Is baklava an Armenian desert?

[oyuncu]

Lets discuss something different than why Turks are barbaric murderer savages, how they butcher English language, how their brains are full of propoganda of their government, why EU will never admit them to the union, how Armenians are European and white, how ASALA is a group of people from freedom warriors, etc.
For example nowadays Greeks appealed to Europan Parliement to proclaim that baklava is a Greek desert and Turkish coffee is originally a Greek coffee.
What do you think about it? I suspect that baklava and what we call as Turkisah coffee is originally Armenian.

[crusader1492]

This debate has been raging since the dawn of man. Armenians call this dessert Paklava - Greeks Baklava. Most people would associate this dessert with the Greeks b/c thay are more representative throughout the world (plus they are accomplished resurantuers). Anyway that does not prove that they invented Paklava.
I suppose this question requires more historical research. However, I know one thing: Turks can lay no claim on this dessert since they were late comers to Anatolia. Also, we call "Turkish coffe" - "Armenian coffee".
It's all good.

[Sip]

Turkish/Armenian coffee is left over from caveman days. Back then, they used to call it "mud" because that's exactly what it looks and tastes like.

[D3ADSY]

Oyuncu has quite a fitting username.

[crusader1492]

Turkish/Armenian coffee is left over from caveman days. Back then, they used to call it "mud" because that's exactly what it looks and tastes like.

Than I guess that Armenian's can claim this "mud" as their own. Mongolians were still in Mongolia during caveman days.

[Londoner]

i think you dear sirs are tasting mud pretty often :naughty:
Turkish/Armenian coffee is left over from caveman days. Back then, they used to call it "mud" because that's exactly what it looks and tastes like.
...
Than I guess that Armenian's can claim this "mud" as their own. Mongolians were still in Mongolia during caveman days.

[crusader1492]

i think you dear sirs are tasting mud pretty often :naughty:

...

I had some today. It was great!

[Londoner]

http://www.killerplants.com/whats-in...e/20021220.asp

It seems as if the turks where 15 centuries late in order to be able to claim this "invention": (and who is to say that the first coffee shop wasn't in fact owned by a Greek, Armenian or J-e-w eh?)...there were certainly more of the former living in Constantinople during this time then there were turks living there. Note - coffee bean first brought to Americas by Jesuits in 16th century...

Ethiopians make the claim (but seem to attribute it to a much youger date...)

http://www.selamta.net/Ethiopian%20Coffee.htm

On Yemeni origin: (hundreds of years - at least - before arrival of Turks into the vicinity...)

http://www.yobserver.com/cgi-bin/yob...iew.cgi/1/7732


Coffee history legends and myths:

http://groups.msn.com/FoodiesCorner/coffeeorigins.msnw

An interesting history (that discusses turkish role in trade):

http://www.faseolo.com/01Origins.htm

And of course for balance:

http://www.theturkishtimes.com/archi...5/c_kahve.html


http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/6454/coffee.html

[TomServo]

I'm surprised you didn't trace its origins to the Kurds!

[Sip]

I prefer my mud 100x diluted with water and at 10x the cost. Modern day humans call it American Coffee :p.

[Heavy G]

I hope Armenians came up with meat pies, or some of you might know it by the term lamajo.......Best food in the world!!

[Otto3]

lets say i have been all around the world and when a pilot boards our ship he/she asks for a turkish coffee... so it is turkish coffee... ok maybe it was not before but it is now..

[Sip]

I see .... so the world calls it Turkish coffee and it's Turkish coffee. But when the world calls it Genocide, somehow it's propaganda?

[TomServo]

That post = teh win.

[Londoner]

I'm surprised you didn't trace its origins to the Kurds!
sanane? :D why should i?

