Thoughts on Tashnagtsootyoon... [Archive]

xBaron Dants

06-01-2004, 07:06 PM

In a bid to revive the armenian politics forum, and to also regain my title as "tashnag basher" ( :rolleyes: ), I will now share a few thoughts about the Hay Heghapokhagan Tashnagtsootyoon with you. Now I know that many will start bashing me, as they have before, but I beg of you, to please, please stick to the topics and to the questions that I will have posted, and to not go off on tangents. This could end up being quite long, so please, bear with me.

Alright, so here goes...

On the occasion of Armenia's first independance, Hrant Margaryan, president of the Tashnagtsootyoon Bureau, was in Montreal. I was told by a tashnag friend of mine to attend, because I would get a better idea of what the Tashnagtsootyoon really is, and there would also be a question and answer session. So, on Sunday night, I drove to Sourp Hagop getron, with 3 questions already in mind, eager to hear his answers.

As soon as I stepped in the gymnasium where the event was being held, TAKH, some hand popped out and stuck a sticker on my chest. I removed the sticker, in order to see what it was that I was actually wearing on my chest, and already received a few looks. A nice metaphor, I thought, that it didn't matter if I knew what they had stuck on my chest or not, as long as I kept it there. The sticker, it turns out, just had the "zinanshan" of the first Armenian Republic, and the words "May 28 - First Independance Day" in armenian. Finding it innocent enough, I put it back on my shirt. The gymnasium was COVERED with at least 30 flags of Armenia., including a HUGE one (about the size of half the gym wall) right behind the podium. I sat down somewhere near the back, and the program was already about to start. The scouts marched in, played the Armenian and Canadian anthems, and left. It was quite nice. Then came in the MC of the night, and it already became clear to me that this wasn't going to be the type of no-nonsense political conversation evening I was expecting it to be...rather, it would be a celebration of May 28, and the Tashnagtsootyoon. The "kegharvesdagan" part of the evening started, with a choir from the Sourp Hagop Azkayin Varjaran. They sang a nice song about Yerevan, and the ever-famous "Tro-i yerke", a song whose chorus starts with "ARII TASHNAG TROOOO". Now, call me crazy, but I found it somewhat weird that the 9-10 year old students of an "azkayin varjaran" were singing songs about a political party. It struck me as somewhat forced. Anyways, the evening went on, with a poem, a female opera singer, and countless praise about the Armenians' heroic victory which occured on May 28th, when we fought the enemies and established a Republic, and how we shall always be ready to die for freedom, and so on and so forth...

And then came "Enger" Hrant Margaryan, the Pope of the Tashnagtsootyoon himself. He gave a speech about how Armenia is not only the homeland of the Armenians in Armenia, but the homeland of Armenians everywhere. He then said how important it was for Armenians around the world to care about Armenia, and to implicate themselves in Armenia's future. He said that this was the first Armenian government ever who had made recognition of genocide a priority, and had actually paid attention to the diaspora. Now, he also said that there IS corruption within the Armenian government. I was pleasantly surprised, as the tashnagtsootyoon is now part of the coalition government running our country. However, he followed up saying that the tashnagtsootyoon agreed to join the coalition government in order to clean up the corruption which the OTHER parties had created. His point basically seemed to be that the tashnags are not corrupt at all, and while he did admit that the government was corrupt, he still wouldn't admit that the tashnagtsootyoon, now PART of the government, could also be corrupt. Weird, I thought, considering the fact that one of the largest cafés in all of Yerevan is known as the "tashnag café", because of its tashnag owners, who also happen to be Members of Parliament...

Then came the highlight of the night, when Baron Margaryan started speaking about the Armenian Opposition. He said that, by always pushing for Kocharian's resignation, the Opposition was only weakening Armenia's stability, which gave it a certain advantage in the region, and strengthening our enemies (Azerbaidjan). Now you can agree with this or not, but what I found hilariously hypocritical about this was that Hrant Margaryan had been arrested in 1994 for.....plotting a coup against then-President Levon Ter Petrosian.

The speech ended, and the man was given a standing ovation, and I was given a few dirty looks as I was still sitting, with my arms crossed. Another amusing metaphor...How COULD I not applaud what everybody else was applauding?

And then came the new Archbishop of the newly created diocese of the Holy See of Antelias in Canada. It must be noted that he does not like the term of "Arachnort Giligyan temi" like all the other archbishops of the Holy See of Antelias, and wants to also go by the name of "Arachnort Canadahayots". Anyways, he came on stage and talked about politics, and I thought it would be fitting for him to go read the Bible, instead of meddling in things which are not the business of the clerics. It seemed to me that he wanted to be seen as a Ghevont Yerets, or a Khrimian Hayrig, and was in denial that the circumstances for Armenians to need a Ghevonts Yerets or a Khrimian Hayrig do not really exist at the moment.

Now, on to my impressions...The sceptic in my would analyze this evening as an opportunity to get your fix of somewhat senseless nationalism. It seems the crowd came, heard what they have already heard about needing to die for Armenia, and then left. They're most probably scheduled to get their next fix two weeks later. That may sound too harsh, and I apologize if it does.

What I found puzzling is this constant talk about "dying for the Motherland". Now, if Azerbaidjan were to attack, I would be ready to fight and die for Armenia, but it seemed to me that they were almost waiting for the opportunity to die for Armenia. As if not dying is not patriotic enough. I would think that it is a lot more patriotic to want to LIVE for Armenia, and to want to see Armenia LIVE, instead of always talking about how everyone must die.

And now, I'm going to mention something that may be more controversial, for the three people that had the patience of reading this post all the way here. Two weeks ago, Turkish historian Taner Akçam gave a conference saying that the history of Turkey had to be changed, so Turks would still feel proud of their country. I find that this also applies to the Tashnagtsootyoon. The perfect example would be General Tro, whose song was sung by the children's choir. Most Tashnags know Tro as a heroic general, who played a big role in the resistance against the Turks. That is true. Many sources would say that he was indeed a brilliant and brave tactician. Tro was also a minister in the short-lived First Armenian Republic, and many Tashnags would not know that he wasn't as competent a politician, as he was a general. Even fewer will know that once Armenia became part of the USSR, Tro actually became a Bolshevik for a while, then quit to, 15-20 years later, attempt to organize an Armenian legion within the Nazi army, who would fight the Soviets (with its hundreds of thousands of Armenian soldiers). Why are these facts not known by so many people? Why are so many people not aware that the great Zoravar Antranig quit the tashnagtsootyoon when he saw the way they were handling things? Why are almost all Tashnags convinced that the Tashnagtsootyoon was responsible for the liberation of Artsakh, when that movement began in the late 80s, when the Tashnagtsootyoon had not yet returned to Armenia, and when the Karabakh Gomidé was the one being arrested for their actions to achieve liberation?

And the most important case is of course the May 28 independance itself. While the image was given on Sunday (and is given almost every day), that the Tashnag government bravely fought off the Turks and declared an independant Armenian Republic, we know very well that the Tashnag government wanted to keep a Transcaucasian state with Georgia and Azerbaidjan, and had no choice but to declare its independance once those two declared their own, backed by Germany and Turkey, respectively.

So these are the thoughts that crossed my mind Sunday night...to all those who read until the end, I'd like to know your opinions. But please stay on topic, and don't start insulting.

Genuine_Stud

06-02-2004, 01:33 AM

No matter what political party "gathering" you go to, their all going to boast that they were the ones that did this and that they were the ones that did that. The reason being is because unfortunately these parties are working to compete with each other on who does the best job for their country (which isn't a bad thing), but it also causes a lot of stereotypical views towards each party from other political parties, and it also causes somewhat of a seperation between Armenians themselves.

I should like to see the day when all three of the political parties work together and achieve something together, rather than work against each other, or compete against each other on small and big things/projects concerning Armenia.

As far as political parties go, I have respect for all three even though I may not agree with particular views from each of them.

The reason I have this respect is because, throughout the diaspora, each political party has organized many types of events to keep Armenians together and boast Armenian nationalism and patriotism. In a century after about 90 years of genocide, I think it's good for us to be reminded from either political party about who we are and the type of power we have to make Armenia better through that particular political party gathering we attend.

You don't have to agree with some of the views they express. Just take in what you think is valid, intellectual, benefial from that speech and learn from it. Sometimes, when you "step outside of the box" you learn a lot more than you think.

nairi

06-02-2004, 02:44 AM

The gymnasium was COVERED with at least 30 flags of Armenia., including a HUGE one (about the size of half the gym wall) right behind the podium.

Reminds one of Grey Wolves and Turks in general. Ara Baliozian is right when he says many of us are still Ottomanized.

Thanks for the report Paron, although nothing unexpected...

dusken

06-02-2004, 11:22 AM

xBaron Dants

06-02-2004, 01:40 PM

Let us get this out of the way: "striked" should be "struck".

I wish I knew more about political parties and what they do for Armenia and how they do it. Because of my lack of knowledge I can only feel that I am hearing a biased point of view.

It does seem to me though that there is something to be gained from having Armenians that are more militant in their patriotism. It is unfortunate that views have to be reduced to political party designations to begin with, since it does separate people that all have the same goals. There is not a better approach to Armenia's success; there are just different angles that have to be fulfilled. The militant and the passive can co-exist — or so it seems to me.

Now, let us assume that the historical and contemporary political elements you addressed are truly misrepresentations. Censoring historical information for the sake of pride in a political party is absurd. It is absurd because, as I stated, the idea of a political party, especially for a diaspora, is counterproductive. Am I missing something? Is it really impossible to just say, "Hey, it is in my character to reach our goal this way and it is in your character to reach our goal a different way, but the fact remains that it is our goal." It is a state of mind that does not contradict individual approaches: mutual respect and true patriotism. That being said, censoring historical and contemporary political facts only forms the mental lines between parties and does not seem to have such a widespread affect on Armenian politics in general. Hell, maybe it does; I do not know.

Criticizing their presentation of the idea of sacrificing themselves for Armenia is an empty criticism. "t seems like this and it seems like that" is being said by someone is is prepared to criticize. If someone feels they are very willing to express their patriotism in that manner, so be it. I feel comforted knowing that there are people that are militant about their patriotism. There is nothing wrong with that. The difficulty I would have is the feeling of that mentality being the only patriotic mentality. There is the bullshyt; "my patriotism is superior to yours," and that goes for all sides that feel that way.

It is unfortunate that we do not recognize that the Armenian government is corrupt from top to bottom, regardless of the political party. There is more to be gained by bluntly expressing that the whole thing is backwards and should be fixed. Finger pointing and the partisan mentality is juvenile and, in my opinion, selfish and unpatriotic. Why? Because the country becomes a secondary cause for action, and as much as they say otherwise, I will believe this to be true.

iiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting

First off, I must say that when I went to sleep after posting, it occurred to me, out of the blue, that I should’ve written “struck” instead of “striked”. However, thinking that nobody would notice, I decided that it wasn’t worth going aaaall the way downstairs to fix it. I should’ve known better. :)
Now on to the topic.

My post is most probably biased. They are the opinions of a person who thinks that political parties outside of Armenia have negative effects. However, all historical facts I posted are well-documented facts that I’ve read from both Armenian and non-Armenian sources. It would be highly idiotic of me to intentionally bring up erroneous historical facts to “demolish” an organization, as I would be doing exactly that, which I am critical of.

