Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

[TomServo]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

By the way, are there any explanations as to why the Armenians did not have a writing system until the 400s? Their proximity to the Sumerians, Akkadians, and other Semitic peoples (I know, Sumerians weren't Semitic) would suggest that there should have been this diffusion of the alphabet, yet it was not until Christianity and Mashtots that a Greek-derived alphabet came. Am I missing something here? Was there a pre-Masthots' alphabet in existence?

They used the Greek alphabet.

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Do you think there is a possibility that the Georgians and other Caucasian-type linguistic groups are related to the Sumerians? I am saying this only because Sumerian is an agglutinative (and I think split-ergative) language, something that is the case with Urartian-Hurrian and other Georgian/Caucasian languages.

I'm wondering if there was once a wide region of agglutinative-split-ergative languages spoken throughout Mesopotamia, eastern Anatolia, and the Caucasus, which was then displaced by Semitic (Akkadian, Assyrian, etc.) form the south and Indo-European from the East (Persian, Median, etc.) and West (Hittite, Armenian, etc.). The fact that these languages survived in the Caucasus would be explained by the isolation conferred by the mountains and/or the fact that Indo-Europeans had not yet spread to reach the northern reaches of the Caucasus. At this time Iranic Sarmatians and Scythians were in the Ukrainian step and central Asia while Slavs were still in Poland. Just a hypothesis.

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

I don't think anyone, sane and serious, would argue that there are older civilizations out there. By the way, I think that comparing the ages of civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you consider to be a civilization. Personally I think Sumerians are the forefathers of all civilizations, which is why Asia Minor and surrounding areas are called the "Cradle of Civilizations". Egypt is also legendary and was a developed civilization in very ancient antiquity. I'd consider Greeks to be quote old as well, although the true classic Greek civilization really arrived during the time Armenia was also an established kingdom: circa 7th c. BC.

Sure. Sumerians were the founders of civilization as a whole. They gave us writing, the wheel, etc. But Greeks and xxxs gave us what we call today Western civilization.

I don't know if you are a aware of this, but Greeks substantially predate the 5th century B.C., when there was the classic Greek civilization. Mycenae and Argos were Greek back in 1600 B.C. They were literate back then, using a Linear B syllabary. The Dorian invasion and the Greek "dark ages" followed, and then centuries later the Greek polis' arrive and we have this explosion of classical civilization. In the mean time, Linear B as the writing system was replaced by a Semitic-derived alphabet from the Phoenicians, who in turn got it from the Sumerians.

By the way, are there any explanations as to why the Armenians did not have a writing system until the 400s? Their proximity to the Sumerians, Akkadians, and other Semitic peoples (I know, Sumerians weren't Semitic) would suggest that there should have been this diffusion of the alphabet, yet it was not until Christianity and Mashtots that a Greek-derived alphabet came. Am I missing something here? Was there a pre-Masthots' alphabet in existence?

[karoaper]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

No problem. Perhaps I am ignorant of the fact that Georgians are a "new people." Correct me if you wish.

However, Armenian claims of being "the oldest" or "the founder of civilization" or some such are absurd. Armenians have many things to be proud of, not least the age of their culture and the forms it has produced, their primacy as the first Christian state, and their perserverance despite millenia of oppression and persecution. But alleging anything beyond that smells of Albanian claims of being "the oldest in the Balkans, before the Greeks," of producing Napoleon, St. Jerome, Justinian, etc. - sounds great but is factually untrue.

It is well known that the constructers of Western civilization were the Greeks and the xxxs. The Greeks gave us art, music, literature, drama, rhetoric, mathematics, physics, democracy, philosophy, etc. The xxxs gave us monotheism and indirectly Christianity. That's just the way it is.

I don't think anyone, sane and serious, would argue that there are older civilizations out there. By the way, I think that comparing the ages of civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you consider to be a civilization. Personally I think Sumerians are the forefathers of all civilizations, which is why Asia Minor and surrounding areas are called the "Cradle of Civilizations". Egypt is also legendary and was a developed civilization in very ancient antiquity. I'd consider Greeks to be quote old as well, although the true classic Greek civilization really arrived during the time Armenia was also an established kingdom: circa 7th c. BC.