[oyuncu]

Hmm, you are serious about your allegations that baklava is Armenian. Not a joke. :)

[oyuncu]

Actually this thing we called as Turkish coffee is came from Oman to Ottoman Empire and Turks make it Turkish coffee as we know today.
Baklava is originally a Syrian desert.
In any case the most delicious baklava and Turkish coffee is made in Turkey which everybody accept. I can't stand Arabic baklava.
And londoner, as for Kurds, I accept that Kurds make a different type of Turkish coffee, mırra, perfect.
Oh btw, is Mırra an Armenian coffee, or Greek?:)

[Londoner]

honestly, baklava, turkish coffee or even kebab is not only turkish, greek, armenian or kurdish culture... but clearly these all found in anatolia or mid. east. turkish coffee is very famous in israel and originally called turkish coffee...

oyuncu, if you wanna taste a kurdish culture, try tea with "buyuk kesme seker"... i don't remember whatever it called in turkish. also semaver tea..

[Dreamer]

honestly, baklava, turkish coffee or even kebab is not only turkish, greek, armenian or kurdish culture... but clearly these all found in anatolia or mid. east. turkish coffee is very famous in israel and originally called turkish coffee...

oyuncu, if you wanna taste a kurdish culture, try tea with "buyuk kesme seker"... i don't remember whatever it called in turkish. also semaver tea..

I think in Turkish it is called "KITLAMA" ?
All these are the culture of Anatolia.We can not category them into ethnisity but we all can share them :)

[Otto3]

I see .... so the world calls it Turkish coffee and it's Turkish coffee. But when the world calls it Genocide, somehow it's propaganda?


that was a smart move and i have nothing to say.... damn

[oyuncu]

honestly, baklava, turkish coffee or even kebab is not only turkish, greek, armenian or kurdish culture... but clearly these all found in anatolia or mid. east. turkish coffee is very famous in israel and originally called turkish coffee...

oyuncu, if you wanna taste a kurdish culture, try tea with "buyuk kesme seker"... i don't remember whatever it called in turkish. also semaver tea..
You mean "kırtlama"?
No I dont like it, actually you are not good at tea, but for some Kurdish coffees like Mırra you are perfect.
Btw, why don't you claim that baklava is originally Kurdish?:)

[Quarteria]

I've had Turkish baklava....it's not that great...surprize.

[Londoner]

Btw, why don't you claim that baklava is originally Kurdish?:)
no need to tease. i respect to the cultures! the thing i want is freedom for my people. After the freedom i assure turks and armenians that we can all live in peace! but turkey is managed by fascist generals. the thing wich is connecting us is our cultures. they're so similar. nobody stole any culture; just sharing same cultures...

[Otto3]

baklava is a turkish desert

[Sip]

Turks did everything.

[Armenian]

The History of Baklava

THE ORIGIN:

Like the origins of most recipes that came from Old Countries to enrich the dinner tables of dessert lovers, the exact origin of baklava is also something hard to put the finger on because every ethnic group whose ancestry goes back to the Middle East has a claim of their own on this scrumptious pastry.

Recipe for Baklava

It is widely believed however, that the Assyrians at around 8th century B.C. were the first people who put together a few layers of thin bread dough, with chopped nuts in between those layers, added some honey and baked it in their primitive wood burning ovens. This earliest known version of baklava was baked only on special occasions. In fact, historically baklava was considered a food for the rich until the mid-19th century. In Turkey, to this day one can hear a common _expression often used by the poor, or even by the middle class, saying: "I am not rich enough to eat baklava and boerek every day".

