history

[Kiffer]

Re: history

A long article about McNamara, from which one paragraph struck a chord... although the quotation doesn't involve the Vietnamese victims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/us/07mcnamara.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was “wrong, terribly wrong.” In return, he faced a firestorm of scorn.

“Mr. McNamara must not escape the lasting moral condemnation of his countrymen,” The New York Times said in a widely discussed editorial, written by the page’s editor at the time, Howell Raines. “Surely he must in every quiet and prosperous moment hear the ceaseless whispers of those poor boys in the infantry, dying in the tall grass, platoon by platoon, for no purpose. What he took from them cannot be repaid by prime-time apology and stale tears, three decades late.” Mc Namara died on july 6th 2009.

[Kiffer]

Re: history

My mother was deported at the age of 13 with her family in 1915.
They lived 4 years in a village called Bolovadine (I don't know where it is) but shie told me that all the population there were Tatars, she ment Turks. Now I think they were Azeris. They were not Caucasian at all, there were no Armenians in that village.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: history

I really try Mr. Baliozian but it long road ahead for true friendship. Few examples

Azeri poster on a military website (several posts added together):

"Caucasian Tatars was a name given to us by Russians. Tatar part was to describe our Turkic origin and there is none that denies Turkic origin of Azerbaijan. But we have also a Caucasian origin, wich Armenia dosen't. Many Caucasian tribes joined Turkic tribes and formed modern nation of Azerbaijan.
So of course we have every right to claim Nagorno-Karabakh, much more then Armenians.
Azeri empire. Just before Russian invasion, there was Khanates of Azerbaijan and whole modern day Armenia was just one Khanate of Azerbaijan called Ireven khanate.
Liberated? You mean occupied?
Please put down your "Greater Armenia" dream.
Nagorno Karabakh is officially part of Azerbaijan. Armenian forces there are occupant and So-called Nagorno Karabakh Republic are fake by international means.
Armenia or fake NK army are no match to Azerbaijan army AT ALL.
Azerbaijan army have absolute domination over Armenian army in terms of everything. Its not 1991, its 2009!
Azerbaijan is ready to return its occupied territorities."

A Turk on the same website.

"Basically, you are demanding that we open a border that you don't even recognize? Oki doki...
Looks like your God is... Well, let's put it this way, have you ever thought about converting? It ain't panning the way it's supposed to be dude... Besides, we have 72 virgins and as many goats as you can have... Now, even Buddha can't match that!

A turk on a social site:

I partly agreed these people, it should have been "Armenians can't go through this door, dogs are allowed"
I like xxxs, They are good people

....And another Turk on the same website.

“what a ****in lies here.....now this xxxx comments made armanians clear????innocent people... read english,american archives u ll how horrible armenians are......just slave people”

Never mind my responses to them...............Any advises Mr. Baliozian.

Hmm, site as in classified or forum? If its a forum, maybe I can assist you, I miss our tag team matches

[Eddo211]

Re: history

I really try Mr. Baliozian but it long road ahead for true friendship. Few examples

Azeri poster on a military website (several posts added together):

"Caucasian Tatars was a name given to us by Russians. Tatar part was to describe our Turkic origin and there is none that denies Turkic origin of Azerbaijan. But we have also a Caucasian origin, wich Armenia dosen't. Many Caucasian tribes joined Turkic tribes and formed modern nation of Azerbaijan.
So of course we have every right to claim Nagorno-Karabakh, much more then Armenians.
Azeri empire. Just before Russian invasion, there was Khanates of Azerbaijan and whole modern day Armenia was just one Khanate of Azerbaijan called Ireven khanate.
Liberated? You mean occupied?
Please put down your "Greater Armenia" dream.
Nagorno Karabakh is officially part of Azerbaijan. Armenian forces there are occupant and So-called Nagorno Karabakh Republic are fake by international means.
Armenia or fake NK army are no match to Azerbaijan army AT ALL.
Azerbaijan army have absolute domination over Armenian army in terms of everything. Its not 1991, its 2009!
Azerbaijan is ready to return its occupied territorities."