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Haha, Georgians. You forgot Alabamans and Mississippians.

I wonder what you'd say to an Armenian who pretended to know more about Slavic history and anthropology than a Slav.

No problem. Perhaps I am ignorant of the fact that Georgians are a "new people." Correct me if you wish.

However, Armenian claims of being "the oldest" or "the founder of civilization" or some such are absurd. Armenians have many things to be proud of, not least the age of their culture and the forms it has produced, their primacy as the first Christian state, and their perserverance despite millenia of oppression and persecution. But alleging anything beyond that smells of Albanian claims of being "the oldest in the Balkans, before the Greeks," of producing Napoleon, St. Jerome, Justinian, etc. - sounds great but is factually untrue.

It is well known that the constructers of Western civilization were the Greeks and the xxxs. The Greeks gave us art, music, literature, drama, rhetoric, mathematics, physics, democracy, philosophy, etc. The xxxs gave us monotheism and indirectly Christianity. That's just the way it is.

[karoaper]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

Haha, Georgians. You forgot Alabamans and Mississippians.

I wonder what you'd say to an Armenian who pretended to know more about Slavic history and anthropology than a Slav.

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

stupid low race gay turk see this and shut up:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html

http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01AUG06/CoverStory_Zora.htm

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Armenian_Diaspora/index.php?showtopic=199

do u need more??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/ar...le_origins.php

Hater. I'm not Turkish. I'm Slavic with a bit of French and German.

Do you just call all people who disagree with you Turks and gays?

[Marie]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Let's address some delusions:

1.) Armenian collusion with the Nazis on racial grounds is disgusting. If they simply wanted to state they were Aryans to survive, that is understandable. Germany was an ally of Turkey in both world wars and being declared "Aryan" by the Nazis is no particular honor.

2.) "Aryan" can refer to three things:

1.) The German racial theory of Germanic/Nordics being "the purest" Aryan, with several other Indo-European peoples

2.) the Indo-European peoples of Iran (and North India)

3.) Indo-European ethnic groups, meaning 1.) north Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis; 2.) Indo-European Iranians, Afghans, and Tajiks; 3.) (extinct) Tocharians of western China; 4.) (extinct) Hittites of Anatolia; 5.) Armenians; 6.) Hellenic peoples (modern descendants are Greeks); 7.) Slavic East Slavs, South Slavs, and West Slavs; 8.) Baltic Lithuanians, Latvians, and extinct groups like Prussians; 9.) Teutonic English, Germans, Scandinavians, and Netherlanders; 10.) Latin French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Vlachs and Romanians.... 11.) Celtic Scots, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Bretons; and 12.) (extinct) ancient Balkan and Italian languages such as Illyrian, Thracian, and Dacian.

4.) Armenian is NOT an Iranian branch language. It was thought to be for a long time due to a lot of Persian/Parthian vocabulary, but it is actually a distinct Indo-European group.

5.) Armenian culture and language and ethnicity is in no way directly descended from the Urartians. Urartians spoke a Hurro-Urartian language family, unrelated to Semitic or Indo-European. Hurro-Urartian is agglutinative and split-ergative (NOTHING to do with Armenian or any other Indo-European language) and is hypothesized to be related to Northeast Caucasian languages such as Chechen and Ingush. Armenians may be the genetic descendants of Urartians by intermarriage, and they may have been influenced by Urartians culturally, but they were definitely distinct groups.

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

7.) The origins of the Indo-Europeans and their spread is up for debate. The major theories are the Armenian hypothesis, the Anatolian hypothesis, where migration would spread through Iran in one direction (to China, Central Asia, and Indai), and up into Europe via the Balkans andor Caucasus. The other major theory is the Kurgan hypothesis of Gimbutas which states that it began in modern eastern Ukraine on the Black Sea. This is currently the dominant theory of IE expansion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

stupid low race gay turk see this and shut up:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html

http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01AUG06/CoverStory_Zora.htm

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Armenian_Diaspora/index.php?showtopic=199

do u need more??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/articles/aryan_people_origins.php

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Let's address some delusions:

1.) Armenian collusion with the Nazis on racial grounds is disgusting. If they simply wanted to state they were Aryans to survive, that is understandable. Germany was an ally of Turkey in both world wars and being declared "Aryan" by the Nazis is no particular honor.