Now, if militant and passive had coexisted, I wouldn’t have needed to type that essay. The fact remains that there is some sort of artificial schism created between the two, or three, or whatever number of organizations we have. I say artificial because I do not believe that it is representative of the people. A young non-goosagtsagan like myself, can work very well with a young goosagtsagan (whether tashnag, hnchag, chootag, whatever). It works because we are able to see the common goal, and it becomes the only thing we work for, with heated and interesting debates on the side. But at a higher level, this has almost never worked out, and the reason why I speak of the tashnagtsootyoon is because in my community, the tashnagtsootyoon is the most vocal of the three, and I’m sorry to say, but also the one who, in these last couple of years, has most “kake hanel”. In Boston or Los Angeles or Tehran, it might be different. I don’t know. Having read the Armenian Reporter from Boston, I can say that the Tashnagtsootyoon there seems to be a LOT MORE interested in the common goal than the one here. But all this, I repeat, is an artificial situation created by some people on top: one adenabed who dislikes the other adenabed, one der hayr who wants a hat bigger than the other der hayr…aboush paner. And while they are to blame, the silent majority, who chooses to not do much to fix the situation, is just as guilty.

dusken

06-02-2004, 02:12 PM

However, all historical facts I posted are well-documented facts that I’ve read from both Armenian and non-Armenian sources. It would be highly idiotic of me to intentionally bring up erroneous historical facts to “demolish” an organization, as I would be doing exactly that, which I am critical of.

I hope you did not think I was claiming that you were potentially making things up. This is not what I meant. The idea was that, since I do not know any of the historical facts, I have to assume that any assertions I hear or read about historical events is potentially lacking in a well-rounded view of the actual events. In any case, I went on to state my opinions assuming that history was misrepresented as you had said it was, and I believe we are not necessarily in disagreement.

My post is most probably biased. They are the opinions of a person who thinks that political parties outside of Armenia have negative effects....... Now, if militant and passive had coexisted, I wouldn’t have needed to type that essay. The fact remains that there is some sort of artificial schism created between the two, or three, or whatever number of organizations we have. I say artificial because I do not believe that it is representative of the people. A young non-goosagtsagan like myself, can work very well with a young goosagtsagan (whether tashnag, hnchag, chootag, whatever). It works because we are able to see the common goal, and it becomes the only thing we work for, with heated and interesting debates on the side. But at a higher level, this has almost never worked out, and the reason why I speak of the tashnagtsootyoon is because in my community, the tashnagtsootyoon is the most vocal of the three, and I’m sorry to say, but also the one who, in these last couple of years, has most “kake hanel”. In Boston or Los Angeles or Tehran, it might be different. I don’t know. Having read the Armenian Reporter from Boston, I can say that the Tashnagtsootyoon there seems to be a LOT MORE interested in the common goal than the one here. But all this, I repeat, is an artificial situation created by some people on top: one adenabed who dislikes the other adenabed, one der hayr who wants a hat bigger than the other der hayr…aboush paner. And while they are to blame, the silent majority, who chooses to not do much to fix the situation, is just as guilty.

The militant patriotism and the passive patriotism are not co-existing harmoniously and that is due to the fact that they are defined as political parties, which, by their very nature, support only one method of achieving a goal. They can co-exist harmoniously if people realize that both can be supported simultaneously to achieve the same goal. They are either attacking different issues altogether or are attacking the same one from different sides, not necessarily impeding on eachother. It is not a matter of right and wrong; it is a matter of the character of the patriot. It seems we are essentially in agreement but I do not believe that it is the fault of any one political party but the idea of parties. You said it yourself: "one adenabed who dislikes the other adenabed, one der hayr who wants a hat bigger than the other der hayr." Political parties, especially within the diaspora are, as I had said, selfish and unpatriotic by their nature.

I would like to see meetings where there would be designations among the "parties" as to which issues they will effect remediation. Party A will assume responsibility over Part 1 of Issue 1; Party B will assume responsibility of Part 2 of Issue 1; Party C will assume responsibility of Issue 2, and so on. It will never happen, of course. You say the silent are as at fault but such radical approaches would be near impossible to execute. I can only imagine complaining and hoping that the corruption does not get any worse and that parties average eachother out, with respect to their intensions regarding Armenian politics.

(whether tashnag, hnchag, chootag, whatever)

:laugh:

xBaron Dants

06-02-2004, 02:33 PM

Well, cases of cooperation have only truly worked within ad hoc initiatives, where members of different parties and organizations have ably worked together. Of course, these initiatives were not "sanctioned" by any organization or party, and some even had negative ideas about them.

The perfect example would be April 24. I still do not understand how the Montrealahayootyoon was unable to be in one place, praying and commemorating together.

Oh well, the eternal optimist in me says that there is change that's coming. Youth today care a lot less about the petty issues, and are more interested by the real causes, both for Armenia and the Diaspora. Slowly, the Beirut/Haleb/Bolis/Yekibdos old-school mentality will go away.

anileve

06-02-2004, 03:21 PM

...with respect to their intensions regarding Armenian politics.

Let us get this out of the way: “ntensions” should be “intentions”.

As for your post Baron, what you've described is very disturbing. Reading it was reminiscent of the foul smell of Communism, where the flags were larger than the red carpet at Oscar's and the voices of little children harmoniously barking complex slogans of communism without any comprehension of their meaning, were like watching a horror film. Militant patriotism is actually a very close relative of terrorism, which is slightly hinted in the wonderful call "to die for our nation", so to me it's all absurd. As for any patriotism or nationalism, it's all very unhealthy and a sure sedative for individualism. Moreover, I am tired of hearing the same "crepe" about Armenia, for once I would like to hear people come up with a more constructive and original plan, and not some trite.

dusken

06-02-2004, 03:35 PM

Let us get this out of the way: “ntensions” should be “intentions”.

Right you are. My mistake.

As for your post Baron, what you've described is very disturbing. Reading it was reminiscent of the foul smell of Communism, where the flags were larger than the red carpet at Oscar's and the voices of little children harmoniously barking complex slogans of communism without any comprehension of their meaning, were like watching a horror film. Militant patriotism is actually a very close relative of terrorism, which is slightly hinted in the wonderful call "to die for our nation", so to me it's all absurd.

It is not a good thing but I think you are exaggerating it.

As for any patriotism or nationalism, it's all very unhealthy and a sure sedative for individualism.

I do not agree. I love the idea of culture and love the feeling of culture. It is for that reason I feel protective of that which harbors and symbolizes it.

Moreover, I am tired of hearing the same "crepe" about Armenia, for once I would like to hear people come up with a more constructive and original plan, and not some trite.

What exactly do you consider to be the same crap?

If it was so easy to create a real constructive plan that a bunch of youth with no political experience will concoct it on a website forum, well...

There is nothing wrong with discussing or expressing opinions. Everything starts there, anyway.

xBaron Dants

06-02-2004, 06:47 PM

I disagree about patriotism being a bad thing. Militant nationalism can obviously lead to ethnocentrism and maybe terrorism, but I still do not understand why some people are so afraid of loving and appreciating (and also criticizing of course) their country, and their people.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 12:30 AM

Tashnag Karabakh veteran stresses Armenia must unite, defend territories

Zhirayr Sefelyan, commander of the Dashnak detachment that participated in
the capture of Shushi [Susa] during the Karabakh war said Armenia today
must unite to protect its territories. He accused "external forces" of
trying to keep Armenia weak and create divisions among Karabakh veterans.
Sefelyan said he did not believe that the former commander of the Karabakh
army, Samvel Babayan, was behind the attempt on the life of Karabakh
President Arkadiy Gukasyan, and blamed the same "external forces". The
following is text of Marina Grigoryan interview by Armenian newspaper Golos
Armenii on 8 May entitled "`Shushi was a victory of the Armenian spirit,'
says Zhirayr Sefelyan, commander of the Dashnak detachment that
participated in the liberation of Shushi":

[Zhirayr] Sefelyan has recently become active in public and political life:
some months ago he emerged as one of the initiators of the "Armenian
Resistance" movement, and he also plays an active role in the "defence of
the liberated territories" public initiative and the committee of
comrades-in-arms for the defence of Samvel Babayan.

[Zhirayr Sefelyan] I was born in Beirut. In 1990 I was happy to return to my
native land to take part in the Armenian-Turkish conflict. I did not manage
to receive a higher education because of the civil war in Lebanon. I was
forced to abandon my education and go in for military training. I was then
able to use this in Karabakh.

I am a Dashnak, though for two years I have not been a member of the Dashnak
party. I think that to feel oneself a Dashnak and to be a member of that
party are two different things.

[Correspondent] And why "Armenian Resistance"? Resistance to whom?

[Sefelyan] Not resistance to something or someone, but in the name of what
we essentially are. We must be able to create a system that does not spoil
the integrity of what we essentially are. Today, possibly for the first
time in the history of Armenia, this is under threat in our own land. That
is why we put forward the goal of promoting the maintenance of our
essential core.

[Correspondent] Let us return to nine years ago. What do you remember most
of all? What did the liberation of Shushi [Susa] mean to you?

[Sefelyan] What I remember most vividly is a sense of the unique spirit
among the Armenians at that time. I would say that Shushi was liberated
primarily thanks to our great spirit, not because of military superiority,
organization or for some other reason. I remember the mood of the boys
before battle. It was great, though everybody understood that they might
die.

From the point of view of the significance of that victory, the main thing
was that Stepanakert [Xankandi] could breathe freely once it was safe from
the threat of being fired on. The liberation of Shushi represented a moral
breakthrough in the course of the military actions: the enemy understood
that if the Armenians were able to capture that fortress, that meant they
could overcome anything. Within a week a corridor was opened between
Armenia and Karabakh, which was very important. At that time Armenians
again united for some time, but unfortunately that did not last long and
the process of this split is still going on today.

[Correspondent] Do you think that the Armenians stood the test of war, but
are not able to stand the test of peace?

[Sefelyan] I agree with this idea in the sense that we are unable to
develop, we cannot become strong. I think the reason for this is clear:
external forces are responsible for the situation which has arisen, though
there are also Armenians promoting the implementation of these programmes.
The goal is to weaken Armenia, because if one day we managed to unite, we
would become a problem not only for our regional neighbours, but also for
the whole world. To date we have not managed to achieve everything we
wanted to, and we are to blame for this. Nevertheless, I have a feeling
that this is not the worst period of time for us, and we still have a
chance to become stronger as a nation.

[Correspondent] The processes going on in the country are really dramatic.
Nine years ago it was difficult to imagine that those who liberated Shushi,
the heroes of the Karabakh war, would be in different camps and hold
different positions. Could you have imagined at that time that there would
be a split between the battle commanders? This is not a problem of
individuals at all. The problem lies deeper, it is a question of the moral
values of the nation.

[Sefelyan] If we take the lads who really took part in military action,
there is no split amongst them. But the authorities in our country have
repeated so often that military servicemen should not go in for politics
that these lads have always appeared in the circles of influence of one
political force or another. I think it is nonsense that military servicemen
should not go in for politics. They forget that 10 years ago, when an
Armenian man took up arms and went to fight, at that time he went in for
politics. An officer can go in for politics and not use his post and
abilities for political goals. But there must be a strict division between
these things. We go in for politics within the framework of law and order
and respecting laws. External forces, and probably the most venerable
institution in our country are trying to cause the split in our ranks which
you mentioned. Today these efforts have become more active and we,
servicemen, should not give in to provocation. I would like to add that I
do not see any ideological basis for a split. The split is nevertheless
happening. In such a case, politicians, not military men are responsible.

[Correspondent] Some servicemen assumed the right to do what they wanted,
using their military records as the justification for this.

[Sefelyan] We undoubtedly condemn such actions. We condemn much of what
Samvel Babayan did, he made a lot of mistakes. But the committee does not
defend Samvel Babayan's personality at all. We are defending a figure, a
symbol, created at the expense of the efforts and privations of the whole
nation. Such a figure has become a national treasure, the existence of
which lightened our load during the military actions which started in the
summer of 1992 up to 1994, when we had an established defence army. So we
are not defending the personality of Samvel Babayan, but the commander of a
victorious army, who is today being held in Shushi prison. In the same
prison where he was held 10 years ago by the Turks. This is a suppression
of our spirit - first he is proclaimed as a hero, then declared a traitor
and put into Shushi prison. Why did they make him a general? He did not
need it. I think they are more guilty than Samvel Babayan.

