Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

[Siggie]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

I don't really want to drag this out too much and, again, my condolences to the family, but certainly since we strayed off topic, intermarriage is the primary way culture erodes. If you are asking me is intermarriage the primary culprit, obviously, I would assume its not, the lack of parental guidance is also the culprit because its the lack of any sort of guidance that leads Armenians to intermarry.

Likewise, by you claiming quantity is not important and that we can reconstitute identity somehow, when we can't, leads to more and more people being open to intermarriage. Again, it will occur to a point where their is nothing that can be used to reconstitute the Armenian identity since everyone will be of mixed background.

You mean my claiming quality is not important? I didn't say that... nor did I say intermarriage is okay or should be encouraged. I think Federate echoed the same points more concisely than I had, but I'll try again. Our numbers are too few; Armenians should be with Armenians. However for the same reason, our low numbers, I do not think we should be hasty in dismissing people as lost. Whether it is because they are from a mixed background or because they are lacking somewhat in their appreciation for their culture. I think some of these individuals can come around with a little encouragement. For instance, wouldn't you agree that there might be some young Armenians who has grown up in the US and speak Armenian, but cannot read or write, do not know much about Armenian history, and do not follow news regarding Armenia, etc that can still awaken and embrace their culture, learn to read/write, etc? My point is simply that we are too few to give up on those who do not meet our standards of quality. Some of them, with a little effort, can improve their "quality" still. They aren't necessarily lost forever.

I was speaking independently of the new story you had posted. Where I disagreed about the story was with the comments attributing what happened in this case to the girl's hooking up with an odar. If we're not cautious about who we hook up with (irrespective of ethnicity), we can end up with someone unstable and violent. This could have also occurred if this girl had gotten together with an abusive and unstable Armenian. That's all. I just thought it was a little unfair to say she deserved what happened or precipitated it solely because she had a child with an odar.

I hope this clears it up a little.

[Virgil]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

I assumed you were talking about intermarriage when you started about impurity. I'm just trying to understand your point. So, when you're saying impurity and mixing solutions you're referring to diluting the cultural identity?

And just for the sake of clarity, what is it that you think I'm advocating that is happening in our communities as a result of being advocated?

I don't really want to drag this out too much and, again, my condolences to the family, but certainly since we strayed off topic, intermarriage is the primary way culture erodes. If you are asking me is intermarriage the primary culprit, obviously, I would assume its not, the lack of parental guidance is also the culprit because its the lack of any sort of guidance that leads Armenians to intermarry.

Likewise, by you claiming quantity is not important and that we can reconstitute identity somehow, when we can't, leads to more and more people being open to intermarriage. Again, it will occur to a point where their is nothing that can be used to reconstitute the Armenian identity since everyone will be of mixed background.

[Siggie]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

First of all, I never claim nor do I ever claim that their exists a "genetically pure" Armenian, however, first and foremost, if you are asking me, "is race a culture and identity", clearly, my answer is, "yes". For example, if you look at Barack Obama, he is a handsome educated black man, who, although he is black, was raised by his white half. Now, even though, clearly, he has white cultural influences, he considers himself black and has chosen to stay black even though he was nurtured white. Therefore, even though this is not reflective of all the cases, it can be presumed that race is certainly a identity and does manifest itself as a culture because people of different races, irrespective of what race you come from, more often then none, do consider race a point of connection.

Second of all, the historic migration of people and the intermingling of people with different backgrounds, historically, was due forces and entities that did not present the population with a choice. Meaning, if you were to pool the consensus of the various people that were forced to adopt foreign yoke, most, if not all, would be the opinion that they would not have liked to mix with other people. Yes, certainly, there has been the sharing of idea, technology, and culture, whether good or bad, the original inhabitants would not have liked to mix with them culturally and genetically. It is more accurate to be of the idea that yes, the sharing of culture did occur, but very discreetly and often, on the fringes of society. Even the Romans, who conquered much of the world, always considered themselves Romans and outsiders as "barbarians".

Again, I just want to highlight the very evident historical theme of the "outsider" and that your idea of people openly and willing "mixing" is a bit premature and inaccurate. Yes, people did share culture, ideas, and technology, but clearly, ethnic and racial borders were never crossed unless through rape, war, and invasion. In fact, historically, it was often the very mixing that always lead to the decline and often the extinction of a people. It is this very ideology of superior and inferior found within the nation-state that drives nations today, it is just well hidden.