REGIONAL INTERACTIONS:

The Greek seamen and merchants traveling east to Mesopotamia soon discovered the delights of Baklava. It mesmerized their taste buds. They brought the recipe to Athens. The Greeks' major contribution to the development of this pastry is the creation of a dough technique that made it possible to roll it as thin as a leaf, compared to the rough, bread-like texture of the Assyrian dough. In fact, the name "Phyllo" was coined by Greeks, which means "leaf" in the Greek language. In a relatively short time, in every kitchen of wealthy households in the region, trays of baklava were being baked for all kinds of special occasions from the 3rd Century B.C. onwards. The Armenians, as their Kingdom was located on ancient Spice and Silk Routes, integrated for the first time the cinnamon and cloves into the texture of baklava. The Arabs introduced the rose-water and cardamom. The taste changed in subtle nuances as the recipe started crossing borders. To the north of its birthplace, baklava was being baked and served in the palaces of the ancient Persian kingdom. To the west, it was baked in the kitchens of the wealthy Roman mansions, and then in the kitchens of the Byzantine Empire until the fall of the latter in 1453 A.D.

THE PERFECTION:

In the 15th Century A.D., the Ottomans invaded Constantinople to the west, and they also expanded their eastern territories to cover most of ancient Assyrian lands and the entire Armenian Kingdom. The Byzantine Empire came to an end, and in the east Persian Kingdom lost its western provinces to the invaders. For four hundred years from 16th Century on, until the decline of Ottoman Empire in 19th Century, the kitchens of Imperial Ottoman Palace in Constantinople became the ultimate culinary hub of the empire.

The artisans and craftsmen of all Guilds, the bakers, cooks and pastry chefs who worked in the Ottoman palaces, at the mansions of Pashas and Viziers, and at Provincial Governor (Vali) residences etc., had to be recruited from various ethnic groups that composed the empire. Armenian, Greek, Persian, Egyptian, Assyrian and occasionally Serbian, Hungarian or even French chefs were brought to Constantinople, to be employed at the kitchens of the wealthy. These chefs contributed enormously to the interaction and to the refinement of the art of cooking and pastry-making of an Empire that covered a vast region to include the Balkans, Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Persia, Armenia, Iraq and entire Mesopotamia, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa and the Mediterranean and Aegean islands. Towards the end of 19th Century, small pastry-shops started to appear in Constantinople and in major Provincial capitals, to cater the middle class, but the Ottoman Palace have always remained the top culinary "academy" of the Empire, until its end in 1923.

Here, we must mention that there's a special reason for baklava being the top choice of pastry for the Turkish Sultans with their large Harems, as well as for the wealthy and their families. Two principal ingredients, the pistachio and honey, were believed to be aphrodisiacs when taken regularly. Certain spices that were added to baklava, have also helped to fine-tune and to augment the aphrodisiac characteristics of the pastry, depending on male or female consumer. Cinnamon for females, and cardamom for males and cloves for both sexes.

From 18th century on, there was nothing much to add to baklava's already perfected taste and texture. There were however, some cosmetic modifications in shaping and in the presentation of baklava on a baking tray (called Sinii). The Phyllo dough (called Youfka) which was traditionally layered and cut into squares or triangles, were given a "French touch" in late 18th century. As the Empire began opening itself to Western cultural (and culinary) influences, the General manager (Kahyabasi) of the Imperial Kitchen didn't miss the opportunity to hire Monsieur Guillaume, a former pastry chef of Marie Antoinette, who in exile at the Ottoman Turkish Palace after learning how to bake baklava, created the "dome" technique of cutting and folding of the baklava squares which was named "Baklava Francaise" (French Baklava) after the nationality of its creator.

Based on the above history it is clear that Assyria is the origin of the Baklava
The Assyrian empire stretched from Southern Lebanon in the south to the Zagros mountains in the north( bordering present day Iraq and Iran) and included areas of present day Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq. The heartland of Assyria is the area that is now dominated by the Kurds. Baklava , in fact has been the sweetest unifying dessert between all the countries of the Middle East and the Mediterranean sea. Each country makes it its own way but they are all sweet and sticky.

Lebanon has been the leader in promoting Baklava throughout the world. Lebanese baklava bakers such as Samedi were the first to Franchise it in the Gulf region, Europe and throughout the Middle east. In the United States the most famous Baklava is made by Shatila in Michigan. As Lebanon continues to promote this dessert it will become the ultimate original Baklava.