But behind all this we see a more serious danger: the return of the
liberated territories. All the political forces seem to agree with the fact
that we have to make some concessions. These territories today need
protection. That is why Samvel Babayan should be released. As for his guilt
in the terrorist act committed, we are sure that he did not give such an
order. I do not condemn Arkadiy Gukasyan. A whole programme is operating
here, in which the 27 October [1999 shootings in Armenian parliament] and
22 March [2000 attempt on life of Karabakh President Arkadiy Gukasyan] are
undoubtedly linked. Samvel is not guilty of this crime.

[Correspondent] Protection of the liberated territories really is a very
serious problem and the position of political forces compels us to be on
the alert. I think we should not link it with Babayan's personality, as
there will be strong forces in Armenia and in Karabakh able and ready to
provide this protection.

[Sefelyan] Undoubtedly, what is at issue here is not just Babayan. I am also
sure that there are strong forces in Armenia and they will manage to unite.
I am also sure that we, as a nation, will be able to stop the destructive
processes going on in Armenia today.

Today, on the day of Shushi's liberation, I would like to call on all
journalists and ask that not only the 9 May be celebrated, but also all the
other dates connected with the liberation of the seven regions. Let us
recall how this happened, how happy we were and fully appreciate the
significance of the fact that Armenian land has returned to its real owner.

In taking leave of Zhirayr, he answered bitterly when asked if he has
Armenian citizenship: "I have lived in Armenia for 10 years, but have not
yet obtained citizenship. Any rich man can build a kindergarten or
drugstore and obtain citizenship. In my case, it would seem that I am not
worthy of this. Nothing can be done - that is the way we Armenians are.

Source: Golos Armenii, Yerevan, in Russian, May 8 2001

A.R.

06-03-2004, 12:37 AM

Baron, it obvious you have a "bitter taste" in your mouth for Tashnags...

A.R.

06-03-2004, 01:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Dants
The gymnasium was COVERED with at least 30 flags of Armenia., including a HUGE one (about the size of half the gym wall) right behind the podium.

Nari
Reminds one of Grey Wolves and Turks in general. Ara Baliozian is right when he says many of us are still Ottomanized.

Thanks for the report Paron, although nothing unexpected...

AR
Armenian flags how scary :laugh:

A.R.

06-03-2004, 01:53 AM

It is the 35th birthday of the ARF soldier, Vigen Zakarian who died like a
hero at the war of
Artsakh.
Vigen Zakarian was born in Beirut and was a member of the Lebanese Youth
Union (LYU). He
took an active part in preservation of the Armenian identity in Lebanon.
He arrived in Armenia in 1992 to participate in the Artsakh defense, then
he headed for Shushi to
fight for the liberation of Shushi. He died the same year, on May 8, 1992
during liberation of
Zarislu village near Shushi. He is buried in the Yerablur pantheon next to
his friends.
One of the Tsakhkadzor school classes has been named after Vigen Zakarian.
In addition, the
central hall of LYU has also been named after him. Vigen Zakarian was
presented with the medal
of courage.
"I want Ararat, I want freedom, independent and beautiful Armenia.
I want to see and kiss the land where Armenian peasants live, where
Armenian soldiers are, where
Armenian revolutionary blood rests," reads Zakarian's diary. He came to
Armenia not only to see
and defend but to die for the freedom of his motherland.

YERKIR

http://www.zavarian.org/en/artsakh/martyrs.asp?mID=1

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/june_july/politics003.htm

A.R.

06-03-2004, 02:07 AM

Lets see what the ENEMY azeris refer to the Armenians of Artsakh as...
The Enemy Azeris refer to Karabakh Armenians
as "Dashnak Separatists."

http://eng.kavkaz.memo.ru/newstext/engnews/id/644232.html

Tres Bien

06-03-2004, 02:09 AM

Thank you indeed Baron D. very intresting reading.

If i am not misstaking, the dashnagtsakan of the diaspora was boycotting , and working agains soviet armenia because of it's "communism rule", the dashnags were complaining about how the didin't speak about the armenian genoicide in soviet armenia but at least people got a decent education, and shaped the armenian people in high cultural schooling.
but what were they doing ? besides beeing occupied with speaking badly about soviet- armenia!

A.R.

06-03-2004, 02:50 AM

Dro, born in an Armenian part of western Turkey, was trained as a soldier in the Tsarist Russian army and decorated by the Tsar for bravery fighting the Turks in World War I. But when Russia withdrew from the war in 1918, Dro became a general in the new Armenian army. In the brief First Republic of Armenia from 1918 to 1920, he served as minister of war. After the Turks and Soviet Russians invaded again in 1920 and divided Armenia between them, Dro fled to Romania, where he lived until the end of World War II.

During this period, the anti-communist Dro had been accused of collaborating with the Nazis, although Armenian scholars say Dro only used his influence as a former military leader admired by the Germans to prevent Armenians from becoming victims of the Nazis.

"He was not a Nazi," said Professor Richard Hovannisian. "His main concern was the support and rescue of the Armenian people."

After the war, Dro lived in Beirut and then Watertown, remaining active as an Armenian nationalist until his death in 1956.

Dro's widow, who is wheelchair-bound and won't make the trip later this month to Armenia, admitted she has mixed feelings about the fulfillment of her husband's wish for repatriation.

"I feel that part of me is not going to be here anymore," Gayane Kanayan said. "But the government invited us to do this and we feel honored. He would be very happy. He loved his country so much that I have no right to say no."

"Dro represents the emerging Armenian desire to no longer be subservient, to stand up and resist, Dro represents the first generation of young Armenians who believed that only with force and weapons was it possible to gain Armenian freedom"

UCLA History Professor Richard Hovannisian

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 08:47 AM

Ok, we have 25 articles about the Tashnagtsootyoon now. Well, that's nice, I guess. You do not really refer to anything I say, except in the last one, which cites Richard Hovannisian, himself a Tashnag to my knowledge.

Tres Bien, what was done then, in the Soviet era, is now done. I point out the past only to show that there is a certain trend to change history. As for who did what, I don't care anymore, because it no longer is relevant to me. Thew new generation was not involved in the Cold War era. We have new things to work on.

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 08:54 AM

Oh, and in no ways do I want to discredit Richard Hovannisian as a historian in the above post. Just pointing out something.

Besides that, A.R., if the tashnagtsootyoon here hadn't tried so hard to put a bitter taste in my mouth, things may have been different. I can't help but question their priorities sometimes. Their REAL priorities, the ones they seem to be working for. Don't give me "azad, angakh, miatsyal Hayastan!!!!!". We've all heard that one.

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 08:58 AM

Also, it is very normal for Azeris or Turks to blame any attacks on tashnags, because in the international community, the tashnagtsootyoon, whether we like it or not and whether we agree with it or not, is somewhat affiliated with terrorism. The Tashnags were also despised in the Soviet Union, because of their nationalism, so you can see where the Azeris took that from.

If you hadn't yet noticed, there is a VERY SUBTLE smear campaign against the Armenians in the Azeri media.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 10:35 AM

Ok, we have 25 articles about the Tashnagtsootyoon now.

AR
No, I only coun`t three...

Well, that's nice, I guess. You do not really refer to anything I say, except in the last one, which cites Richard Hovannisian, himself a Tashnag to my knowledge.

AR
Do you want me to cite turk or azeri sources? How bout some commie anti
Tashnag propaganda and lies sources?

Besides that, A.R., if the tashnagtsootyoon here hadn't tried so hard to put a bitter taste in my mouth

AR
Who are you? A Ramkavar? I met alot of Ramkavars with "bitter taste"
in their mouth... Your only 18 years old you we taught to have that
"bitter taste" in your mouth...

Also, it is very normal for Azeris or Turks to blame any attacks on tashnags, because in the international community, the tashnagtsootyoon, whether we like it or not and whether we agree with it or not, is somewhat affiliated with terrorism.

AR
Proof show us proof of what you say... Non turkish or azeri sources please... Dashnaktsutiun is a respected around the world and is THE
Armenian political party, these are just facts...

The Tashnags were also despised in the Soviet Union, because of their nationalism, so you can see where the Azeris took that from.

AR
The Dashnaks where the ONLY ones fighting for a
INDEPENDANT Armenia... turks and azeris have rabid hatred for Tashnaks.
The enemies of Armenia have a rabid hatred for Tashnags, these are
facts... "Soviet" Armenia was Armenia under OCCUPATION!!
Long live free and INDEPENDANT Armenia!!

If you hadn't yet noticed, there is a VERY SUBTLE smear campaign against the Armenians in the Azeri media.

AR
Very subtle? That is a UNDER statement...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 10:41 AM

The Ramgavars have also left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Why? Because of what you just did. "ONLY TASHNAGS ARE THE BEST", or "ONLY RAMGAVARS ARE THE BEST". It's a bullsh*t attitude that gets us nowhere.

Look, a tashnag friend of mine was advised to not do the "yertoom" because she wants to have a career in canadian diplomacy. I'm not making things up here.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 10:58 AM

The Ramgavars have also left a bitter taste in my mouth.

AR
When did I say that? I have no "bitter taste" in my mouth, it is YOU with
the "bitter taste" in your mouth...

Why? Because of what you just did. "ONLY TASHNAGS ARE THE BEST", or "ONLY RAMGAVARS ARE THE BEST". It's a bullsh*t attitude that gets us nowhere.

AR
This has nothing to do with that and you know it... You are a Ramkavar
or your family is Ramkavrs, don`t play games... What did I do? I state
FACTS, do you understand? You are a self proclaimed "tashnag basher"
you attitude will get you no where...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:02 AM

I said that the Ramgavars have left a bitter taste in MY mouth, not yours...
and when I said "tashnag basher", I put a sarcastic face next to it because that's what I'm accused of everytime I want to talk about something related to the tashnagtsootyoon...

Ok, you know what? I give up! You got me!

I CONFESS!! I AM A RAMGAVAR!!!! MY FATHER IS THE HEAD OF THE RAMGAVARS!!! I ONCE ATTEMPTED TO PLANT A BOMB AT SOURP HAGOP VARJARAN!!!!! GETSÉ RAMGAVAROOOOTYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh......

Well, I guess the tashnagtsootyoon is like any other political party. For every smart person that's able to TRULY discuss the subject, there are 2000 others like you who resort to rhetoric and petty assumptions.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:13 AM

I said that the Ramgavars have left a bitter taste in MY mouth, not yours...
and when I said "tashnag basher", I put a sarcastic face next to it because that's what I'm accused of everytime I want to talk about something related to the tashnagtsootyoon...

AR
Their is nothing sarcastic about your posts...

Ok, you know what? I give up! You got me!

I CONFESS!! I AM A RAMGAVAR!!!! MY FATHER IS THE HEAD OF THE RAMGAVARS!!! I ONCE ATTEMPTED TO PLANT A BOMB AT SOURP HAGOP VARJARAN!!!!! GETSÉ RAMGAVAROOOOTYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

AR
Your spazzing...

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh......

AR
siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iigh......

Well, I guess the tashnagtsootyoon is like any other political party. For every smart person that's able to TRULY discuss the subject, there are 2000 others like you who resort to rhetoric and petty assumptions.

AR
I have read your posts, I have no petty assumptions, you come from
a Ramkavar family and that is why you have that "bitter taste"
in your mouth toward Tashnaks...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:16 AM

lol, once again, you assume I come from a Ramgavar family. That is a petty assumption. I come from a family with no political affiliation, except the fact that my mother's mother's family was hardcore Tashnagtsagan.

You cannot admit that the tashnagtsootyoon in Montreal MIGHT have done something wrong, that would leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

Inch vor e, oozadzt havada. Koo hedt khoselen arten degh bidi chi hasnink.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:20 AM

It would be highly idiotic of me to intentionally bring up erroneous historical facts to “demolish” an organization,

AR
I have already exposed your "historical facts" as AGBU Ramkavar commie propganda and lies... Demolish? Listen kid many have tried and all have failed, but keep trying, please try your hardest...

