint Armenian. so get lost.

perfectly said.


What communist boy doesnt understand is that people have more interests than money. he goes on against capitalists but doesnt realize that those same capitalists like kirk kirkorian are helping their nation. not profiting from its misery. just because you are a worthless scum that doesnt have a shred of love for his nation dont think that everyone else is like that.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by vrej guys don't listen to mikoyan or watever his name is... he's just another commy fighting for the working class... when will these idiots stop thinking about the workin class and start thinking about their own people.. the Armenians.

communism is done, its over with. If your a commy you aint Armenian. so get lost.

Well, I'll never go as far as saying that a communist armenian isn't an armenian, because that's just not true, and creates the sort of conflicts that I'm hoping we'll FINALLY get rid of.

I personally know quite a few Armenians who ARE communists, and anyone who says that they are not Armenian is, simply put, an idiot. These are people that have dedicated their life to Armenia and the Armenian community.

However, all those that I know have a strong sense of Armenian identity.

So please, Vrej jan, let's not generalize yet again, and not sink into the "if you're this, you're not Armenian" or "if you're not that, you're not Armenian". Aren't we sick of that yet?

[vrej]

Baron Dantz, communism does not recognize nationality, it doesn't recognize Armenianness, or freedom. The people you know who are commy and say they are patriotic, and help the Armenian community are not real communists in the first place.

I'm talking about people who call themselves commy and actually act and speak as so. those can not be concidered Armenian, this is my stance.

Communism in Armenia almost took our identity, culture, and religion away, can people who carried this out and enforced it be concidered Armenian? or are they just merely communists who beleive in the "well-being" of the working class universally?

[Mikoyan]

Vrej,
"Baron Dantz, communism does not recognize nationality, it doesn't recognize Armenianness, or freedom. The people you know who are commy and say they are patriotic, and help the Armenian community are not real communists in the first place."
Dear oh dear oh dear.
A) communism recognises that there are clearly different races and cultures etc ie what an inarticulate idiot would call "Armenianness(!)". That why many a book has been written on "the national question" etc etc. So thats your first mistake
B) Communism believes that there should be freedom. Thats why we fight for the liberation of workers from their "wage-slave" state. How many times have you read the communist manifesto and seen where it rights "in a communist state there should be no freedom". de facto showing stalin was not a communist

"Communism in Armenia almost took our identity, culture, and religion away, can people who carried this out and enforced it be concidered Armenian? or are they just merely communists who beleive in the "well-being" of the working class universally?"
Is that why even in a deformed socialist state millions were spent on building for culture. You think Kirk built the Opera house? or maybe he built the 90,000 stadium, or maybe he built the place where the hamhaygagan games closing ceremony was, i forget the name.
Its funny you see, because under capitalism, as armenia can never be more than a semi-colonial state, armenia is the market for all the cheap bilge pop music straight from LA such as Britney etc etc. Getseh capitalism for preserving armenian culture, solid argument you got there mate...


Tigran,
"What communist boy doesnt understand is that people have more interests than money. he goes on against capitalists but doesnt realize that those same capitalists like kirk kirkorian are helping their nation. not profiting from its misery. just because you are a worthless scum that doesnt have a shred of love for his nation dont think that everyone else is like that."
-How much did Kirk Krikorian pay for the war effort for "our great nation"? xxxx all.
-As a capitalist he has capitalist interests at heart, and will only make a move if it provides greater flexibility for capitalism to grow like the cancer it is on the armenian people

"vrej guys don't listen to mikoyan or watever his name is... he's just another commy fighting for the working class... when will these idiots stop thinking about the workin class and start thinking about their own people.. the Armenians."
-Lol, yes i forgot Armenia doesnt have a working class, or actually, its working class is around 90% of population. boy i am so selfish for fighting for these interests and not the capitalist class.

"communism is done, its over with. If your a commy you aint Armenian. so get lost."
From where, LA where you are? why the xxxx wud i come there again?

Baron,
"Of course. Heck, Russia might even cut us a deal for their weapons, but I still don't see anyone in Armenia making a profit."
-Try Serj and co's grip on petrol which is a major drain on Armenian peoples money, and most cant afford.
-Armenia also i believe makes ammunitions and so on, it cant make big weapons as its a semi-colonial nation and cant hold the power to do so.


TigranJamharian,

"listen you communist, how about you stop your fronting and your stupidity. stop putting words in people's mouths.
How would the Armenian capitalist make money off arnament? There are no companies in Armenia that produce war weapons. stop with your useless repetitive bullsh!t"
-Well i just proved you wrong, go research on our glorious Armenia, and you'll know wtf is really happening

[vrej]

I am not from L.A, and i don't knwo why you would say i am. and i am not even going to bother argueing with you on this subject cus i have wasted my time doing so with others in the this forum and out, and have proven them wrong on many occasions. you continue on beleiveing in what you beleive, and i know by me typing up a few lines are pointless and would not change your mind. The only reason i would argue someone like you is so that others wont fall into the same dirt hole you already have, but i think people in this chat room are smart enough to decide on their own.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Mikoyan
A) communism recognises that there are clearly different races and cultures etc ie what an inarticulate idiot would call "Armenianness(!)". That why many a book has been written on "the national question" etc etc. So thats your first mistake

Apparently you haven't read Karl Marx' works, particularly Communist Manifesto, or the writings of Engels. They did believe that family, race, religion, are all barriers that hold back the proletariat and should be eliminated, as in mixed, this is what is behind 'diversity is our strength'. Your assertion is not in keeping with Marxist ideals for they believed in egalitarianism, which if you recognize races and cultures you know there are inequalities.

Originally posted by Mikoyan B) Communism believes that there should be freedom. Thats why we fight for the liberation of workers from their "wage-slave" state. How many times have you read the communist manifesto and seen where it rights "in a communist state there should be no freedom". de facto showing stalin was not a communist

Communism doesn't believe in freedom, it believes in equality and to achieve equality you need a powerful overlord ( the State ) to oversee it. People should understand that "freedom" and "equality" are ideas, abstract concepts, they are not real, but have been used effectively to mind control and manipulate the masses in every which way. This is where Marx confuses equality and freedom for the two are mutually exclusive ideas.

[Mikoyan]

"Apparently you haven't read Karl Marx' works, particularly Communist Manifesto, or the writings of Engels. They did believe that family, race, religion, are all barriers that hold back the proletariat and should be eliminated, as in mixed, this is what is behind 'diversity is our strength'. Your assertion is not in keeping with Marxist ideals for they believed in egalitarianism, which if you recognize races and cultures you know there are inequalities."
-No no, Vrej said communists dont believe there are such things, i simply replied saying we recognise there are, proving him wrong. I didnt say they were progressive things enger.

"Communism doesn't believe in freedom, it believes in equality and to achieve equality you need a powerful overlord ( the State ) to oversee it. People should understand that "freedom" and "equality" are ideas, abstract concepts, they are not real, but have been used effectively to mind control and manipulate the masses in every which way. This is where Marx confuses equality and freedom for the two are mutually exclusive ideas."
-In communism there is no state so....