A Turk on the same website.

"Basically, you are demanding that we open a border that you don't even recognize? Oki doki...
Looks like your God is... Well, let's put it this way, have you ever thought about converting? It ain't panning the way it's supposed to be dude... Besides, we have 72 virgins and as many goats as you can have... Now, even Buddha can't match that!

A turk on a social site:

I partly agreed these people, it should have been "Armenians can't go through this door, dogs are allowed"
I like xxxs, They are good people

....And another Turk on the same website.

“what a ****in lies here.....now this xxxx comments made armanians clear????innocent people... read english,american archives u ll how horrible armenians are......just slave people”

Never mind my responses to them...............Any advises Mr. Baliozian.

[Anoush]

Re: history

Mr. Baliozian. You say many have accused Americans of Genocide in Vietnam and that Vietnamese themselves do not blame the American people but put the fault on the US government.
That is a fallacy. There is no doubt that US bombers were responsible for terrible deaths in Vietnam and the US GI’s did some terrible things beyond the code of honor but to categorize this into a Genocide would not only be incorrect but it demeans the definition of Genocide which you do not seem to be aware of. Mr. Baliozian I am very surprised that you do not know this but a Genocide is always committed by the STATE (Government) against its own citizens. I suggest you look up the correct definition.
The Vietnamese were not leaving under the laws and protection of the US government, furthermore there was no land lost to the invading forces who were not planning on occupying and conquering the Vietnamese lands. No doubt many were massacred but that does not qualify as Genocide like Darfur....... and incidentally just yesterday the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Omar al-Bashir, the president of Sudan, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in connection with the Darfur conflict. Would this not be a step in the right direction for the remaining victims and humanity in whole? Sure, it cannot bring the dead back but this does set a precedent for the future and makes it legal in a sense that “IT DID HAPPEN” which later on can be used for compensation and return of any lost land.


I see you have advanced your proposed relations with Turks from friends to brothers. Well Sir, it is very hard to make friends let alone brothers with an enemy who wants to kill you.

Below is a typical confession I squeeze out of Ultra-Nationalist Turks (granted this guy is not as seasoned as others I come across and a bit confused). Please explain how we can become brothers.

<<<<<<<<<If it is really a genocide

SO WHAT ! ! ! Ottoman xxxish generals and the army generally occured with generally region Kurds does make Turks to be responsible ?

Also I am the 4. generation, am I responsible for that no!!.. Turkey and Ottoman Empire are not same thing.>>>>>>>>>>>

Do you see the problem Mr. Baliozian?

Very good Eddo. Indeed we as a nation cannot consider turks as friends, much less as brothers when they are in DENIAL of the Armenian Genocide. If anyone is on the side of the turks, then he is brown nosing and worse he is brown nosing with an enemy who is denying of his 2 Million anscestral barbaric killings ONLY for them (the turks) to do it time and time again.

Mr Baliozian did not give an acceptable answer to your question Eddo. A Genocide occurs when a nation kills her own innocent citizens. And turkey surely did that. How can we be on the side of such denialist government and people who will kill us Armenians time and time again when they deny such horrendous barbaric acts after 94 years and call them our friends and our brothers? Anyone in the right mind and the right heart or even a moral person would not.