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:24 AM

lol, once again, you assume I come from a Ramgavar family. That is a petty assumption. I come from a family with no political affiliation, except the fact that my mother's mother's family was hardcore Tashnagtsagan.

AR
The AGBU school you went to taught you to have that "bitter taste"
and taught you propaganda and lies about Tashnkas...The AGBU is run by Ramkavars...

You cannot admit that the tashnagtsootyoon in Montreal MIGHT have done something wrong, that would leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

AR
What is it? Spit it out already...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:24 AM

Oh my. You're a different breed. The word "demolish" is in quotation marks, meaning that I have no intention of doing so...but then again, it's much easier to take whatever you want of a sentence and reply with a statement like you just did, right?

"AGBU ramkavar commie propaganda"...and I am supposed to believe that this is a man who truly believes in "miootyoone zorootyoon e"? Some people are still not over the Cold War. Quite sad really.

dusken

06-03-2004, 11:30 AM

I have never heard of AGBU schools even mentioning political parties.

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:35 AM

There are many Ramgavars involved in AGBU, that is true. And God knows that I've spoken out against that many many times. But there was a time where there were Tashnags too on AGBU's central board. That's what the AGBU is about. It has to be HAMAhaygagan. It's not in that state now, because of obvious reasons, but it will hopefully return to it.

However, in my 11 years of Alex Manoogian varjaran, NEVER has a teacher even mentioned Tashnagtsootyoon or Ramgavarootyoon, EXCEPT in the context of history, as in "the first goosagtsootyoons to fight against the Ottoman Empire were the Hnchagyans, the Tashnagtsootyoon and the Ramgavars". Had anybody said anything more, God knows that my parents would be the first to complain.

Let me just give you one example of something that has left a bitter taste in my mouth. This April 24, the AGBU scouts proposed to the HMEM scouts to lay a wreath together at the "hooshartsan". The proposition was refused, for no obvious reason.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:35 AM

Oh my. You're a different breed. The word "demolish" is in quotation marks, meaning that I have no intention of doing so...but then again, it's much easier to take whatever you want of a sentence and reply with a statement like you just did, right?

AR
I exposed your "historical facts" as propaganda and lies.. A quote below
from Baron... Your words give you away... Your one and only goal is
to slander The Dashnaktsutiun... You have no proof or facts just hot air...

"tashnagtsootyoon, whether we like it or not and whether we agree with it or not, is somewhat affiliated with terrorism." Baron

"AGBU ramkavar commie propaganda"...and I am supposed to believe that this is a man who truly believes in "miootyoone zorootyoon e"? Some people are still not over the Cold War. Quite sad really.

AR
I`am over it "buddy" it you who is not over it...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:39 AM

Oh, it must be stated however, that a friend of mine, who is a scouts leader at HMEM, seemed angry that HMEM had refused. So yes, it's something at the upper level.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:43 AM

There are many Ramgavars involved in AGBU, that is true. And God knows that I've spoken out against that many many times.

AR
The Ramkavars RUN AGBU..

But there was a time where there were Tashnags too on AGBU's central board.

AR
Not any more... The Ramkavars run AGBU

However, in my 11 years of Alex Manoogian varjaran, NEVER has a teacher even mentioned Tashnagtsootyoon or Ramgavarootyoon, EXCEPT in the context of history,

AR
Yes "history" the Ramkavar version of History.. That is why you
dislike the Great Armenian geneal DRO and spread propaganda about him..

Let me just give you one example of something that has left a bitter taste in my mouth. This April 24, the AGBU scouts proposed to the HMEM scouts to lay a wreath together at the "hooshartsan". The proposition was refused, for no obvious reason.

AR
The AGBU scouts don`t even come out to protest on April 24th here
it is all HMEM scouts, does that give me a reason to have a "bitter taste" in my mouth? I don`t have a "bitter taste" in my mouth, to each his own...

dusken

06-03-2004, 11:46 AM

The AGBU scouts don`t even come out to protest on April 24th here
it is all HMEM scouts, does that give me a reason to have a "bitter taste" in my mouth? I don`t have a "bitter taste" in my mouth, to each his own...

Commemoration does not always have to take the form of a protest.

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 11:51 AM

First off, I already said that the tashnags are no longer on the AGBU central board.
Second, there might be many ramgavars at the head of AGBU, but the volunteers, those who organize scouting, yevayln, are members of the AGBU and nothing else. This, of course, is based on my own observations in Montreal.
Third, all I've learned about DRO, I've learned it after leaving Alex Manoogian, so that argument doesn't hold either. And I don't dislike Dro the general. I just question Dro the politician.
And last, a question which might solve everything: where are you from?

A.R.

06-03-2004, 11:59 AM

I`am from DC but I don`t see how that "might solve everything"

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 12:02 PM

Well if you were from good ole Haleb for example, you would've had the Haleb mentality. I'm born in Haleb myself, but they have one weird way of thinking sometimes.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 12:05 PM

Well if you were from good ole Haleb for example, you would've had the Haleb mentality. I'm born in Haleb myself, but they have one weird way of thinking sometimes

AR
Both my parents are born in Haleb... I have cousins, aunts, uncles
their now...

xBaron Dants

06-03-2004, 12:13 PM

Same here. But the stories I've heard about the needless bickering that occurs between everyone, ikh...I am not left with a good impression

Good food though. :D

Tres Bien

06-03-2004, 02:54 PM

Tres Bien, what was done then, in the Soviet era, is now done. I point out the past only to show that there is a certain trend to change history. As for who did what, I don't care anymore, because it no longer is relevant to me. Thew new generation was not involved in the Cold War era. We have new things to work on.

the dashnags are saying one thing and doing another, that was my point.
while bashing armenia, they themselves never did anything to work with the recognizstion of the genocide.

Be it then,during soviet-union or now, they are the same political party.
if dasghnagtsakan'ere are so patrotic armenians , why did they work against/boycott soviet-armenia?
dashags are like capitalists, they would sell their own country (to americans)just to get in power.

A.R.

06-03-2004, 03:15 PM

the dashnags are saying one thing and doing another, that was my point.

AR
Show us proof and facts to make your case...

while bashing armenia, they themselves never did anything to work with the recognizstion of the genocide.

AR
This is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while... Do you know the ANC?
ANC who has been fighting tooth and nail for recognition of the Armenian Genocide around the world... ANC = Dashnaktsutiun

Be it then,during soviet-union or now, they are the same political party.
if dasghnagtsakan'ere are so patrotic armenians , why did they work against/boycott soviet-armenia?

AR
You and your "soviet" Armenia and Baron says Dashnaks live in the past, HA!
We crushed the Soviet Commies and Freed Armenia!!! Free and INDEPENDENT Armenia! The colors of Dashnaktsutiun are flying over Armenia
not some filthy Commie occupation flag/rag, burn with rage!!!!!!!!!!!!! :naughty:

dashags are like capitalists, they would sell their own country (to americans)just to get in power.

AR
Dashnaks are not capitalists, you really should learn some facts
before you make a fool of yourself...

A.R.

06-03-2004, 03:23 PM

The future of Armenia depends on selection of the development route. In terms of the present reality the possible route for selection are the following.

First, Armenia can once again ultimately merge with an empire. Presently, such this type of empire capabilities are with Russia. In the political field of Armenia, such an option is favored by the Communist Party of Armenia.

Secondly, Armenia can resort to US, fitting into the US-designed world model (like the countries of South America). The condition is to forget the history and system of values (forget is covered by an euphemism) and construct a country from zero. This option is favored by Armenian National Movement with its satellites.

Thirdly, Armenia can become a national country, overcoming periodical difficulties and reviving the concept of Armenian ideology. This option is favored
by ARF Dashnaktsutiun with its supporters.Today Armenia is going thru a transitional period where the first and the second options are being forwarded.

Samvel Evoyan (Droshak)

dstyle

06-03-2004, 06:17 PM

Haha this is hillarious.

nairi

06-04-2004, 01:48 PM

The colors of Dashnaktsutiun are flying over Armenia
not some filthy Commie occupation flag/rag, burn with rage!!!!!!!!!!!!! :naughty:

And this is exactly the problem with Dashnaks: they want to take over. They know no democracy, just like the Soviet Union. From that perspective, Dashnaks are no better that Soviets, or for that matter Ottomans. Get over it.

xBaron Dants

06-04-2004, 01:52 PM

lol! The Dashnaktsutyun: the unsung heroes of the Cold War.

The fall of the Soviet Union had nothing to do with ethnic conflicts, corruption, and a failed economy. No no....that was all secondary. It was the DASHNAKS who crushed the Soviet Union.

.......siiiiiiiiiigh.........

dstyle

06-04-2004, 02:37 PM

No offense to anyone, I'm sure most of you will take offense but oh well. If the ARF wanted too take over Armenia it would have already been done.
We'll leave our being Armenian to the Ramgavars arrrr the AGBU, then most of us would be talking Turkish instead of Armenian.
sighhhh

A.R.

06-04-2004, 06:14 PM

See the true face of the Ramkavars below...

"It is time to say what we used not to say. I believe the reason for our misunderstandings is that we are two different nations. Armenia belongs to the Caucasus and the Diaspora with its Constantinople roots and various influences is completely different. We are similar in origins, in language, but quite opposite in philosophies."

RAMKAVAR central headquarter co-president, literature critic Yervand Azatian. Ramgavar co president Yervand Azatian seems to be determined to keep the Armenian nation divided...
________________________

Internal Ramkavar Fascism

By Taron Mkhitarian

Disseminating hatred between people and dividing a nation has always caused negative, if not destructive, results.

Armenians have occasional witnessed such phenomena throughout their history. Moreover, the Genocide of 1915 is the bloody consequence of that phenomenon.

However, if it used to be initiated by an external force like fascism, recently certain individuals from inside the nation have gone for that.
In the 25th issue of the Orer monthly which is published in Europe, the co-president of Democratic Liberal Party {Ramgavar} (DLP) central headquarter, literature critic Yervand Azatian completely destroyed all images and formulations of national unity, possibilities, and joint efforts.

"It is time to say what we used not to say. I believe the reason for our misunderstandings is that we are two different nations. Armenia belongs to the Caucasus and the Diaspora with its Constantinople roots and various influences is completely different. We are similar in origins, in language, but quite opposite in philosophies." This formulation can probably compete with only Levon Ter-Petrosian's phrase about "orange eaters" and local Armenians.

Yervand Azatian's idea is another case of separation between the two branches of Armenians among similar attempts of the Soviet rule and former authorities.

First of all, Yervand Azatian in his haste to separate Armenians into different nations forgot about the Iranian Armenians who have never been Caucasian. This is just a note. But in fact, the danger of Azatian's opinion is much deeper and noteworthy, otherwise it may spread around and get out of control.

He forgets that Armenians have one, general motherland which is the uniting factor for any nation. In these terms, it does not matter if a part of the homeland is occupied or not. In this case, the Diaspora did not willingly leave the Armenia and this separation cannot split the nation. On the other hand, the Diaspora was formed due to that deportation, as well a new meaning was given to Azatian's "Caucasian Armenia."

Today, every third resident of Armenia has Western Armenian origins. In addition, many of us have relatives in Diaspora.
If the Diaspora has "Constantinople roots," what does it make the Armenians who emigrated from Cilicia and other parts of Western Armenia? The Armenian culture of Constantinople has truly much contributed to the Western Armenian branch, but it cannot be considered comprehensive.

Azatian ignores the fact that the whole cultural background, wealth, history, national and religious traditions of Armenians are common. Nobody can be proclaimed to be its only possessor. And this kind of cultural, spiritual field is another criterion for a nation as one.
The Diaspora is an part of our nation, but not as a separate unit.

The very presentation of the Diaspora as a separate, split unit endangers the political issues of our country which are related to the recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
The Diaspora is not a landless unit but a part of Armenia brutally torn away from the motherland by the Genocide.