Third of all, aside from this talk of genes you bring into the equation. I never brought up the topic nor did have I ever stated that their exists a "genetic" element. Clearly, I was pointing to the fact that identity is social constructed and because it is socially constructed, it is very wrong to think that quality does not manner when quality does matter. It doesn't take a moron to see that what you advocate and what is occurring in our communities are not mutually exclusive. The latter is the result of the prior.

I assumed you were talking about intermarriage when you started about impurity. I'm just trying to understand your point. So, when you're saying impurity and mixing solutions you're referring to diluting the cultural identity?

And just for the sake of clarity, what is it that you think I'm advocating that is happening in our communities as a result of being advocated?

[Virgil]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

I presume you're saying I had one of these unnatural responses? I don't see what part of what I posted was justification. I simply disagreed with the claim that this (getting murdered) wouldn't have happened had she not hooked up with an odar.

Well you certainly have an opinion now. Which I have to say isn't completely clear. Are you saying that we should exclude children who are mixed from our communities? Is the impurity you're referring to only genetic or do you mean cultural impurity as well and as such would you include the Armenians who aren't "Armenian" enough as well?

It doesn't really affect my response though, I'm more curious about what you suggest we do because of this impurity stuff.
Anyhow, let me point out that in our very early history there has been plenty of intermarrying with Parthians, Arabs, etc. So, I'm not sure we can claim any "purity" in our gene pool.
If the children resulting from these inter-marriages identify themselves as Armenian, embrace the culture, learn the language, and care about Armenia, then they are as Armenian as you and I irrespective of the fact that genetically they may be half or a quarter or whatever fraction Armenian.
Someone a quarter Armenian who has done these things is as Armenian and arguably more so than a "pure-blooded" *cringes at the term* Armenian who has assimilated and doesn't know or care to know the first thing about our culture.

First of all, I never claim nor do I ever claim that their exists a "genetically pure" Armenian, however, first and foremost, if you are asking me, "is race a culture and identity", clearly, my answer is, "yes". For example, if you look at Barack Obama, he is a handsome educated black man, who, although he is black, was raised by his white half. Now, even though, clearly, he has white cultural influences, he considers himself black and has chosen to stay black even though he was nurtured white. Therefore, even though this is not reflective of all the cases, it can be presumed that race is certainly a identity and does manifest itself as a culture because people of different races, irrespective of what race you come from, more often then none, do consider race a point of connection.

Second of all, the historic migration of people and the intermingling of people with different backgrounds, historically, was due forces and entities that did not present the population with a choice. Meaning, if you were to pool the consensus of the various people that were forced to adopt foreign yoke, most, if not all, would be the opinion that they would not have liked to mix with other people. Yes, certainly, there has been the sharing of idea, technology, and culture, whether good or bad, the original inhabitants would not have liked to mix with them culturally and genetically. It is more accurate to be of the idea that yes, the sharing of culture did occur, but very discreetly and often, on the fringes of society. Even the Romans, who conquered much of the world, always considered themselves Romans and outsiders as "barbarians".

Again, I just want to highlight the very evident historical theme of the "outsider" and that your idea of people openly and willing "mixing" is a bit premature and inaccurate. Yes, people did share culture, ideas, and technology, but clearly, ethnic and racial borders were never crossed unless through rape, war, and invasion. In fact, historically, it was often the very mixing that always lead to the decline and often the extinction of a people. It is this very ideology of superior and inferior found within the nation-state that drives nations today, it is just well hidden.

Third of all, aside from this talk of genes you bring into the equation. I never brought up the topic nor did have I ever stated that their exists a "genetic" element. Clearly, I was pointing to the fact that identity is social constructed and because it is socially constructed, it is very wrong to think that quality does not manner when quality does matter. It doesn't take a moron to see that what you advocate and what is occurring in our communities are not mutually exclusive. The latter is the result of the prior.

[Siggie]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

Pazooki, originally, I never posted this article to push forward a agenda, furthermore, the only people that really took this personally and were VERY defensive are members with a agenda. If you scroll up, I never posted a opinion on the article.

Personally, I think the reaction by Mos and Armanen was very normal, it would be the same response if roles were reversed, if we were non-Armenians on a non-Armenian forum. The unnatural response was the sort of justification postulated by some members and I can assure everyone that if indeed the animal in question was a Armenian instead of a Non-Armenian, the article would be the talk of the town.

I presume you're saying I had one of these unnatural responses? I don't see what part of what I posted was justification. I simply disagreed with the claim that this (getting murdered) wouldn't have happened had she not hooked up with an odar.