Turkey and Greece therefore should stop this crazy Baklava war, because they both copied the dessert, but Lebanon did a better job at copying.
One baker told me after hearing the history of the dessert " You know, I never though about this before, but since Lebanon was at one time part of the Assyrian empire...perhaps Lebanon was the origin of this dessert and the Assyrians copied it from us and then passed on the recipe to the Turks and Greeks !!"

I was not surprised to hear this from the Lebanese baker and will comment no further since we had enough wars in Lebanon and we don’t want to start another one with Turkey and Greece.

Source: http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/05/baklava_war_int.php

[Quarteria]

Turks did everything.

...except murder & steal land...

[Anahita]

Baklava (Greek) or paklava (Armenian)--I like the ones I've tried. Today, I was trying to remember the name of a tiny Lebanese vegetarian buffet in San Diego for Crissy to try. I couldn't find the name.

[Otto3]

whatever...

[oyuncu]

The History of Baklava

THE ORIGIN:

Like the origins of most recipes that came from Old Countries to enrich the dinner tables of dessert lovers, the exact origin of baklava is also something hard to put the finger on because every ethnic group whose ancestry goes back to the Middle East has a claim of their own on this scrumptious pastry.

Recipe for Baklava

It is widely believed however, that the Assyrians at around 8th century B.C. were the first people who put together a few layers of thin bread dough, with chopped nuts in between those layers, added some honey and baked it in their primitive wood burning ovens. This earliest known version of baklava was baked only on special occasions. In fact, historically baklava was considered a food for the rich until the mid-19th century. In Turkey, to this day one can hear a common _expression often used by the poor, or even by the middle class, saying: "I am not rich enough to eat baklava and boerek every day".

REGIONAL INTERACTIONS:

The Greek seamen and merchants traveling east to Mesopotamia soon discovered the delights of Baklava. It mesmerized their taste buds. They brought the recipe to Athens. The Greeks' major contribution to the development of this pastry is the creation of a dough technique that made it possible to roll it as thin as a leaf, compared to the rough, bread-like texture of the Assyrian dough. In fact, the name "Phyllo" was coined by Greeks, which means "leaf" in the Greek language. In a relatively short time, in every kitchen of wealthy households in the region, trays of baklava were being baked for all kinds of special occasions from the 3rd Century B.C. onwards. The Armenians, as their Kingdom was located on ancient Spice and Silk Routes, integrated for the first time the cinnamon and cloves into the texture of baklava. The Arabs introduced the rose-water and cardamom. The taste changed in subtle nuances as the recipe started crossing borders. To the north of its birthplace, baklava was being baked and served in the palaces of the ancient Persian kingdom. To the west, it was baked in the kitchens of the wealthy Roman mansions, and then in the kitchens of the Byzantine Empire until the fall of the latter in 1453 A.D.

THE PERFECTION:

In the 15th Century A.D., the Ottomans invaded Constantinople to the west, and they also expanded their eastern territories to cover most of ancient Assyrian lands and the entire Armenian Kingdom. The Byzantine Empire came to an end, and in the east Persian Kingdom lost its western provinces to the invaders. For four hundred years from 16th Century on, until the decline of Ottoman Empire in 19th Century, the kitchens of Imperial Ottoman Palace in Constantinople became the ultimate culinary hub of the empire.

The artisans and craftsmen of all Guilds, the bakers, cooks and pastry chefs who worked in the Ottoman palaces, at the mansions of Pashas and Viziers, and at Provincial Governor (Vali) residences etc., had to be recruited from various ethnic groups that composed the empire. Armenian, Greek, Persian, Egyptian, Assyrian and occasionally Serbian, Hungarian or even French chefs were brought to Constantinople, to be employed at the kitchens of the wealthy. These chefs contributed enormously to the interaction and to the refinement of the art of cooking and pastry-making of an Empire that covered a vast region to include the Balkans, Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Persia, Armenia, Iraq and entire Mesopotamia, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa and the Mediterranean and Aegean islands. Towards the end of 19th Century, small pastry-shops started to appear in Constantinople and in major Provincial capitals, to cater the middle class, but the Ottoman Palace have always remained the top culinary "academy" of the Empire, until its end in 1923.