Such separations are especially unwelcome now that the modern technologies are erasing boundaries and attempts are made to make our nation more united.

As a result of various segregations a whole nation in the Balkans underwent the tragedy of ethnic cleansing. The same nation split into pieces on religious basis and people were full of hatred to each other.
We would advise this modern fascism ideologist and moreover a national party leader to forget that thesis the sooner the better.

http://www.yerkir.am/eng/index.php?sub=newspaper_arm&exp=policy&month=03&year=2004&number=12&id=3683

A.R.

06-04-2004, 07:18 PM

And this is exactly the problem with Dashnaks: they want to take over.

AR
Isn`t that the goal of mostly all political
parties around the world? DUHHH...

They know no democracy just like the Soviet Union. From that perspective, Dashnaks are no better that Soviets, or for that matter Ottomans.

AR
That is ludacris...

Get over it.

AR
Yawn....

A.R.

06-04-2004, 07:30 PM

lol! The Dashnaktsutyun: the unsung heroes of the Cold War.

AR
Whats so funny?

The fall of the Soviet Union had nothing to do with ethnic conflicts, corruption, and a failed economy. No no....that was all secondary. It was the DASHNAKS who crushed the Soviet Union.

AR
What colors are flying over once OCCUPIED "Soviet"
Armenia? You know those same colors Ramkavar AGBU would have nothing
to do with before INDEPENDENCE? You know the "Dashnak Flag" who
during INDEPENDENCE the Ramkavars had to ask Dashnaks to "borrow"
cause they did`nt have one :wave: These are just facts...
This is the REAL history of the TRI Color we love so much :eek:

.......siiiiiiiiiigh.........

AR
.......Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

A.R.

06-04-2004, 07:47 PM

xBaron Dants

06-04-2004, 11:19 PM

umm, first off, nobody could leave the fate of Armenia politically in the hands of the AGBU, because the AGBU's not a political party. Here's an intereting tidbit: Zoravar Antranig's godfather at his wedding was none other than Boghos Nubar Pasha....founder of the AGBU. So to say that the AGBU's priorities would lead to a Turkish-speaking Armenia is sheer idiocy. Same goes for the Ramkavars, or the Hnchakians. They also fought the Ottoman Empire.

The tri-coloured flag is the flag of the first Republic. Not the flag of Khatissian and ten other people. The type of rah rah holier than thou attitude that you're just displaying is the reason why we're still not getting anywhere.

And ummm, the Dashnaks could take over Armenia if they wanted to? Well, they formed the first circumstancial government in 1918...weren't able to keep that. Tried to take it over around 1994, got thrown in jail....so yea, I'm not really following there. g'nite!

xBaron Dants

06-04-2004, 11:46 PM

Ooh, and here's an interesting bedtime story I just heard today. (fake names will be used)

Today, at an AGBU scouting joghov with 3 other leaders, I brought the point of doing something with the HMEM scouts. Everyone was for it, but one person said: "well, we just have to hope that they don't think we're the ennemies or anything."
I asked: what do you mean?
She said: Well, you know Hagop, one of our kayligs?
I said: yes
she said: well, his 12 year-old brother Sevag is a scout at HMEM, and 2 weeks ago, when the AGBU showed that documentary about Khachaturian, they came to watch it with the whole family.
I said: so?
She said: Well, my mom went to say hi to them, and Sevag wouldn't even answer. His mom said that he hates AGBU, because the AGBU are the ennemies for him. And during the whole video, he was angry, and just asked to leave the whooole time.

So yea, that's some good training going on there. While we're ripping our a$$es trying to do something together, they're brainwashing their kids to HATE us? Hooray! This can ONLY have positive impacts for Armenians right?

.......and a siiiiiiiiiigh yet again......

A.R.

06-05-2004, 12:51 AM

So yea, that's some good training going on there. While we're ripping our a$$es trying to do something together, they're brainwashing their kids to HATE us? Hooray! This can ONLY have positive impacts for Armenians right?

AR
It is you who is full of hate, just reading your first post I can feel your hatred toward Dashnaks... YOU are raised with hate toward Dashnaks... You hate Dashnaks but it`s all good kid... Look in the mirror before you point your finger self proclamied "Tashnag Basher"... Their is no "together" as long as you have that "bitter taste" in your mouth toward Dashnaks handed down from generation to generation, got it?

umm, first off, nobody could leave the fate of Armenia politically in the hands of the AGBU, because the AGBU's not a political party.

AR
AGBU is RUN by a political party, the Ramkavars...

The tri-coloured flag is the flag of the first Republic. Not the flag of Khatissian and ten other people. The type of rah rah holier than thou attitude that you're just displaying is the reason why we're still not getting anywhere.

AR
The Tri Color has always been the colors of Dashnaktsutiun before
and after Armenian independence but you can go ahead and
kidd yourself into thinking otherwise if it makes you feel better....

And ummm, the Dashnaks could take over Armenia if they wanted to? Well, they formed the first circumstancial government in 1918...weren't able to keep that. Tried to take it over around 1994, got thrown in jail....so yea, I'm not really following there. g'nite!

AR
Spazzing again... Thrown in jail by TRAITORS...
Those day are gone forever kid...

Today, at an AGBU scouting joghov with 3 other leaders, I brought the point of doing something with the HMEM scouts. Everyone was for it, but one person said: "well, we just have to hope that they don't think we're the ennemies or anything."
I asked: what do you mean?
She said: Well, you know Hagop, one of our kayligs?
I said: yes
she said: well, his 12 year-old brother Sevag is a scout at HMEM, and 2 weeks ago, when the AGBU showed that documentary about Khachaturian, they came to watch it with the whole family.
I said: so?
She said: Well, my mom went to say hi to them, and Sevag wouldn't even answer. His mom said that he hates AGBU, because the AGBU are the ennemies for him. And during the whole video, he was angry, and just asked to leave the whooole time.

AR
What are you saying? Jibberish... Next time think before you call yourself
a "Tashnag Basher" go to Artsakh and tell them you are a "Tashnag basher"
and they will spit in your face...

.......and a siiiiiiiiiigh yet again......

AR
"siiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh" till you turn blue in the face....

A.R.

06-05-2004, 01:04 AM

She said: Well, my mom went to say hi to them, and Sevag wouldn't even answer. His mom said that he hates AGBU, because the AGBU are the ennemies for him. And during the whole video, he was angry, and just asked to leave the whooole time.

AR
Sure we believe a self proclaimed "Tashnag Basher" [not]
They are guilty yet they accuse!

A.R.

06-05-2004, 01:56 AM

PRELACY CHURCHES BLESS THE TRICOLORS
ON THE OCCASION OF MAY 28TH ANNIVERSARY
The parishes of the Eastern Prelacy performed a special Blessing of the
Flag ceremony last Sunday, May 30, on the occasion of the 86th anniversary
of the first Armenian Republic, which was proclaimed on May 28, 1918.
The ceremony, in most parishes, took place with the participation of the
HMEM scouts.

"Bless, O Lord, this [Tri Color] flag in order that as the rainbow-which shone in the
skies over Mt. Ararat after the deluge-became the sign of your eternal
covenant with man, likewise, this flag, after the huge floods of our blood,
becomes the symbol of our indissoluble covenant with you. . Bless, O Lord,
our homeland, where you first established the paradise of happiness, which
was then for long centuries reduced to a place of ruins by our impious
enemies. Let the fountains flow again for the enjoyment of all. . Sanctify
our churches and monasteries, seminaries and schools in Armenia (as well as
in the Armenian Diaspora) and fortify their frontiers with your protection
against the assaults of enemies. Bless, O Lord, all that is good in our
country, first and foremost her name, Armenia."

From the Prayer of Thanksgiving for the Republic of Armenia, prepared in
1920 by Archbishop Torkom Koushagian in Cairo, Egypt.

dstyle

06-05-2004, 06:39 AM

Seriously Baron AR is right, you talk about people spewing hate but this all started from you. About the Turkish link and AGBU, just like you have your stories from Montreal, I have my stories from LA, so don't tell me I'm wrong without seeing what I have.
About 1994. Your xxxxing kidding me right. I can't even begin too explain on how many levels what you said was wrong. Your hate spewing is amazing, especially that you claim that your not.

xBaron Dants

06-05-2004, 07:35 AM

I have said many, many times that what I say is based on what I see in Montreal, and it can be very different other places. I'm not spewing anything...I do this for the sake of raising a few issues that we might have as a people, and of which we can never speak of it seems, yet it all turns personal in the end. It's all fine and dandy to say "let's accept that we do things differently, and let's work together" but that has never happened, and at least where I live, the trend is getting worse and worse.
I might come off as a hate spewer off the net, and I apologize for that. If you knew me as a person, you'd see who I really am. and what my intentions are.

Also, the Tashnagtsootyoon IS a political party just like the Republicans and the Dems are questioned in the States, the Labour Party in Britain, etc...
. We have a responsibility, if you will, to question it, because we know what a political party which we can't question can turn out to be.
Anyways, last post on my part in this thread.

A.R.

06-09-2004, 05:55 PM

Lies And The Liars Who Tell Them...

Parade of falsifications or Yeghia Nacharian-2

By Sargis Barseghian

Recently, the Azg [Ramkavar] daily published a review on Stepan Poghosian’s book ''Looking Back for the Sake of today and Tomorrow''. The author of the review considers the book exclusive. The exclusiveness is explained in the following way: ''It is a study on the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, a new look at the history of the ARF''.

First of all we would like to note that it is certainly not a study on ARF, but more of a comprehensive gossip, full of false historical events, falsification and slander.

Considering this kind of ''look'' at the history of the ARF as something new is already another falsification, since there have always been a lot of ARF history falsifiers. Ideologists of both Sultan, and Tsar, and Bolsheviks, and administration of the Armenian National Movement (ANM) throughout 113 years have aimed at that. Both foreign, and local falsifiers have been guided by the same reason, hatred towards powers carrying national values and pursuing national interests.

In this particular case of Poghosian’s ''book'' there is another, additional or, frankly saying, a more basic motivation for this kind of slander. It is about a serious sum that Mr. Poghosian received on the eve of parliamentary elections for publishing a ''book'' falsifying the history of ARF.

This explains not only the great number of published samples of the book, but also why it is freely distributed in scientific, educational institutions and even among soldiers. Some of the author’s past activities determine the impartiality and ''researchers'' interest.

In Soviet times this very Poghosian, being ruthless defender of communist regime and ideology, never felt embarrassed to mix historical facts and to report to authorities about people diverged from Soviet ideology. In 1991, during the notorious coup against Gorbachev, this very ruthless defender sent to Moscow a list of people, who, as he believed, must be immediately isolated for the sake of preserving Soviet authority in Armenia.

Members of the Karabakh Committee, its active supporters and active representatives of Armenian intelligentsia were in the list. After collapse of Soviet Union this'' historian with solid principles'' started seeking a new roof. He even applied for membership in ARF several times.

It is not worth while speaking about other human'' traits'' of this individual, since they do not directly concern this topic. However, we find worth mentioning that only a man with these ''traits'' could carry out this kind of order. Doubtlessly, there were, are and will be individuals and forces, whose political or other interests will spur them to hire writers for slandering their political or ideological adversaries.

Generally it is clear. It is also clear that on present conditions there are lots of people serving different political and other orders. But it is noteworthy that not a single real historian, real scientist took such steps. It was only done by a person, who had a long history of such activity.

As the well-known movie character would say: all ways of making money are acceptable, if it is not forbidden by law.