With regards to the debate about "quality over quantity", I agree with Armanen. Let us just say that if you have two cups of water. Call the pure one A and the impure one B. If you were to mix them, you make a solution, call it C. Clearly, C is not pure, now, it can be said that C is "more pure" than B, but C is not pure.

Well, take this experiment and extend to the infinite power, say you have n impure cups with different impurities. Take all n cups and mix it into A, clearly, you would not only have a new solution that is not pure, but you have indefinitely destroyed what ever purity that was in A.

Well you certainly have an opinion now. Which I have to say isn't completely clear. Are you saying that we should exclude children who are mixed from our communities? Is the impurity you're referring to only genetic or do you mean cultural impurity as well and as such would you include the Armenians who aren't "Armenian" enough as well?

It doesn't really affect my response though, I'm more curious about what you suggest we do because of this impurity stuff.
Anyhow, let me point out that in our very early history there has been plenty of intermarrying with Parthians, Arabs, etc. So, I'm not sure we can claim any "purity" in our gene pool.
If the children resulting from these inter-marriages identify themselves as Armenian, embrace the culture, learn the language, and care about Armenia, then they are as Armenian as you and I irrespective of the fact that genetically they may be half or a quarter or whatever fraction Armenian.
Someone a quarter Armenian who has done these things is as Armenian and arguably more so than a "pure-blooded" *cringes at the term* Armenian who has assimilated and doesn't know or care to know the first thing about our culture.

[Virgil]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

Honestly guys, I don't know why you guys go after the Armenians who wanted to change. If they married an otar and didn't want anything to do with the Armenian culture then it's done. As hard you try you can never change an Armenian. Our genes make us ignorant and always want things our way. When I say you can never change an Armenian I mean you can't have it your way with them they'll always do what they want to do.

Pazooki, originally, I never posted this article to push forward a agenda, furthermore, the only people that really took this personally and were VERY defensive are members with a agenda. If you scroll up, I never posted a opinion on the article.

Personally, I think the reaction by Mos and Armanen was very normal, it would be the same response if roles were reversed, if we were non-Armenians on a non-Armenian forum. The unnatural response was the sort of justification postulated by some members and I can assure everyone that if indeed the animal in question was a Armenian instead of a Non-Armenian, the article would be the talk of the town.

With regards to the debate about "quality over quantity", I agree with Armanen. Let us just say that if you have two cups of water. Call the pure one A and the impure one B. If you were to mix them, you make a solution, call it C. Clearly, C is not pure, now, it can be said that C is "more pure" than B, but C is not pure.

Well, take this experiment and extend to the infinite power, say you have n impure cups with different impurities. Take all n cups and mix it into A, clearly, you would not only have a new solution that is not pure, but you have indefinitely destroyed what ever purity that was in A.

First of all, this kind of degenerate action, having a baby out of wedlock is not a Armenian social norm. In fact, I can say that for many ethnic and racial groups it is looked down upon. Instead, I can see that the Armenians are absorbing the corporate culture of the United States and adopting these degenerate values as there own due to the relax climate that is being developed within our communities. Meaning, this is wholly a action that stems form the decay of morality in the United States in general and by accepting these type of degenerates, you are, essentially, accepting degeneration into your culture.

[Pazooki]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenian Girl and Mom

Honestly guys, I don't know why you guys go after the Armenians who wanted to change. If they married an otar and didn't want anything to do with the Armenian culture then it's done. As hard you try you can never change an Armenian. Our genes make us ignorant and always want things our way. When I say you can never change an Armenian I mean you can't have it your way with them they'll always do what they want to do.

[Siggie]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenain Girl and Mom

Well said Jeff...
If that had been the attitude that had been shown to me, I wouldn't be motivated to educate myself more. Thankfully, I have received only support, encouragement, and praise.

[jgk3]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenain Girl and Mom

Quality over quantity.

The quality lies in one's personal awakening towards their culture, the quantity is just the mass of people who can potentially awaken in this way. They are not the same category, but there is a relationship between them.

We are not in the position to know exactly how and when an Armenian will awaken in this way, and we can do our best to stimulate their interest if they haven't. Taking a hardliner attitude about the whole thing will likely only attract types who are seeking to please and be accepted by those they esteem to be superiors. Is that the "quality" we are seeking?

[Armanen]

Re: Las Vegas Shooting of Armenain Girl and Mom

Quality over quantity.