[Sasun]

Re: history

Genocide. That word seems to drive people crazy doesn't it? Yet it didin't exist in any voccabulary until the mid 20th Century!
The then League of Nations commissioned Raphael Lempkin to explain what had happened to the Armenians, and he coined the word GENOCIDE. We should always keep that in the forefront. The use of Genocide with any other event should be clarified as to definition. I do not mean to demean any nation's sufferings, but let's get the order straight and let's get definitions straight.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: history

Well bell the xxxxx cat went into hiding i guess. My bet is the monument in that vid was made to remember the armenian martyrs and the turcks just turned the story around saying it was for the turcks who were killed by the armenians. It amazes me how these turcks come into our forums talkin xxxx but in actuality are xxxxxs at heart. I am not seeing really any hopefull sighns from these people at all. Even the ones who have the brains to questions the state approved version of history lack the balls to do the right thing. A professor i very much respected and learned a lot from tried hard to establish dialogue between our peoples and he brought some turckish professors of history to detroits armenian community center so that we could establish dialogue. This was loong ago but i am not sure how much good this is going to bring. As i said before it is up to turckey to solve this issue and it does involve recognition and restotution. Since non of these two things seems likely to happen i can only forsee another tragic war in the future where either armenia will strike turckey when it is weak or the turck will try to finish the genocide it started if russia for whatever reason allows it. The wounds of the armenian survivors are way too deep to forget and the hatred only rises with every act of turckish denial. I hope i am wrong and no more bloodshed is needed but i get no hope from the turcks visiting our forums.

Whatever is behind those xxxxxs makes me doubtful if a reply is deserving.

I was expecting there to be more about the Van Cats, but it seems that is actually all there is in the video. Though my additional story about the monument is short as well.

The monument dates from the mid-1990s. Underneath the current marble plaque on the monument there is a brass one. The marble one gives the date 1918 but on the original brass one the date is 1915.
The monument is supposed to commemorate a massacre of Turkish inhabitants of Subatan by Armenians in April 1918. Given that there are no neutral accounts and the Turkish accounts are mostly propaganda, it is impossible to know what, if anything, actually happened. This was during the Ottoman Empire's offensive against Armenia (they captured Kars in April 1918). By having the fake date of 1915, the Turks were obviously trying to connect this event to the genocide of 1915. At the end of the 90s the brass one was vandalised and had paint poured over it.

[Eddo211]

Re: history

QUESTION
***********************************************
Remember my friends:
free speech is a fundamental human right,
dissent is not treason,
a political party that places its own agenda above the solidarity and welfare of the nation is not democratic but tyrannical,
and our political leaders are not bosses or representatives of god on earth but public servants.
Because I say these things, am I then your enemy?
#

I agree with this and the answer to your question is no.

A man must have honor and respect for himself before he can have it for God and Country.

BTW, dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

[arabaliozian]

Re: history

Mr. Baliozian. You say many have accused Americans of Genocide in Vietnam and that Vietnamese themselves do not blame the American people but put the fault on the US government.
That is a fallacy. There is no doubt that US bombers were responsible for terrible deaths in Vietnam and the US GI’s did some terrible things beyond the code of honor but to categorize this into a Genocide would not only be incorrect but it demeans the definition of Genocide which you do not seem to be aware of. Mr. Baliozian I am very surprised that you do not know this but a Genocide is always committed by the STATE (Government) against its own citizens. I suggest you look up the correct definition.
The Vietnamese were not leaving under the laws and protection of the US government, furthermore there was no land lost to the invading forces who were not planning on occupying and conquering the Vietnamese lands. No doubt many were massacred but that does not qualify as Genocide like Darfur....... and incidentally just yesterday the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Omar al-Bashir, the president of Sudan, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in connection with the Darfur conflict. Would this not be a step in the right direction for the remaining victims and humanity in whole? Sure, it cannot bring the dead back but this does set a precedent for the future and makes it legal in a sense that “IT DID HAPPEN” which later on can be used for compensation and return of any lost land.


I see you have advanced your proposed relations with Turks from friends to brothers. Well Sir, it is very hard to make friends let alone brothers with an enemy who wants to kill you.

Below is a typical confession I squeeze out of Ultra-Nationalist Turks (granted this guy is not as seasoned as others I come across and a bit confused). Please explain how we can become brothers.