However, everybody should agree judging phenomena issuing from one’s own political and ideological principles that is one thing, but if somebody’s principles encourage him to slander and fake up reality: that is a different thing,. And wearing the mask of a scientist to carry out political orders of others by faking up reality is an absolutely different thing.

http://www.yerkir.am/eng/index.php?sub=newspaper_arm&exp=policy&month=09&year=2003&number=19&id=2698

hyedgha15

07-21-2005, 07:46 AM

I know im late on postin for about a year but, the only reason i support the tashnag party so much is because this: the other parties dont even recognize may 28 as the independence day of armenia, when all those brave soldiers gave their lives for something they believe in. Second, when the diaspora movement began, it was the tashnag party that gave a damn about the hay azk, that kept the armenian flag, when all the other parties would spit on it, who kept the armenian national anthem the way it was meant to be, the tashnag party started what was known as zenial baykar, when all the other parties wouldnt do sh!t these incredible people kept the armenian spirit alive by means of terrorism, yes terrorism, but what you might look at as terrorism i look at as patriotism, Hampig Sassounian, Lisbon 5, LA 5. Where are the other parties, some of them wouldnt even commemorate the armenian genocide on april 24 untill the late 50's. Im not saying the other parties are wrong, but everone always puts the guilt on the tashnag party. They send their kids to AYF, they have them join scouts, play sports in homenetmen and yet they degrade the Ho He Tah name every chance they get. The tashnagtsootyoon is 115 years old, and will continue to get older, and as the song goes..."Amenknal eezoor anchan, gah geh mena tashnagtsootyoon!"

nakharar

07-21-2005, 11:11 AM

these incredible people kept the armenian spirit alive by means of terrorism, yes terrorism, but what you might look at as terrorism i look at as patriotism, Hampig Sassounian, Lisbon 5, LA 5.

If killing innocent people is defined as Armenian spirit you can keep it.
Those losers lie either dead in the gutter or waste in prison. Some role models indeed! :mad:

hyedgha15

07-22-2005, 12:01 AM

when a whole world shuts you out, turns its back on you, and doesnt even give a flying fu*k about you, it is the only way. They are not innocent people, they all know the truth and they chose to deny it, if they are innocent then the modern day turk should accept the wrongdoings of their ancestors, and let justice be served, not make rules like going to prison for 10 years just for mentioning the word genocide. and you are right i will keep my heroes, and the tashnagtsootyoon will keep its heroes, because it is because of those heroes that we still have a little something that we can still call Armenia.

Red Brigade

07-24-2005, 08:04 AM

these incredible people kept the armenian spirit alive by means of terrorism, yes terrorism, but what you might look at as terrorism i look at as patriotism

These both ridiculous and incredible people fought against ASALA which is the main reason that the Armenians of Western Europe are still Armenians, and the world does know about the Armenian Genocide.They have indeed done much in the past, but their contribution not only is nonsignificant now, but it is against the Armenian interests since all those parties care for only one thing, which is to eat money from the people.
Those Dashnaks of the present have nothing to do with the real past Dashnaks.

hyedgha15

07-24-2005, 10:23 PM

Anonymouse

07-25-2005, 12:57 AM

there is no real point in posting and trying to make you all see the difference, because no matter what anyone does or says, you all will still have the same mindset you do. even when i were to say that it was the tashnagtsootyoon that kept the armenian flag, when others wanted to spit on it, that sang the words of the national anthem, when the rest wanted to change it, that commemorated april 24 every year while others wouldnt even remember such a date untill the late 1950's, that celebrates MAY 28 as the independence day of Armenia and not september what ever it is.

Yea, try living in the Soviet Union and see how well you are able to commemorate the genocide under Stalin. Sometimes it's wiser to think before you speak.

You then go on to claim the Dashnaks as the end all party, as that which has the answers to everything and did everything completely right. It sure was easy for the Dashnaks to commemorate the genocide when the Soviet Union banned them so they were guaranteed a virtual existence in the diaspora. Yea, that's why they deserve the credit for commemorating. When people subscribe to an idea or group that claims to have all the answers to everything, that is how deception occurs.

CatWoman

07-25-2005, 08:53 AM

hyedgha I wholeheartedly agree with you! But I recommend you stop posting in this thread cause it's only gonna get your blood pressure up. Dashnaks have done so much for Armenia and the Armenians that no other party has... They kept our diaspora alive... They built the first Armenian schools for the diaspora... They're Turkey's number one enemy, and that's for a reason... They're the reason behind the improvements we're seeing in Armenia today... but for whatever reason, we have this anti-dashnak spirit in this forum!

And nakharar, they didn't kill "innocent people"... they knew exactly who their targets were and they well deserved it.

winoman

07-25-2005, 10:17 AM

I'm not going to get into the debate per se - I do see some validity to the arguments of both sides though I for one am no fan of the Dashnags (or any of the IMO rather pathetic Armenian political parties). (Dashnags and ASALA are entirely two different things fundementally however) My Grandfather was very active in the Dashnags and with the ASALA sort of offshoot of his time...he obvioulsy believed in what he was doing and I think it was certainly worthwhile (as perhaps was an aspect of what ASALA did - but I don't believe that terroristic acts and [somewhat random/terroristic] murder can be condoned per se -also their "leadership" were just nuts and pshycopathic IMO - Nemesis was much more focused and justifyable i believe)...however you might be curious to know that he strongly advocated that none of his children or grandchildren be involved in the organization in any way..

Red Brigade

07-25-2005, 04:49 PM

Those Dashnaks of the past have done many mistakes , but at least i could justify the stupidity of their actions because they at least fought for the independence.However their diplomacy was such ridiculous and childish, that it costed us very much.Their stupidity is the reason that the Soviets helped Kemal Ataturk, instead of us.

As for the present so called ''Dashanks'',they are not only evil because they eat the money of the people, like the rest of the parties, but they are traitors of the nation , since they have started to murder ASALA members , because they felt ''threatened'' by them, since ASALA has started to gain too much support by the diaspora and the ''poor'' so called Dashnaks felt that they would lose their influence and capital of the diaspora armenians.Not to mention that they are discriminating Hayastantsis and they prefer to have members wealthy $ Armenians , since the poor one's are of no use to them.
That more or less summarizes what Dashnaks are.
Not that the rest are any different.

Yea, try living in the Soviet Union and see how well you are able to commemorate the genocide under Stalin.

I wish that was the only foolish thing that Stalin did.You would be shocked if you knew that , that clown is the reason that the Soviets supported economically Kemal and as a result they won against Armenia and we lost Van.Although Dashank's diplomatic stupidity played a role as well.

hyedgha15

07-25-2005, 08:11 PM

you all can sit here and bash on the Tashnags and the Tashnagtsootyoon all you want it still doesnt change the facts on what they have done for Armenia, the Diaspora, and the Armenian cause. You want to say they eat the peoples money, your right, thats why they open schools, churches, organization, fund homenetmen scouts, homenetmen athletics, camps, and even elderly homes and most importantly ANCA. And i bet my life that everyone who posted on this matter attends homentmen events, attends the live concerts of Karnig, even take part in scouts, play on the sports teams, and yet when it comes to it still open their mouths to talk crap. No one even remembers the heroes of the past, the blood that was shed, you all can care less, but yet they do by writing poems, and singing patriotic songs. Once again bash all you want, but the outcome remains unchanged, they still lead the race to re-uniting Armenia once again. Oh and for all of you who want to bash about the terrorism thing... it was the great khrimyan hairig that said after attending the meeting..."Everyone went into the bowl with Spoons made of iron and steel and were able to fill their plates, while we went in with spoons made out of paper"

Garmeer Gabooyd Narenchakooyn... Togh Meeshd Abree Tashnagtsootyoon

Baron Dants

07-25-2005, 11:59 PM

Military might and terrorism are not to be confused.

And the mere fact that you think that they are "leading the race" to re-unite Armenians demonstrates that there is no real intention to re-unite Armenians. It wouldn't be a race if there were.

I posted this topic over a year ago now, and while I laugh at my rather sarcastic post, the point still stands. This party has become holy to many, and therefore, dangerous.

Baron Dants

07-26-2005, 12:10 AM

Speaking of opening churches...it's disgusting (well, not that surprising, but still a shame) how they have merged religion and politics, and how billions of catholics are able to have one pope, and we are stuck with two gatoghigos-s.. I know it's a good source of income, but come on...set your priorities people..

winoman

07-26-2005, 05:42 AM

that clown is the reason that the Soviets supported economically Kemal and as a result they won against Armenia and we lost Van.Although Dashank's diplomatic stupidity played a role as well.

The Soviets supported Kemal and the nationalists because in doing so they percieved that they were combating the British and British Imperial ambitions and because Ataturk convinced them that he was a socialist fighting against Imperialism. He duped them well. I seriously doubt that much of anything concerning the Armenians weighed into their decisions - Armenians were pretty much a non factor.

Red Brigade

07-26-2005, 07:59 AM

The Soviets supported Kemal and the nationalists because in doing so they percieved that they were combating the British and British Imperial ambitions and because Ataturk convinced them that he was a socialist fighting against Imperialism. He duped them well.

At the time that the Turks were asking the economic aid of the Soviets, Lenin was at his last days.

I have read a diary of a Turkish diplomat during the WWI (translated to Armenian) who went to the Soviet Minister of Foreign Affairs (Chichev i think ) , in order to convince the Russians that the Turks are fighting against the Imperialists and they need the aid of the Soviets.Chichev told him ''ok we shall help you but you must give Van to Armenia first''.
The Turkish diplomat tried hard to convince Chichev , but he was adamant and he didn't changed his opinion.They left Chichev's office in order to meet Stalin for a last attempt.Stalin told him''you can take anything you want , tell Chichev this is my order''.Chichev didn't had any option but to help them because of Stalin.

True or false i can't be sure.I will try to post you soon the author of the book.

I seriously doubt that much of anything concerning the Armenians weighed into their decisions - Armenians were pretty much a non factor.

Soviet Union demanded from Armenia ( and not only) to sign a treaty that : Armenia wouldn't let the Imperialist forces of England,France etc to use Armenia in order to attack Soviet Union.The Armenian politicians it seems thought that the Bolsheviks were just a temporary weak government and they prefered to stick with the Westerners and that costed us fataly.If it wasnt Dashank's stupidity to stick with the English, the Soviets would have helped us ,or at least not have helped the Turks, since we had the best trained Army of Transcaucasia.

hyedgha15

07-26-2005, 09:05 AM

If it wasnt for the Tashnags stupidity u say... if we dont join forces with the british there would be no more Hayastan to protect, Russia cared nothing for Armenia, if they did care anything they would not have handed Gharapagh to the Azeris later on, all Russia wanted to do was get close to turkey to spy on them, this is why during the Cuban missle crisis Russia had poured some of its army on the border of Armenia and turkey. Do you really think the earthquake of 88 was natural, do you know how many ex-KGB agents and old politicians who left Russia have spoken out that so many times that when the Chechens back then wanted liberation of their own that Gorbachov would stand up point with his finger and say, know your limits after all remember what happened to the Armenians in 88. And Baron Dants, when the going back to Armenia movement took its toll, most of the political parties in the middle east especially Lebanon, convinced the people to go, and when they went they took all their homes and their businesses, how is that for eating the peoples money... it makes me so mad that you guys would rather outway the good and just concentrate on the bad, you want to talk about how opening churches is disgusting, and by the sounds of it you dont know much about it cause we have 3 different churches, we have the armenian church, antilias church, and a holy see in Jerusalem which is headed by a patriarch. If it was not for the Genocide we would still only have one church...but after all that happened and during times of communism, there was no choice to make another see which they did, and dont give any bs excuse how the antilias church is run by politics from the dashnak party, the armenian church that i serve in is run by hnchaks, and most of Agbu and the Ramgavars run the other churches.

Red Brigade

07-26-2005, 10:32 AM

Russia cared nothing for Armenia

It wasn't Russia it was Soviet Union.Difference.

if they did care anything they would not have handed Gharapagh to the Azeris later on

Another act done by that ''genius'' called Stalin.That was done for strategic reasons in order to control the populations and to not be easy for the countries to declare ''independence'',by joining to the ranks of the Imperialist Capitalists .It was not done only to Armenia, so don't have the impression that those actions happened because they were ''anti-armenian''.

all Russia wanted to do was get close to turkey

First of all its not Russia , its Soviet Union.Second Turkey was in the North Atlantic Alliance , enemies of the Soviet Union.During the WWII , the Red Army was ''larvatz'' to start a war with Turkey ,because the Turks were helping secretely the Nazis.But that cunning Ataturk didn't officialy joined with the Nazis.

