Armenia Assaulted by Orange

[Azad]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

I see these events very positively for Armenia. A clear signal was sent to ANY opposition in the future that the Georgian scenario will not work in Armenia at least for another decade. In the same time let us hope the present government will focus on cleaning some of the corruption too. I understand it will not completely disappear but it will create an environment of check and balances. It is all good. And for Levin ... israel is starting to look more appealing every day.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Looking back at all of these events and trying to reason as to what happened. Something is missing in the equation ... the “western” support of Levin or the opposition AFTER these events. It almost feels like they have been used and the present government carefully is trying to barbecue Levin and his gang. Why did Levin visit Moscow few months ago? Saddam before invading Kuwait got the approval of the American ambassador ... Levin got his approval too. Fck him he got what he deserved. The Armenian government sent a CLEAR signal to the "west" if you continue fuking we us the war with the azerbaboun is back on and you can kiss the pipeline goodbye. It worked. Well played.

Two things were apparent from the beginning. One, even going back to the Clinton administration Levon was encouraged by Washington to stay put in Armenia and look to return to power. Two, when the movement of street porniks lead by the head pornik began, Washington distanced itself from it and the American news media choose to ignore it. Levon made several angry comments about this, clearly revealing his disappointment. As I stated in another post, I think the reason why Washington chose not jump on Levon's bandwagon was because it did not think Levon would be able to succeed, thus it did not want to be on the loosing side, so to speak. What's more, had Washington openly sided with Levon, the people in Armenia would have reacted negatively to the movement. There is also a real possibility that Moscow kept America out of this fiasco. Rift between Washington and Yerevan is already being felt:

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Armenia: The United States is Muted on the Armenian Political Crisis

The continuing political crisis Armenia stemming from the March 1 violence in Yerevan has unfolded with little comment from the United States, either from the US government or from influential Armenian-American lobbying groups. The root cause of the crisis is found in the disputed presidential election on February 19, in which Prime Minister Serzh Sarkisian was declared the winner. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Asserting that widespread fraud enabled Sarkisian’s victory, the main challenger Levon Ter-Petrossian mounted a permanent protest in Yerevan.

A government attempt to disperse the demonstrators during the pre-dawn hours of March 1 sparked an escalating confrontation that culminated in armed clashes. Officially, eight people died in the clashes, but witnesses believe the death toll could be substantially higher. Under state of emergency regulations imposed on March 1, the government enjoys broad powers to restrict press freedom, making verification of competing claims next to impossible. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

A statement by Karekin II, the spiritual leader of the Armenian Apostolic Church, urged that both sides compromise. "Let us practice wisdom and reasoning, refraining from fraternal hostility and actions that deepen the discord. All problems and issues which trouble us, shall be solved through peaceful means, respect for the law and the safe paths of dialogue,” Karekin II said in a statement issued March 3. "Each of us must answer for our actions before history and our generations. Let us not risk the stability of our country with further unwise actions.”

Kocharian on March 5 vigorously defended his decision to impose a state of emergency, which in addition to restricting the flow on information, also allows for the limitation of non-governmental organization activity and the roll-back of civil liberties, including freedom of assembly. The president appeared to place all blame for developments on his political opponents, and vowed to “to track down all inciters, masterminds and executors of the unrest,” according to comments distributed by the official Armenpress news agency. Kocharian also stated that he had no intention of extending the state of emergency, which is due to expire on March 20.

The government’s media blackout has silenced at least five Armenian news outlets. And in a move that is sure to create difficulties for US-Armenian relations, President Robert Kocharian’s adminsitration has also suspended broadcasts of the US-funded Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, and has blocked the RFE/RL website in Armenia. There are several reasons for the relative US silence on recent developments in Armenia, analysts say. On a geopolitical level, Armenia is not deemed of vital strategic importance by Washington, as the Caucasus country lies outside the Caspian Basin energy corridor that passes through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey.

In addition, the Armenian crisis is not viewed in Washington as a struggle pitting democratic forces against an authoritarian regime. It is more of an internecine struggle, in which a dispute among an entrenched political elite over the division of spoils has escalated to the point where it got out of control. Ter-Petrosian and his supporters are generally not seen as being any more democratically oriented than the incumbent Kocharian-Sarkisian team. To substantiate that point, some observers point to the fact that in the 1996 presidential election, Ter-Petroisian, who was running then as an incumbent, was accused of many of the same electoral abuses that he now assails the Kocharian administration for.

