Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

Translation: "we will cut down every last one of them".

YEREVAN MAYOR PROMISES NOT TO CUT TREES

news.am
May 25, 2012 | 17:37

YEREVAN. - Yerevan Mayor Taron Margaryan promised the residents of
Yerevan's Noragavit district not to cut trees for constructing a
football stadium.

The Mayor and President of Armenia's Football Federation Ruben
Hayrapetyan visited Noragavit on Friday and advised the owners of 28
gardens that they should prepare the necessary papers to privatize
the gardens, Ecolur reports.

As Armenian News-NEWS.am reported earlier, Yerevan's city hall intends
to cut 15 thousand fruit trees in Yerevan's Noragavit area in order
to construct a football stadium.

[UrMistake]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

thanks for the news Bell , i love that market , my mother will visit Yerevan in 2 days she will take some pics :/ ,they should keep the old fashion market it would attract more tourists , no need for big ass super markets , not at this place at least .... look at some open markets in Germany or Poland ,thats what is good for tourism,

I cant believe why they have 24/24 hours super markets in Yerevan like in the US ..... i don't like that even if it make's more jobs!
First thing is to ensure law then all this my opinion ,working rights atc.

[Armanen]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

How does any of that change everything I said about the Armenian economy and its shortcomings. If the economy cannot adopt in 20 years to the new reality what reason is there to believe that it will adapt in 30 or 40 years? Armenia is in a position to become the exporting hub of the Caucasus, but is wasting its potential and resources on corruption and building retarded hotels. This has nothing to do with the government or politics but everything with the private sector. What are the reasons that Armenians businessmen haven't taken upon themselves to conquer the Iranian market or the Georgian market? Armenia right now has access to the European market through Georgia, the Russian market and also the whole of the Middle-East and Central Asia. In every of those regions you have a substantial Armenian diaspora. Even with these advantages many Armenian businessmen are more than willing to import and get rich on the backs of their own people and at the same time export wealth outside of Armenia.
What are the reasons that Dodi Gago and his ilk are not building factories to produce goods for export? Right now Iran is isolated from most of the world and if the Armenians were smart they would be producing high quality goods and export it to Iran. Instead of doing that they are building hotels, super markets and churches. Because one cannot have enough of those!

A country's economy is tied with the geography of that country, which includes its size, resources, and whether it is near a large body of water, landlocked, and/or has well connected rivers for easy navigation. To get past not having natural resources a country can specialize in some service or as is less often the case, products. I agree that Armenia ought to move in that direction and it has. Armenia is recognized as the financial, IT, and health hub of the S. Caucasus. But much more can be done. Armenian businessmen have bought up lots of land in Georgia and invested in firms there. So they are taking over that market. Iran is tougher because they have restrictions on non Iranian citizens owning large firms. To build a factory you first need the capital. The oligarchs have that. Next they need a product to produce. Prey tell, what products that Armenia does not already make, should Dodi Gago or another oligarch produce?

You are confusing two major things, what you are describing there are legal monopolies/oligopolies, it is not the same in Armenia. In Armenia you have some people who have unofficial monopolies/oligopolies. And they are kept in existence by the use of illegal means. If the Armenian government would stand up and say that those people legally have a monopoly for example on the export of cooking oil or sugar then there wouldn't be a problem. But once illegal means, like threats, beatings, arson etc. enter the economical life then you have a very different problem and one that can destroy the country.
Let's take the example of Korea that you have described, so let's say you move there and open a ship building company. Will one of the two companies send someone to beat you up so that you will close your business? No, they will try to compete you out of the market by the use of their expertise and experience.
Now let's say you open an importing business, and you want to import sugar in Armenia. Now what do you think that will happen, will they try to compete you out of the market or remove you with illegal means?
State sponsored monopolies/oligopolies are ofcourse bad however unofficial ones that are kept in existence by illegal means is ten times worse. And don't get me started on tax evasion and other things that need to be improved in Armenia.

Just because the law says something is ok does not make it so. We have two systems, one that allows a monopoly another that does not. Both are unhealthy. However, it seems you may be one of those people that will accept something if it is legal, even if that law is a terrible one. I do not know who you have been speaking with, but no one gets beat for opening up a business in Armenia that is already monopolized. What happens is the monopoly drives you out of business by lowering their costs, and/or having the tax people pay you a visit every so often. They use government red tape instead of violence.

Like I said before Armenia has the potential to be great but the potential is being wasted and after 20 years we are starting to run out of excuses and it is time to start looking where the real problems are. One of the biggest problems is corruption in Armenia, I know that there is corruption everywhere else in the world. However in Armenia corruption is a normal part of life and the only reason why most people in Armenia complain is because they are on the wrong end of the corruption chain.