Do you really think the earthquake of 88 was natural,

Duh yes. :rolleyes:

dont give any bs excuse how the antilias church is run by politics from the dashnak party, the armenian church that i serve in is run by hnchaks, and most of Agbu and the Ramgavars run the other churches.

Exactly that is my point.All of them are using the Churches in order to sustain their corpses.

Thai-Samurai

07-27-2005, 02:29 AM

How was the 88 Earthquake not natural, I keep hearing that. Any clues?

winoman

07-27-2005, 06:10 AM

How was the 88 Earthquake not natural, I keep hearing that. Any clues?

Aliens in Yamukas?

Dave

07-27-2005, 10:53 AM

This is the first time I'm hearing that the 1988 earthquake wasn't natural, but on the other hand, I have heard that the second Asian earthquake was fake, because unlike the first earthquake which was weaker than the second one triggered an earthquake, but the second one didn't.

Who knows. Maybe it's just a conspiracy theory, or maybe not. If it really is true, it shows you that artificial earthquakes are not impossible.

hyedgha15

07-27-2005, 01:58 PM

there are no fault lines in Armenia for earthquakes to occur

Dave

07-27-2005, 07:44 PM

There have been earthquakes in Western Armenia in recent years, so earthquakes in Armenia are also possible.

Andranik

07-29-2005, 12:23 AM

[QUOTE=A.R.]go to Artsakh and tell them you are a "Tashnag basher"
and they will spit in your face...QUOTE]

who will spit in who's face? The ARF party's standing in Artsakh as well as Armenia is not very high. The fact of historical matter remains, that Artsakh would have been liberated and in Armenian hands back in 1918 when General Andranik was in Sushi slaughtering all the Turks in his path, only to be called back by the Dashnak Committe from Yerevan. Another fact of reality is that after 70 years of calling for a free and independent Armenia, it was the ARF party which opposed the independence of Soviet Armenia, and the also initially opposed the whole Karabakh movement. Moreover, the recent free and fair elections within Mountainous Karabakh shows what the Armenian people think of the Dashnak Party.

Andranik

07-29-2005, 12:43 AM

How was the 88 Earthquake not natural, I keep hearing that. Any clues?

One theory states that it was an underground bomb

winoman

07-29-2005, 06:33 AM

One theory states that it was an underground bomb

I have a theory for ya...it was an earthquake...mother nature as it were - as have been ocuring in those parts for millions of years. Where did all those mountains come from eh? Atlantic plate pushing up against the European land mass, volacanos (check the area around Lake Van for instance) and so on and so forth...its not as though such things were invented yesterday...and it not as if such things could be engineered without a great deal of evidence (for instance there are both global earthquake as well as global (underground explosion) nuclear monitoring stations throughout the globe and they emit quite distinct signatures...etc. I'm also quite baffled by what motivation one (and who?) might have to do such a thing...again I supose its those aliens in Yamukas again eh?

Andranik

07-29-2005, 07:34 AM

I have a theory for ya...it was an earthquake...mother nature as it were - as have been ocuring in those parts for millions of years. Where did all those mountains come from eh? Atlantic plate pushing up against the European land mass, volacanos (check the area around Lake Van for instance) and so on and so forth...its not as though such things were invented yesterday...and it not as if such things could be engineered without a great deal of evidence (for instance there are both global earthquake as well as global (underground explosion) nuclear monitoring stations throughout the globe and they emit quite distinct signatures...etc. I'm also quite baffled by what motivation one (and who?) might have to do such a thing...again I supose its those aliens in Yamukas again eh?

I didn't say that was my theory, I said it was one of the theory's out there. As for who could have done it, the Russians very well could have done it. And why not? with Armenians fighting against the Azeris, it was the perfect opportunity to quell the Armenian calls for independence.

nakharar

07-29-2005, 08:06 AM

I didn't say that was my theory, I said it was one of the theory's out there. As for who could have done it, the Russians very well could have done it. And why not? with Armenians fighting against the Azeris, it was the perfect opportunity to quell the Armenian calls for independence.

Do you know how many nuclear bombs you need just to generate a fraction of a 7.0 scale earthquake?

Thousands upon thousands.

Not to mention the impossible task of burying all these bombs miles deep near the faultline.

Andranik

07-29-2005, 09:57 AM

Recent news emanating from the Holy See of Cilicia, in Antelias, is most disconcerting, to say the least. They are disturbing, and they may serve as another nail in the coffin of church unity. Indeed, an encyclical signed by His Holiness Aram I comes to create another fait-accompli in the ever growing process of the division within the Armenian Church. This new decree comes to establish a new prelacy in Canada, something long in the making for the observers of the discrepancy between the words and deeds of the powers-to-be in Antelias.

When the new Diocese under Etchmiadzine jurisdiction was formed in Canada, the agents of division held on to their turf and refused to join the new diocese and gradually, and steadily, they worked their way into establishing new parishes in growing Canadian-Armenian communities. The last battle was fought in the tiny community of Vancouver, where a handful of Armenians were "endowed" with two churches, courtesy of usurpers of Antelias.

The next step that followed was the formation of a vicarage, under the auspices of the Eastern Prelacy, and now we face the inevitable reality of a separate Prelacy, under the jurisdiction of Antelias and opposed to the legitimate Diocese under the jurisdiction of the Catholicos of all Armenians, at Etchmiadzine.

This process lasted a long period, outliving at least the terms of two Catholicoses in Antelias. The actors have come and left the scene, but the conspiracy of division remained in place as the constant policy of Tashnag-dominated church in Antelias.

Those who have had the opportunity of hearing or reading Aram Iþs thunderous speeches and sermons remember his all too familiar theme that "the Armenian Church is one and united", while, at the same time undermining the foundation of that very same unity by expending new parishes and churches in the Gulf countries, discrediting the Mother See at the World Council of Churches and other international forums, and upstaging His Holiness Karekin II, at every single trip, action and occasion.

Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Empire, Antelias and its masters have run out of every conceivable excuse that they are fighting the ungodly Communist rule, which controls Etchmiadzine. Since Armenia’s independence Antelias leaders have shown their true colors by holding on to the divided section of the church, both as political pawn and cash cow. It is an open secret that the Tashnag party has full control of the church finances and also uses the captive church as a political leverage to score selfish gains in Armenia.

During Ter Petrossian's unwarranted campaign to alienate and destroy the traditional political parties (and particularly the Tashnag party) clergy in Antelias obediently served their masters' political agenda.

The announcement at Etchmiadzine, regarding the news of the new prelacy in Canada, underscores the limits of arrogance that Antelias demonstrates in its actions when it points that the Mother See "had not been notified officially" about this illegitimate action.

This action dashes all hopes of witnessing unity within the Armenian Church anytime soon.

With the election of Aram I, the course of church unity has taken an adverse turn and there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. One of the casualties of the schism within our church is the adoption of the new bylaws, which would guide the church into the 21st Century and beyond. As long as Antelias remains at loggerheads with the Mother See, no universally acceptable bylaws can be adopted to be uniformly applied in all communities and levels of church hierarchy; that in turn leaves the door open to any self-indulging clergyman to defy church authority, as it happened recently in Moscow.

Fortunately a dynamic, young, wise and principled pontiff has been elected to the throne of St. Gregory the Illuminator to guard vigorously the authority and supremacy of the Mother See at Etchmiadzine.

Antelias and the Tashnags seem to have determined to keep the Armenian Church divided. The leadership within the Etchmiadzine camp cannot escape also the blame, first for the internecine struggles, clashes of egos and, above all, lacking leadership in this fight imposed on our church.

Furthermore, here in America, we were lulled into believing that church unity was around the corner, while the dissident church was in the process of consolidating its gains and looking for new prey. For over a quarter century, unity committees continued to play the charade of negotiations, and the skeptics were castigated as non-believers in church unity. A group of naive ? perhaps well-intentioned ? leaders negotiated with the Prelacy representatives, believing that the church could be reunited on these shores while the rift was growing worldwide. The Diocesan representatives were not awakened until some of the Prelacy messengers themselves blew the whistle that the party had charged them with the mission of giving the runaround to the negotiating group and that they never intended to reach an equitable solution to the division. The Diocese did not educate its followers on the issues dividing our church, while any member of the dissident church was well informed and mobilized to follow the leadership in its mischievous course.

Even more, those in the media who warned the public about the futility and pitfalls of the deceptive negotiations were asked not to interject "partisan politics" or "old country feuds in our church", thus playing into the hands of a well-disciplined and highly motivated group of people who had determined to take over the entire Armenian Church, to use it for their political ends.

Will this new shock serve as a wake up call to our pundits? We seriously doubt it.

The formation of a new prelacy in Canada is another blow to church unity, further deepening the division in the Armenian Church.

It seems that the Holy See at Etchmiadzine and its followers are in for a long and ugly battle to restore and preserve the unity of the Armenian Church.

Yervand Azatian , Armenian Mirror Spectator

nakharar

07-29-2005, 10:29 AM

There is no future for Antelias. They are just resorting to these tactics to delay the inevitable. I think Aram I knows that there is no way of stopping the decrease of the Armenian population of Lebanon. The same goes for Istanbul and Jerusalem which are even in a more perilous state. Sooner or later they will all be dissolved.

Dave

07-29-2005, 01:00 PM

btw the Catholicos is going to visit Canada in 2 months.

And the new prelacy building is already built. It is located next to the tashnag community center, the church, and the school.
http://www.armenianprelacy.ca/

Do not forget that the Catholicosate of Sis is the original one, because when Armenians moved to Cilicia, the Armenian church followed. Another Catholicosate was established later on in Echmiadzin, when the Cilician Armenian rule was weakening.

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem was also established approximately the same time.

The worst is the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It was established after an invitation of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, in order to further seperate the Armenian people and attract Armenians in Constantinople.

Andranik

07-29-2005, 06:02 PM

btw the Catholicos is going to visit Canada in 2 months.

Do not forget that the Catholicosate of Sis is the original one, because when Armenians moved to Cilicia, the Armenian church followed. Another Catholicosate was established later on in Echmiadzin, when the Cilician Armenian rule was weakening.

the Catholicosate of Sis (currently in Antelias) is a Business. Those who run that business is the Dashnak Party. There is only 1 Armenian people, and only 1 catholicos of all Armenians, and his holiness resides on Armenias sacred soil in Ethmiatzin.

Dave

07-29-2005, 08:13 PM

Andranik

07-29-2005, 08:55 PM

Sorry, but I fail to understand how the Cilician Catholicosate is a business. You call it a business just because iit is dominated by Tashnags?

I live in Montreal, Canada. Let us see what Armenians did in the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

The Tashnags and the partisans and priests of the Cilician Catholicosate went to Ottawa to protest in front of the Turkish embassy. They did a commemoration mass only once or twice.

The other Armenians and the partisans and priests of the Echmiadzin Catholicosate went to cry in the Saint-Joseph oratory of Mount Royal... They did it 2-3 days or so in a row. One of those masses even took place during the afternoon of April 24 - the same day Tashnags and pro-Antilias Armenians went to protest in Ottawa. What does that mean to you?

Who would I rather join? Armenians who weep and mourn in a church that isn't even Armenian, or Armenians who do one major commemoration event in their own churches, and then go to protest in Ottawa?

Even though some might think protests are useless, crying and asking help from God is even more useless.

I'm sure that you and most of the ordinary Dashnaks (who play no role whatsoever in party affairs) are well-meaning, patriotic Armenians. However, the policies pursued by those on top run against the interests of Armenians and Armenia. Hundreds upon millions of Catholics of different races and backgrounds have 1 single pope, while us Armenians number just a few million have you Catholicoses? I call it a business because all the profits from the Church go fill the pockets and stomach of High ranking dashnak officials and towards the implementation of selfish gains within Armenia.