2.) "Aryan" can refer to three things:

1.) The German racial theory of Germanic/Nordics being "the purest" Aryan, with several other Indo-European peoples

2.) the Indo-European peoples of Iran (and North India)

3.) Indo-European ethnic groups, meaning 1.) north Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis; 2.) Indo-European Iranians, Afghans, and Tajiks; 3.) (extinct) Tocharians of western China; 4.) (extinct) Hittites of Anatolia; 5.) Armenians; 6.) Hellenic peoples (modern descendants are Greeks); 7.) Slavic East Slavs, South Slavs, and West Slavs; 8.) Baltic Lithuanians, Latvians, and extinct groups like Prussians; 9.) Teutonic English, Germans, Scandinavians, and Netherlanders; 10.) Latin French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Vlachs and Romanians.... 11.) Celtic Scots, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Bretons; and 12.) (extinct) ancient Balkan and Italian languages such as Illyrian, Thracian, and Dacian.

4.) Armenian is NOT an Iranian branch language. It was thought to be for a long time due to a lot of Persian/Parthian vocabulary, but it is actually a distinct Indo-European group.

5.) Armenian culture and language and ethnicity is in no way directly descended from the Urartians. Urartians spoke a Hurro-Urartian language family, unrelated to Semitic or Indo-European. Hurro-Urartian is agglutinative and split-ergative (NOTHING to do with Armenian or any other Indo-European language) and is hypothesized to be related to Northeast Caucasian languages such as Chechen and Ingush. Armenians may be the genetic descendants of Urartians by intermarriage, and they may have been influenced by Urartians culturally, but they were definitely distinct groups.

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

7.) The origins of the Indo-Europeans and their spread is up for debate. The major theories are the Armenian hypothesis, the Anatolian hypothesis, where migration would spread through Iran in one direction (to China, Central Asia, and Indai), and up into Europe via the Balkans andor Caucasus. The other major theory is the Kurgan hypothesis of Gimbutas which states that it began in modern eastern Ukraine on the Black Sea. This is currently the dominant theory of IE expansion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

[Marie]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

You still have not gotten the essence of my statements regarding Urartu.

The Araratian Federation which was known as "Urartu/Biainili" was comprised of various nations living around lake Van that eventually fused/evolved to become what we today know as Armenians/Hays. The fact remains, there are intimate mythological, linguistic, genetic and folkloric connections between modern Armenian heritage and the ancient culture of Urartu. The language spoken by official Urartu is said to have been late Hurrian, and suspected of being a dying language at the time. However, the population of Urartu is speculated to have spoken early Armenian, one that incorporated heavy Urartian/Hurrian influences into its Indo-European/Aryan structure. As the Hurrian language stopped being used, the language we today know as "Armenian" emerged. Also, the term "Hay" is linguistically connected to the Urartian/Hurrian supreme God called Khaldi.

Thus, the Urartians/Hurrians were in every sense of the word - Hay/Armenian.

Just get the notion of "Armens" somehow marching into Anatolia from the Balkans and taking over the former lands of Urartu out of your head. That story is a myth, no such thing happened. The Indo-European/Aryan language spoken by some proto-Armenian nations was indigenous to the region in question, it did not come from elsewhere.



Just read his works in detail and you will see what I'm saying. Don't forget, you are talking about a man that lived approximately two thousand five hundred years ago. However, in the absence of other contemporary texts Herodotus is the best we got.

its correct the Armenian, with the Iranian, were the first Aryan race who had spread westward (around 5000 years) and brought to western countries their great civilisation and knowledges.. it had been proved by almost every scholar and scientist (from whatever countries) everyone who disagree with that is only getting jealous of this true facts...