Your last sentence proves my earlier point. The deeper issue of why Armenia has not risen higher is cultural and social. It runs much deeper than imposing Western standards upon the elites and masses. I see the catharsis occurring in an evolutionary way, which is the natural and healthy process. However, we have malcontents, traitors, idealists, and others, who wish to bring up a revolutionary change, and that to me is a serious no no! Political revolutions make the situation worse than before.

Yes you are right let's close our eyes and act like there is nothing wrong in Armenia and that there are no fundamental problems in Armenia that need to be solved before Armenia can grow. Armenia today is a state build around corruption and crime while in 1918 it was a state built around an ideology and a dream. We can stick our heads in the sand and go lalalalala.... and point to other countries and yell 'look how bad it is there' or we can stop doing that and try to make our country a place where every Armenian would love to live.
The West has many great aspects that Armenia needs to adopt and learn from. Armenia in the past has always been a nation that adopted great ideas, like when Hellenisation came to the Middle-East, Armenia embraced it and adopted the good parts while at the same time rejecting the bad parts. Why can't Armenia today do the same thing? Adopting the best from the West and the East and putting an Armenian flavour on top of it. And most of my insights comes from talks with auditors working in Armenia. It seems to be a crime for some people to criticize what is going on in Armenia today and say something bad about Armenia.

Visit Armenia for yourself, stop reading Western funded propaganda outlets, stop listening to your angry relatives and accountant friends that haven't a clue about Armenian history, culture, geopolitics, sociology, political philosophy, etc. Then perhaps you can come up with a more sober and mature understanding of the Armenian situation, devoid of emotional cliches and other rubbish.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

To build a factory you first need the capital. The oligarchs have that. Next they need a product to produce. Prey tell, what products that Armenia does not already make, should Dodi Gago or another oligarch produce?
.... However, we have malcontents, traitors, idealists, and others, who wish to bring up a revolutionary change, and that to me is a serious no no! Political revolutions make the situation worse than before.

The situation is this: as long as Armenia tolerates scum like Dodi Gago, and scum like the self-seeking neo-fascistic clergy, and has scum like Armanen and the gang of self-elected "Superior Armenians" to support them, Armenia is heading towards oblivion.

[Armanen]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

The situation is this: as long as Armenia tolerates scum like Dodi Gago, and scum like the self-seeking neo-fascistic clergy, and has scum like Armanen and the gang of self-elected "Superior Armenians" to support them, Armenia is heading towards oblivion.

Worry about Scotland. High crime, drug abuse, low education standards, control by another people (The English). Though there is some light at the end of the tunnel, if you all vote for independence. You will still be a worthless excuse for a human, not just Scotsman, but hey, can't have it all.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

thanks for the news Bell , i love that market , my mother will visit Yerevan in 2 days she will take some pics :/ ,they should keep the old fashion market it would attract more tourists , no need for big ass super markets , not at this place at least .... look at some open markets in Germany or Poland ,thats what is good for tourism,

I cant believe why they have 24/24 hours super markets in Yerevan like in the US ..... i don't like that even if it make's more jobs!
First thing is to ensure law then all this my opinion ,working rights atc.

Thanks. If you can get new photos and post them here, that would be good!
Big supermarkets are secretive monopolies - small traders and market sellers can source their own supplies. I suppose that's why the oligarchs like the former and try to close down the latter.

[Armanen]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/greece-european-robert-d-kaplan?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20120606&utm_term=kaplan&utm_content=readmore&elq=5111071ab66645fca4548e0a2bc7807c

Roughly three-quarters of Greek businesses are family-owned and rely on family labor, making meritocratic promotion difficult for those outside the family. Tax cheating is rampant. The economy suffers from a profound lack of competitiveness, even as Greece is mainly a service economy, relying on tourism, in which manufacturing constitutes a weak sector. Of course, these features have much to do with bad policies enacted over the years and decades, but they are also products of history and culture, which are, in turn, products of geography. Indeed, Greece lacks enough productive land to be an agricultural power.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/gre...548e0a2bc7807c

Roughly three-quarters of Greek businesses are family-owned and rely on family labor, making meritocratic promotion difficult for those outside the family. Tax cheating is rampant. The economy suffers from a profound lack of competitiveness, even as Greece is mainly a service economy, relying on tourism, in which manufacturing constitutes a weak sector. Of course, these features have much to do with bad policies enacted over the years and decades, but they are also products of history and culture, which are, in turn, products of geography. Indeed, Greece lacks enough productive land to be an agricultural power.