Protesting the Turks has nothing to do whatsoever with beloging to this or that party. It is your national duty as an Armenian to protest. And just so you know, student youth groups in los angeles belonging to NO parties whatsoever organize the largest protests here, numbering in the thousands (30,000 plus). Coincidentally, the Dashnak youth groups also organize a protest in front of the Turkish embassy, but it attracts 100-300 people yearly (from which a lot of are Non -dashnaks like myself).

Baron Dants

07-30-2005, 01:19 AM

The Armenians were invited by Mgr. Turcotte (the Catholic Archbishop of Montreal) to hold the commemoration event in the St-Joseph Oratory, the largest church in Montreal. The ceremony was not at all about crying. It was a tremendous symbol of people of all faiths and congregations coming together, with representatives of all communities, from the Archbishop of the Anglican Church to Greeks to Ukrainians to Arabs to xxxs to Buddhists to Armenian Catholics to Armenian Protestants, all joining together to commemorate the event. Only people not there were the representatives of the Cilician Catholicosate...funny, no?

As for the protest...it is downright useless. I've been there a few times myself. People are singing and laughing in the buses, many youth run away to eat Taco Bell (which we don't have in Quebec), the Turkish embassy is vacant and they get no coverage. The ceremony at St-Joseph was attended by federal and provincial ministers, the mayors of Montreal and Laval, got coverage both on the local CTV network, and the national CBC, and the Montreal Gazette.

Baron Dants

07-30-2005, 01:26 AM

Let us not even mention that the new archbishop (he is not, by the way, referred to as Arachnort Giligyan Temi...he has rather chosen the title of Arachnort Canadahayots) is a dirty old man who rates the derrières of the sweet old ladies who volunteer for HOM.

Whatever...the Armenian church has just become a playground for older people, who like to think that they are involved in some bigshot political affairs. It is a shame that in a community that has many pressing affairs, the building of a new arachnortaran was considered so important, and so urgent. It's even a bigger shame that all this happened right when a young and brilliant new arachnort (defended his thesis in theology at Oxford), arrived to Canada, and had to face this sort of crap before even getting started.

Baron Dants

07-30-2005, 01:34 AM

Oh, by the way, I can be equally critical of the non-Tashnags, but they don't get so angry, lol.

Also, I have at least come to respect the way non-Tashnags always (or almost) invite the Tashnags to joint events, etc, knowing that the invite will be rejected anyways. (I am talking about Montreal, by the way)

Dave

07-30-2005, 03:53 PM

I'm sure that you and most of the ordinary Dashnaks (who play no role whatsoever in party affairs) are well-meaning, patriotic Armenians. However, the policies pursued by those on top run against the interests of Armenians and Armenia. Hundreds upon millions of Catholics of different races and backgrounds have 1 single pope, while us Armenians number just a few million have you Catholicoses? I call it a business because all the profits from the Church go fill the pockets and stomach of High ranking dashnak officials and towards the implementation of selfish gains within Armenia.

If it's true, it is really unfortunate. But it's not any different in non-Armenian churches. Many Catholics also have complaints.

Compare us Armenians with the Lebanese. They are Maronite Christians, Orthodox, Sunni, Shiite, Druze....

Protesting the Turks has nothing to do whatsoever with beloging to this or that party. It is your national duty as an Armenian to protest.

There are few non-Tashnag Armenians who attend the protest. Why aren't they fulfilling their national duty?

And just so you know, student youth groups in los angeles belonging to NO parties whatsoever organize the largest protests here, numbering in the thousands (30,000 plus). Coincidentally, the Dashnak youth groups also organize a protest in front of the Turkish embassy, but it attracts 100-300 people yearly (from which a lot of are Non -dashnaks like myself).

Maybe because there aren't many western armenians, or armenians who are affiliated with the tashnagtsoutyoun. Most LA Armenians are Eastern Armenians anyway. They aren't affiliated with these groups.

The Armenians were invited by Mgr. Turcotte (the Catholic Archbishop of Montreal) to hold the commemoration event in the St-Joseph Oratory, the largest church in Montreal. The ceremony was not at all about crying. It was a tremendous symbol of people of all faiths and congregations coming together, with representatives of all communities, from the Archbishop of the Anglican Church to Greeks to Ukrainians to Arabs to xxxs to Buddhists to Armenian Catholics to Armenian Protestants, all joining together to commemorate the event. Only people not there were the representatives of the Cilician Catholicosate...funny, no?

I know, I attended that event... How else would they have been able to fill up the whole room? By inviting non-Armenian religious leaders and their followers.

As for the protest...it is downright useless. I've been there a few times myself. People are singing and laughing in the buses, many youth run away to eat Taco Bell (which we don't have in Quebec), the Turkish embassy is vacant and they get no coverage. The ceremony at St-Joseph was attended by federal and provincial ministers, the mayors of Montreal and Laval, got coverage both on the local CTV network, and the national CBC, and the Montreal Gazette.

Maybe you didn't notice the coverage done by Ontarian media.

The protest did get some coverage by Ontarian media, especially the larger one last year. And do not worry. Tashnags know very well how to attract attention in various ways. For example, the news of the protest of Lebanese-Armenians during Erdogan's visit in Lebanon also reached non-Lebanese and Turkish newspapers.

btw are there any Armenian lobbies here other than tashang-supported ANCA? How 'bout if we stopped fighting for the recognition of the Genocide, which is something we do for all Armenians? The ones who died in 1915 were non-Tashnags anyway...

Let us not even mention that the new archbishop (he is not, by the way, referred to as Arachnort Giligyan Temi...he has rather chosen the title of Arachnort Canadahayots) is a dirty old man who rates the derrières of the sweet old ladies who volunteer for HOM.

You really don't know him.

hyedgha15

07-31-2005, 01:13 AM

It is so pathetic how narrow minded you all think, how dare you call the church a business. Im sure 90% of you dont even go to church more than twice a year, who are you to speak about it. You all prolly dont even know why there was a split, but just post stuff here cause you found out that the Antilias church is run by tashnags. Do you know why the tashnags control the church? Because it was the Tashnagtsootyoon that stood beside the church, made sure that the Armenians in the Middle East had a church, funded all its needs, when all the other parties turned their backs and ran. You all prolly dont even know the names of the two catholicos, let alone know what the difference between them is. Stop bashing, start supporting!

Thai-Samurai

07-31-2005, 10:20 AM

That's true, I think I've only gone to church twice this year. And I don't know the name of the cathilcos' or what their differences are.

TomServo

07-31-2005, 10:52 AM

I'm about to go to church right now. That's the first time this year, I think. Yay!

Siamanto

07-31-2005, 11:14 AM

That's true, I think I've only gone to church twice this year. And I don't know the name of the cathilcos' or what their differences are.

That's the spirit. At times, I am surprised that we still distinguish not only between Catholic Armenians and Gregorian Armenians; we even go one step further to divide the Gregorian Armenians.

Baron Dants

07-31-2005, 02:45 PM

There are no differences. It is just hard to let go of power for the common good when you have it.

Dave

07-31-2005, 06:01 PM

Some say the Antelias catholicosate's apostolic christian ideology is stronger because it wasn't affected by the Soviet Union.

And if you are about to think that Arab Christian or Islamic ideology has infiltrated into the Antelias church, you're wrong. In Lebanon we were independent in managing these affairs.

Baron Dants

07-31-2005, 06:45 PM

That's a bunch of crap...come on. You don't think that the Armenian church has one ideology? And even if one is "stronger" than the other, do you not think that since the Soviet Union no longer exists, it may be time to consolidate them?

I'm sure there are much more differences between the "strong" and the "weak" ideologies prevalent in Catholicism, yet their billions of people still manage to have one Pope!

Dave

07-31-2005, 06:55 PM

Officially it has or it should have one ideology, no?

Baron Dants

07-31-2005, 07:11 PM

What does?

Dave

07-31-2005, 07:14 PM

The Armenian Apostolic Church.

Baron Dants

07-31-2005, 07:15 PM

I think so. Then why 2 Gatoghigos-s?

KotayKoskesh

07-31-2005, 07:16 PM

Dave

07-31-2005, 07:34 PM

@KotayKoskesh

Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post. Arabs left us Armenians alone in managing these affairs. On the other hand, the soviet union tried to take advantage of anything - the Echmiadzin Catholicosate in this case - that might be able to spread their propaganda outside the union.

And if you are about to think that Arab Christian or Islamic ideology has infiltrated into the Antelias church, you're wrong. In Lebanon we were independent in managing these affairs.

@Diar Dants

Why 2 Catholicos? I gave a part of the answer you seek to KotayKoskesh. There are historical reasons also. The Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia was the original Armenian Catholicosate that moved out of Armenia when it fell to the Seljuk Turks. A new Catholicosate was established in Echmiadzin later on...

So Echmiadzin is the original seat of the Armenian Catholicosate, but Antelias is the original Catholicosate itself. Both have equal rights to exist and cooperate now the the Soviet Union has fallen.

Urfatzi

02-02-2006, 01:08 PM

AMAAAA meghk ek! SHAD! Either you guys are just ignorant, really narrow minded, or just plain dumb!

#1. I do agree if Tashnagtzootyoon was not around, Armenia would have been gone a LONGG time ago! yes ramgavar, hnchagyans faught, but who are you trying to fool to say all these things?
#2. This is one problem people in the AGBU you community have: thinking everything is about them, and everyone is out to get them. Buddy..you want me to give examples??? I will! Every year we do parties, educational nights, concerts....anything, just to get ALL armenians together. Everyone is invited...What happens? you guys and girls come, but no one from AGBU comes, because why? because it's these "tashnag dogs" who are organizing it. So what do the people in the executives in AGBU groups do? they organize a party the same night, trying to prove a point....when really it's pure stupidity. Now a days, some of these younger generations are seeing that we are not dogs, and what their parents have told them was not true...we don't bite.....so some of them start to come. Some are still hard headed....I also want to add, that we as well go to there parties, but every single party i have gone to i have 1) been treated like xxxx, 2) been asked to leave because i'm not "a part of them". The first time they actually let me in, cause they had no clue where i was from. When they saw they couldn't brainwash me, they didn't like it.
#3. Homenetmen does not teach kids to HATE people from AGBU. let me add, that in montreal, HMEM was the one who did start the scouting movement in a strong way amongst Armenians. then what happend? a bunch of rich people backed up AGBU to open up there own scouts, why? so they don't have to go to the tashnag agoump to be a scout. Homenetmen like all the organizations that are hamagirs to Tashnagtzootyoon do not spread hate. We as Armenians have an issue with the government and those who state that 1915 never did happen. I think every Armenian would have a problem with that, considering most of our families were brutally killed for no other reason than being Christian Armenians.
#4. I don't know who made that stupid comment saying tashnagtzootyoon is like the USSR or ottoman turks...considering the tashnagtzootyoon was the one who was fighting AGAINST them! i am asking you very kindly to never refer Tashnagtzootyoon to any of those filthy parties. It is an insult not to only Tashnagtzootyoon, but to Armenians! you are comparing the Tashnagtzootyoon to a communist party, or a party who whipped out more than 2/3rds our population! Kitch me ametzir!

Even if you don't like any party, the least you can do is respect them. I respect any party whos main goal is to make a better Armenia, and Tashnagtzootyoon happens to be the #1 advocate of this. It's the party who not only talks or writes, but also acts and works to make what they believe a reality! Kitch me aveli kitch khosetzek, yev aveli parik erek tzer Azkin hamar, desek inch gernank enel vorbes AZK!Miasnootyoon oozele shad tooroon eh, miasin ellale shad tejvar eh yete asank bidi medadzek. We all have different opinions...but asank bedk choonik ardahaydeloo