Finally, Armenian-American diaspora groups, which wield significant power in Washington’s policy towards Armenia, have chosen not to call attention to the crisis there. The State Department issued a mildly worded statement on March 1, condemning the violence. The statement implied equal responsibility for both the government and the protesters. “Any unlawful actions such as violence and looting worsen the situation and must stop. We hope that the State of Emergency declared today will be lifted promptly and that political dialogue resumes,” the statement said.

But that is not enough, said Cory Welt, associate director of the Eurasian Strategy Project at Georgetown University. “The United States and the Europeans should certainly do one thing – stop pretending there is democratic progress where there is none. It’s one thing to shy away from giving the street false cause for optimism; it is another to be so patronizing about ‘baby steps’ toward democracy when there are none.”

“What makes the Armenian case so unusual is the willingness of the United States and Europe to move forward with business as usual when there is no business to be done - Armenia is neither a security nor an energy partner for the West,” Welt said.

Given the recent developments, Welt suggested that Washington should suspend aid from the Millennium Challenge Account, which is supposed to encourage Armenia to build democratic institutions. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. The flow of Millennium Challenge assistance should not resume until there is a full, independent accounting for the violence on March 1 and 2, Welt added.

There has also been a relatively muted response from Congress, including from the members who are active in pro-Armenian issues. Armenian lobby groups have not pressed Congress to get involved in the crisis in Armenia, according to one Congressional staff member, speaking on condition of anonymity. That is partly because the lobby groups have political ties with the parties in power in Armenia, but partly because they feel that focusing on Armenia’s negatives is bad public relations.

“Frankly, in terms of the Armenian-American lobby, they get really ginned up and energized about the Armenian genocide resolution, but they don't really want to look at corruption, because that doesn't put them in a very favorable light,” the staffer said. “This doesn't help them with their agenda.” [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

The Armenian National Committee of America did not release any statement on the crisis, and as of the morning of March 5 its website carried no mention of the situation unfolding in Armenia. The Armenian Assembly of America did post a statement on its website, calling on all sides to “adhere to the rule of law and to refrain from violence, as well as to ensure that the media will cover the events as they take place with fairness and balance.” Neither organization returned calls and emails by a EurasiaNet correspondent seeking comment.

“Without energy or particular strategic importance, Armenia is left in the United States with the politically quite strong Armenian diaspora,” Welt said. “In the end, it is not the lobbies that should be held responsible, but their representatives in Congress who have far greater reason to be troubled by the hypocrisy of avoiding discussion or comparison of the internal state of Armenia when shaping US policy in its confrontations with Azerbaijan and Turkey.”

Part of the diaspora groups’ ambivalence can be explained by the fact that the main opposition candidate, Ter-Petrossian, strove to weaken the political strength of the Armenian diaspora when he was in office. In addition, his willingness to negotiate with Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh angered members of the diaspora groups. Ultimately, Ter-Petrosian’s willingness to negotiate on the Karabakh issue initiated a chain of events that led to his resignation in 1998. He was replaced by Kocharian.

The Karabakh contact line dividing Armenian and Azerbaijani troops was the scene of heavy fighting on March 4-5. Azerbaijani officials on March 5 claimed that Armenian forces launched an attack, in part out of a desire to distract attention from events in Yerevan. Armenian officials countered that Azerbaijani forces initiated the clash. The death toll was placed at between eight and 16. Kocharian, in commenting on the fighting, stated that officials in Baku were trying to take advantage of Armenia’s domestic difficulties. "In all likelihood Azerbaijani leaders thought that because of recent events in Yerevan, the army of Nagorno-Karabakh has lost its vigilance or communication,” Kocharian told Armenpress.

In addition, the Armenian diaspora groups tend to disengage from Armenian political issues because the corruption and authoritarianism conflict with the American values that they have acquired, said Yossi Shain, a political scientist at Georgetown University who studies the politics of diaspora groups. “One can argue that in the mind of the diaspora, Armenia as a homeland has served more as a notion, perhaps a mythical vision than as a concrete sovereign state,” Shain said. “If the [Armenian] state represents something hostile to their ideology, they will remove themselves. They will be more keen to identify with Armenia as a whole than to identify with one regime, if it violates what they consider to be the values of America.”