Here, we must mention that there's a special reason for baklava being the top choice of pastry for the Turkish Sultans with their large Harems, as well as for the wealthy and their families. Two principal ingredients, the pistachio and honey, were believed to be aphrodisiacs when taken regularly. Certain spices that were added to baklava, have also helped to fine-tune and to augment the aphrodisiac characteristics of the pastry, depending on male or female consumer. Cinnamon for females, and cardamom for males and cloves for both sexes.

From 18th century on, there was nothing much to add to baklava's already perfected taste and texture. There were however, some cosmetic modifications in shaping and in the presentation of baklava on a baking tray (called Sinii). The Phyllo dough (called Youfka) which was traditionally layered and cut into squares or triangles, were given a "French touch" in late 18th century. As the Empire began opening itself to Western cultural (and culinary) influences, the General manager (Kahyabasi) of the Imperial Kitchen didn't miss the opportunity to hire Monsieur Guillaume, a former pastry chef of Marie Antoinette, who in exile at the Ottoman Turkish Palace after learning how to bake baklava, created the "dome" technique of cutting and folding of the baklava squares which was named "Baklava Francaise" (French Baklava) after the nationality of its creator.

Based on the above history it is clear that Assyria is the origin of the Baklava
The Assyrian empire stretched from Southern Lebanon in the south to the Zagros mountains in the north( bordering present day Iraq and Iran) and included areas of present day Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq. The heartland of Assyria is the area that is now dominated by the Kurds. Baklava , in fact has been the sweetest unifying dessert between all the countries of the Middle East and the Mediterranean sea. Each country makes it its own way but they are all sweet and sticky.

Lebanon has been the leader in promoting Baklava throughout the world. Lebanese baklava bakers such as Samedi were the first to Franchise it in the Gulf region, Europe and throughout the Middle east. In the United States the most famous Baklava is made by Shatila in Michigan. As Lebanon continues to promote this dessert it will become the ultimate original Baklava.

Turkey and Greece therefore should stop this crazy Baklava war, because they both copied the dessert, but Lebanon did a better job at copying.
One baker told me after hearing the history of the dessert " You know, I never though about this before, but since Lebanon was at one time part of the Assyrian empire...perhaps Lebanon was the origin of this dessert and the Assyrians copied it from us and then passed on the recipe to the Turks and Greeks !!"

I was not surprised to hear this from the Lebanese baker and will comment no further since we had enough wars in Lebanon and we don’t want to start another one with Turkey and Greece.

Source: http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/05/baklava_war_int.php
Of course a Lebanon (yalibnan) source claim that best Baklava is made in Lebanon. The point that you do not understand is there is no war between Turkey and Greece on the taste of Baklava, because everyday thousands of Baklava Siniis are sent from Istanbul to Athens by plane. I saw the queues in front of Gulluoglu baklava shop in Athens. Everbody, even you accept that best Baklava is preparing in Turkey (because of the Imperial background of the Empire)
Yes it is stupid to argue about the origin of baklava for Turks and Greeks because it is originally a middle east desert from ancient times, probably Assyrians. Istanbul, Antep and Haleppo are the most profession cities on baklava in the world.
But I assure you that the best baklava is not made in Michigan.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[oyuncu]

Baklava (Greek) or paklava (Armenian)--I like the ones I've tried. Today, I was trying to remember the name of a tiny Lebanese vegetarian buffet in San Diego for Crissy to try. I couldn't find the name.
Maybe "Baklava (Greek) or paklava (Armenian)" is a white European desert.;)

[oyuncu]