<<<<<<<<<If it is really a genocide

SO WHAT ! ! ! Ottoman xxxish generals and the army generally occured with generally region Kurds does make Turks to be responsible ?

Also I am the 4. generation, am I responsible for that no!!.. Turkey and Ottoman Empire are not same thing.>>>>>>>>>>>

Do you see the problem Mr. Baliozian?

whether or not what the yanks did to vietnam is genocide is not up to me or you to decide. i was simply quoting Sartre...you are free to agree or disagree. i have no objection and no answer for you.
the meaning or definition of genocide can be found in any dictionary. so that too is beyond our choice.

[arabaliozian]

Re: history

Thursday, March 5, 2009
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REFLECTIONS
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When I was a total ignoramus, I always assumed I knew more than the average Joe I happened to be dealing with. Now it's the other way around: I always assume to know less.
*
You can tell how ignorant a man is by how hard he tries to make you think he knows better.
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The most ungodly people are those who speak in His name, and the most dangerous dupes are those who believe them.
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I reject the notion that to be a good Armenian means to be a bundle of prejudices and nurse an unsettled score. Which amounts to saying, to be a good Armenian means to be a bad human being.
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What's uppermost in the mind of a successful writer is to live up to his reputation. Which is why as a marginal scribbler and a total failure I find my status both liberating and stimulating.
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It is written: “No one can be as dangerous as the man who has nothing to lose.”
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The greatest challenge a country faces is not electing great leaders but leaders who are the least threat to its welfare. As for our unelected bosses, bishops, and benefactors: they might as well be our Bermuda Triangle.
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Our ghazetajis operate on the assumption that the average Armenian reader prefers to read about little successes (no matter how imaginary) than colossal failures (no matter how real). Never underestimate the cunning of idiots.
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Prejudice allows a man to tailor his questions to fit his answers.
*
If you don't know, pretend to know. Few people will have the time and appetite to get into a useless argument with a worthless phony. At least, that has been my experience.
#
Friday, March 6, 2009
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MOSAIC
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Truth as a mosaic of lies -- like a pleasing design made of worthless pieces of glass or stone.
*
God as a point of reference or God as a means to expose our failings and imperfections, yes. But God as a license to do this, that, and the other – I say that's damn close to confusing God with the Devil.
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What could be more absurd than to say, what I believe is true, what you believe is a lie. And yet...
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Let us teach ourselves to question everything, beginning with our own judgment.
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To say that ideas acquire legitimacy only when they serve our interests is to undermine the legitimacy of all ideas.
*
What follows is a true story. It happened last year in a Greyhound bus in Canada. A passenger stabs another passenger – a totally unprovoked attack -- and beheads him. When arrested and tried, he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. God made him do it, he explains.
I suggest the following definition of man: a creature who cannot tell God from the Devil.
*
If repetition is a crime, who is the victim? If repetition is a transgression, where is the harm?
#
Saturday, March 7, 2009
***********************************************
QUESTION
***********************************************
Win an argument and lose a friend.
It has happened to me more than once.
Some of my worst enemies today are former friends; and they have become enemies because of a minor disagreement on an irrelevant topic.
But perhaps they were never friends, and what they lost was much more than an argument.
We are a confused bunch. No doubt about that.
We are confused because we have been shaped by alien, tyrannical, and unjust laws – laws that viewed dissent as a capital offense, and desire for self-determination (i.e. freedom), that most human of all desires, as a crime against humanity or the integrity of the empire.
When contradicted we feel threatened. There are even those among us (I call them skinheads) who see verbal abuse as a legitimate form of counter-argument.
We will be born again as human beings on the day we learn to have a friendly disagreement.
Remember my friends:
free speech is a fundamental human right,
dissent is not treason,
a political party that places its own agenda above the solidarity and welfare of the nation is not democratic but tyrannical,
and our political leaders are not bosses or representatives of god on earth but public servants.
Because I say these things, am I then your enemy?
#