Source: http://www.eurasianet.org/armenia08/news/030508.shtml

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

And notice how this piece by "Radio Liberty" attempts to tie the "Karabagh Oligarchs" to "closed borders"... They are using the peoples dissatisfaction against the Armenian state. This is all part of the plan to place a wedge between Armenia and Artsakh. Sadly, we have significant numbers of low-lives amongst us that happily and proudly go along with this agenda. I just got off the telephone with a close friend of mine in Yerevan. We were talking about the deaths over the weekend and he said that the one military death was that of a Captain who jumped on a hand granade that was thrown by the rioters to protect his young conscripts. What a sad-sad situation we are in... What did that pornik Levon and his xxxxed up followers do to us... I ask you all to please refrain from "debating" this topic with Levon supporters. These people are mentally retarded demons and low-class street porniks. xxxx them all - literally, physically and metaphorically. These people have damaged Armenia and they have pushed many of us reluctantly into the Serzh Sargsyan camp.

Armenian

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Armenia: Crisis Spotlights 'Karabakh Clan'

By Brian Whitmore

Sarkisian, Serzh; "Yes I am Karabakhian, but I am Armenian first" As Armenia's first post-Soviet president in the 1990s, Levon Ter-Petrossian brought in top officials from Nagorno-Karabakh to serve in his government. Today, as an opposition leader, Ter-Petrossian is the most outspoken critic of what he and his allies call the "Karabakh clan," lambasting his former proteges for raiding the country's treasury, strangling the economy, and stifling democracy.

The main targets of the broadside have been outgoing President Robert Kocharian and his preferred successor, Serzh Sarkisian, the current prime minister who defeated Ter-Petrossian in Armenia's February 19 presidential election. Both Kocharian and Sarkisian hail from Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian-controlled and populated enclave within Azerbaijan over which Baku and Yerevan fought a war in 1988-94. Speaking on the campaign trail in February, Ter-Petrossian accused Kocharian and Sarkisian of bringing their Karabakh allies to Armenia and handing them the crown xxxels of the economy.

"Because of these two persons, 15,000 people have moved from Karabakh to Armenia, mainly Yerevan, in the past 10 years," Ter-Petrossian said. "Each of them has been given a position. As if that wasn't enough, now the business sphere is also being given to them." Sarkisian's pat response to the criticism has been to say: "Yes I am Karabakhian, but I am Armenian first." Armenia's controversial election has led to allegations of fraud, government resignations, violent street protests, a deadly police crackdown, and a state of emergency. It has also exposed a deep rift in society between those born in Armenia proper and those from Nagorno-Karabakh who have resettled in the country.

Critics allege that Karabakh Armenians have benefited from government favoritism and that Kocharian and Sarkisian have dragged their feet on formally ending the conflict to advance their cronies' business interests. Yerevan-based political analyst Stepan Grigorian, who is sympathetic to Ter-Petrossian and the opposition, says having a president from Nagorno-Karabakh "who governs Armenia very badly" has fueled resentment. "Certain negative feelings exist," Grigorian says. "They do not extend to ordinary people of Karabakh, but refer to those people who came to Armenia from there. Robert Kocharian brought many people with him, and appointed them to high positions. This created more caution. So yes, certain tension exists, of course."

The Karabakh Oligarchs

Armenia had control of Karabakh when a cease-fire was reached in 1994. But the victory came with a price, as Armenia's borders with Azerbaijan and Turkey have remained sealed. Ter-Petrossian, who became Armenia's first post-independence president in 1991, brought Sarkisian -- who was a senior military official in Nagorno-Karabakh -- to Yerevan in 1993 to serve as defense minister. In 1998, he named Kocharian, who served as chairman of Nagorno-Karabakh's State Defense Committee and later as president, Armenia's prime minister.

It was a decision Ter-Petrossian soon regretted. He proposed a compromise solution to Azerbaijan on Nagorno-Karabakh that Kocharian staunchly opposed. Ter-Petrossian was forced to resign over the issue in February 1998 and Kocharian won a special election to succeed him. Under Kocharian, Sarkisian served in a number of posts including defense minister, interior minister, national-security minister, presidential chief of staff, and most recently, prime minister.

Aram Abramian, editor in chief of the Yerevan-based daily newspaper "Aravot" and who has roots in Nagorno-Karabakh, says Kocharian and Sarkisian brought in associates from the territory who took over state posts and dominated the business elite. "There are 20, 30 families -- oligarchs -- people who, thanks to the opportunities that are provided to them by the authorities, became rich, and have wide possibilities of avoiding taxes and custom fees," Abramian says, adding that well-connected moguls were able to gain "monopolies" over fuel, sugar, and other commodities.