Baklava (Greek) or paklava (Armenian)--I like the ones I've tried. Today, I was trying to remember the name of a tiny Lebanese vegetarian buffet in San Diego for Crissy to try. I couldn't find the name.
Baklava is found in many cuisines, with essentially the same name:

In Afghan cuisine.
In Albanian cuisine as bakllava.
In Armenian cuisine as փախլավա (pʼaḫlava).
In Assyrian cuisine.
In Azeri cuisine.
In Bosnian cuisine as baklava.
In Bulgarian cuisine as баклава (baklava).
In Egyptian cuisine as بقلاوة (baʼlēwa).
In Georgian cuisine as tapluna.
In Greek cuisine as μπακλαβάς. (mpaklavás or baklavás). This is also the most famous type in the United States.
In Iraqi cuisine.
In Israeli cuisine as בַּקְלָוָה or בקלוה (baqlava).
In Kurdish cuisine.
In Lebanese cuisine as بقلاوة (baʼlēwa).
In Levantine cuisine as بقلاوة (baʼlēwa).
In Macedonian cuisine as баклава (baklava)
In Montenegrin cuisine as baklava.
In Persian cuisine as باقلوا (baqlavā).
In Palestinian cuisine as بقلاوة (bak'lawa).
In Romanian cuisine as baclava.
In Serbian cuisine as баклава, baklava
In Syrian cuisine as بقلاوة (baʼlēwa).
In Turkish cuisine as baklava, Ottoman باقلوا. It is the most famous type, especially in Europe.
(wikipedia)

[TomServo]

So it must be true! :rolleyes:

[Sip]

Who came first: The Turks or Jesus?

[Honey]

it's mediterrnian, so that means: either greek, albanian, arab, turkish or italian. or i could be wrong....

[ace]

dolma.

lol.

siktir lakot.

[Armenian]

Baklava is 100% Turkish...

So is yo mama :laugh:

So is my kaka :laugh:

[Armenian]

Deniz, the Armenian speaking Turd, thinks he is being clever :laugh:

[Armenian]

Shidag es, mamas Turk e yev kakas al Turk e. Payts kou kakat hay e. Aysbisov im kakas kou kaket aveli lav e.

Che, che, apoush. Asetsi vor ko maman yev im kaks turk en. Hetevabar, ko maman yev im kaks azqakanner en.

Hasqtsar? :laugh:

[Armenian]

handradouni :confused:

Ko sovorats Hayeren lezvi maman...

[Sip]

.... Hetevabar, ko maman yev im kaks azqakanner en.

Hasqtsar? :laugh:


:laugh: Gaden inch haskana ... eshi meken a.

[TurkishPride]

Do u guys clame Pilaw was Armenian food too, but i think it is not..
But on thing i Pakhlava of Armenians is quit differen and tasts better than one in Greeks.

[Otto3]

oh man this is like religion..all talk and no use except boost idiotism

[Anahita]

oh man this is like religion..all talk and no use except boost idiotism

If I understood more than just a bit of Armenian, I'm sure something there would make me laugh. Same goes for much of fundamentalism 'religion.' :)

[D3ADSY]

How do you make a Turkish omelette?

Sell your sister into a xxxxx house and with the procedes pay a Kurd to help you steal an egg from an Armenian.

[Jen]

The best baklava I've ever had and still have is from a Turkish restaurant here in my city, and it's great because it's FREE... :) I went to school with the owner, and one day when I was talking to a classmate, I mentioned that my grandfather was from Turkey, but before I could say that he was born there because of the Genocide and that he was really Armenian, she interrupted me and introduce herself saying she was Turkish and that she had a restaurant and would love for me to go there and have some food with her...since then I've been having FREE food every 2 weeks or so...HEHEEH

Before you think it's not nice of me to take advantage of her, remember that they not only took our land but killed thousands of our ancestors, so I don't give a damn and will keep eating there for FREE...