"Others, who are less powerful, do not have this right," Abramian adds. "Not all of these people are from Karabakh. It does not matter where they come from -- the most important thing is for them to serve the authorities." Among those identified by analysts as part of the Karabakh clan are Kocharian's son, Sedrak, who reportedly controls mobile-phone imports; Barsegh Beglarian, who dominates the gas-station market; Mika Bagdasarov, who controls oil imports and heads the national airline; and Karen Karapetian, head of the Armrusgazard gas company, a joint venture with Russia's Gazprom.

Closed Borders

Abramian and other analysts say these oligarchs benefit from the lack of a final resolution to the Karabakh conflict and the closed borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan. "This is one of the reasons why these issues are not being solved, because to have open borders with Europe, Asia, and so on -- in [that] case, the flows of goods, in either direction, will be wider, and it will be more difficult to control them," Abramian says. "Now, however, when one narrow flow comes through Georgia and another, even narrower, comes via Iran, controlling these flows of goods is much easier."

Observers say such arrangements also stifle local production, hinder small business development, and ultimately harm the country's economy. And that is a major reason why one of Ter-Petrossian's main bases of support is among small and mid-level entrepreneurs. "This kind of economy -- when the high-ranking officials are importing goods -- leads to these same officials not being interested in promoting local production," Grigorian says. "And, because of this, it is in very difficult shape now. So during the elections, mid-size and big business wholly supported Ter-Petrossian."

There are slight cultural differences between native-born Armenians and those from Nagorno-Karabakh, according to analysts. Abramian says Karabakhians are more "favorably oriented toward Russia," are more likely to speak the Russian language, and are less religious than Armenians, for example. He adds, however, that it is the dominance of Kocharian and Sarkisian's allies that has fueled resentment against people from Nagorno-Karabakh, few of whom have benefited from the largesse.

"Armenian people, our compatriots who live in Karabakh -- or, like me, have roots there -- have nothing to do with this," Abramian says. "They are Armenians just like everybody else. However, two people who have kept power throughout a decade -- and plan to do so for many more decades -- they indeed provoked certain negative attitude within the Armenian population. For it was not only them, but their relatives, acquaintances -- tens, hundreds of them -- arrived here, and occupied high-ranking positions and had successful business careers. This triggers a natural reaction."

Source: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle...F28755717.html

[Azad]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Here is the cheap come back of Washington concerning the security of the pipeline. Notice they are more concerned for the Karabagh conflict and they are threatening to bring in the riots issue IF IF IF they don't keep the "cease-fire" promise.

"Armenia, Azerbaijan promise cease-fire
By DESMOND BUTLER, Associated Press Writer
26 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - A U.S. official says that Armenia and Azerbaijan have assured him that they have returned to a cease-fire along the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh after a recent shooting.


Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza says he now plans to deliver a stern message to Armenia about its recent crackdown on protesters alleging fraud in last month's election. Bryza is on his way to Armenia after meetings with government officials in Azerbaijan. He says he hopes to mediate the election dispute in meetings with the government and opposition.

He says he will tell the Armenian government that its violent crackdown "simply can't be repeated."

Violence between police and demonstrators has left eight people dead and more than 100 injured."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_armenia_azerbaijan_1

[Azad]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Who is this "Matthew Bryza" fcker?

"On August 23, 2007, he married Zeyno Baran in Istanbul - Turkey."
"He has a tendency of being either misquoted or his stateements being taken out of context, especially by the Armenian media."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Bryza

Who is his jeeish wife?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeyno_Baran

"Apparently, her mother Fyusu Muthlu is a xxx by origin, and that is why the turkishamericanjournal.com regards Zeyno as "shabathian", which means an apostate xxx."

[Armanen]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Abramian says Karabakhians are more "favorably oriented toward Russia," are more likely to speak the Russian language, and are less religious than Armenians

Look at this bs, this "description" of the differences is actually that between most Armenians and those from baku, who imo are trash for the most part.

As for the other things in the article, however much of it is true, I hope the authorities realize that things can not stay the same and economic progress needs to be more evenly spread out. Armenia is not in a good position to have an oligrachy, especially when their interests are not nationalist but financial.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Look at this bs, this "description" of the differences is actually that between most Armenians and those from baku, who imo are trash for the most part.

What???

100% of all Armenians from Baku, Sumgait and Kirovabad originate from Artsakh! All of them, and I repeat, ALL of them originate from somewhere in Artsakh (Martakert, Shushi, Stepanakert etc etc.) An Armenian born in Baku, doesn't matter how long ago that was, doesn't matter if he is 3rd or 33rd generation, always considers himself as Karabakhtsi because thats where his ancestors came from. In Baku, before the pogroms, there where entire neighborhoods of people who all came from one village, say village X in Artsakh then next to it there was another neighborhood which had all its people from village Y also in Artsakh....

I find your comments very offensive and to tell you the truth if you would have made those comments to my face I would have punched the sh!t out of you ...BTW I'm NOT Bakvetsi, Sumgaitsi or Kirovabadtzi! Let me make this crystal clear! ...No, I'm just an Armenian and it's very, very offensive for me to hear such slander against other Armenians especially against this particular group of Armenians (Bakvetsi) that have suffered so much recently, and much more than any other group of our people since the Genocide in Western Armenia.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

Yeghbayr, what Armenen attempted to say, albeit it not very clearly, is that regardless of their origins Baku Armenians tend to be more assimilated and less nationalistic than Artsakh Armenians. To a great degree, it is true. Like all of our diasporan groups, Armenians from Baku tend to be quite assimilated, many mixed with Jews, Azeris and Russians... However, all this is beyond the scope of the crisis we are having in Armenia. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if an Armenian is from the Congo - as long as he/she is a self-respecting Armenian.

What???

100% of all Armenians from Baku, Sumgait and Kirovabad originate from Artsakh! All of them, and I repeat, ALL of them originate from somewhere in Artsakh (Martakert, Shushi, Stepanakert etc etc.) An Armenian born in Baku, doesn't matter how long ago that was, doesn't matter if he is 3rd or 33rd generation, always considers himself as Karabakhtsi because thats where his ancestors came from. In Baku, before the pogroms, there where entire neighborhoods of people who all came from one village, say village X in Artsakh then next to it there was another neighborhood which had all its people from village Y also in Artsakh....

I find your comments very offensive and to tell you the truth if you would have made those comments to my face I would have punched the sh!t out of you ...BTW I'm NOT Bakvetsi, Sumgaitsi or Kirovabadtzi! Let me make this crystal clear! ...No, I'm just an Armenian and it's very, very offensive for me to hear such slander against other Armenians especially against this particular group of Armenians (Bakvetsi) that have suffered so much recently, and much more than any other group of our people since the Genocide in Western Armenia.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

What???

100% of all Armenians from Baku, Sumgait and Kirovabad originate from Artsakh! All of them, and I repeat, ALL of them originate from somewhere in Artsakh (Martakert, Shushi, Stepanakert etc etc.) An Armenian born in Baku, doesn't matter how long ago that was, doesn't matter if he is 3rd or 33rd generation, always considers himself as Karabakhtsi because thats where his ancestors came from. In Baku, before the pogroms, there where entire neighborhoods of people who all came from one village, say village X in Artsakh then next to it there was another neighborhood which had all its people from village Y also in Artsakh....

I find your comments very offensive and to tell you the truth if you would have made those comments to my face I would have punched the sh!t out of you ...BTW I'm NOT Bakvetsi, Sumgaitsi or Kirovabadtzi! Let me make this crystal clear! ...No, I'm just an Armenian and it's very, very offensive for me to hear such slander against other Armenians especially against this particular group of Armenians (Bakvetsi) that have suffered so much recently, and much more than any other group of our people since the Genocide in Western Armenia.

Yeghbayr, what Armenen attempted to say, albeit it not very clearly, is that regardless of their origins Baku Armenians tend to be more assimilated and less nationalistic than Artsakh Armenians. To a great degree, it is true. Like all of our diasporan groups, Armenians from Baku tend to be quite assimilated, many mixed with xxxs, Azeris and Russians... However, all this is beyond the scope of the crisis we are having in Armenia. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if an Armenian is from the Congo - as long as he/she is a self-respecting Armenian.

Yes, that is what I meant, kasparov is a good example of what I mean. The f*** was in Yerevan once, and it was only cause he had to be, the world chess championships were held there.

I do not care where an Armenian is from either, as long as he/she is self respecting which includes being patriotic.

And do not talk sh** on a forum, you do not know anything about me or my fighting abilities, so I suggest you stop acting like an internet warrior.

[Azad]

Re: Armenia Assaulted by Orange

This could be Mr Medvedev's first foreign test as president

Very interesting ending. If I was Medvedev what would I do? What about that oil refinery at the border with Iran? Not enough .... what else? I know, I know what would I do ... I will give Armenia a new Nuclear power plant at a very very very subsidized price. Let us see how could the American beat that... let us see how could the American with their cheap Radio Free Pakistan could gain more sympathy than the Russians in Armenia.