And we can see in what kind of shape the Greek economy today is can't we. The only thing keeping Greece functioning is the EU. And Armenia doesn't have the EU to keep it running and Russia doesn't have the economical power or the willingness to do it either.

A country's economy is tied with the geography of that country, which includes its size, resources, and whether it is near a large body of water, landlocked, and/or has well connected rivers for easy navigation. To get past not having natural resources a country can specialize in some service or as is less often the case, products. I agree that Armenia ought to move in that direction and it has. Armenia is recognized as the financial, IT, and health hub of the S. Caucasus. But much more can be done. Armenian businessmen have bought up lots of land in Georgia and invested in firms there. So they are taking over that market. Iran is tougher because they have restrictions on non Iranian citizens owning large firms. To build a factory you first need the capital. The oligarchs have that. Next they need a product to produce. Prey tell, what products that Armenia does not already make, should Dodi Gago or another oligarch produce?

And in this modern day and age geography can be overcome. Armenia today has two ready markets that can be exploited because of their distance of Europe. Like I said in previous post Armenian businessmen don't try to use their advantages and only care about easy and fast profit.
Right now Armenia isn't any of these things but it can become really fast as long as the government and the oligarchs keep their nose out of the IT and financial industry then Armenia has such a huge potential that most people can't even imagine. We have the rich oil sheiks that will need a stable banking area and add to that the Iranians who are not welcome anywhere else in the world any more.
You see those little things being done and you think it is enough? If Armenian businessmen don't go into a second gear they will lose everything they have now because of an implosion of the Armenian economy.
In Iran, how many Armenians live there? So the tougher restrictions don't really matter when you can get a cooperation with the local Armenians and set up businesses like that. And Iran needs to be taken over from an exporting point of view, because it is a huge market that is being cut of from most of the world and things are going to get much worse before they get better. So it is the perfect opportunity to move in and control a huge portion of the market.
What can Armenia produce? I don't know how about weapons? Let's start producing those and exporting it to everyone that needs weapons. Why don't we have many companies that are doing that? How about car parts? How bout clothes? How many percent of the clothes that is being imported to Armenia comes from Turkey? So instead of aiding our economy and creating job opportunities we are aiding a hostile country.
Have you seen the latest hotel that is being built in Armenia? It's a five star hotel. Is there such an high demand for hotels in Armenia, especially luxery ones that they need to build at least five a year.

Just because the law says something is ok does not make it so. We have two systems, one that allows a monopoly another that does not. Both are unhealthy. However, it seems you may be one of those people that will accept something if it is legal, even if that law is a terrible one. I do not know who you have been speaking with, but no one gets beat for opening up a business in Armenia that is already monopolized. What happens is the monopoly drives you out of business by lowering their costs, and/or having the tax people pay you a visit every so often. They use government red tape instead of violence.

Are you really comparing a legal monopoly to an illegal one? Because one is part of the economy, although in my opinion all monopolies are bad, to something that is not even par of the economy and is 100% illegal. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it it one of them is against the law and the other one isn't.
Go and try to import sugar to Armenia and see what samvel and his boys will do to you and your business. And are we talking about the same country where an MP candidate got beaten so many times he dropped out of the race. So now are you really telling me beatings don't happen? Yeah, and also Vartanig didn't burn down a couple of businesses whose owners didn't want to sell him their business. That also didn't happen.

Your last sentence proves my earlier point. The deeper issue of why Armenia has not risen higher is cultural and social. It runs much deeper than imposing Western standards upon the elites and masses. I see the catharsis occurring in an evolutionary way, which is the natural and healthy process. However, we have malcontents, traitors, idealists, and others, who wish to bring up a revolutionary change, and that to me is a serious no no! Political revolutions make the situation worse than before.

If Armenia doesn't change then it will destroy itself. Armenia will not be taken by any foreign power but will destroy itself because we have people like Dodi Gago running the show and others who are more than willing to put their head in the sand and go lalalala, like nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change. But I refuse to do that.
And imposing Western Standards is a very good place to start to change things.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/gre...548e0a2bc7807c

Roughly three-quarters of Greek businesses are family-owned and rely on family labor, making meritocratic promotion difficult for those outside the family. Tax cheating is rampant. The economy suffers from a profound lack of competitiveness, even as Greece is mainly a service economy, relying on tourism, in which manufacturing constitutes a weak sector. Of course, these features have much to do with bad policies enacted over the years and decades, but they are also products of history and culture, which are, in turn, products of geography. Indeed, Greece lacks enough productive land to be an agricultural power.

Greeks don't need a government to take care of them, they govern and employ themselves. The only Greeks that depend on government are the ones working directly for the government. The reason the Greek government fails is because it will never collect the revenue needed to allow it to spend like a drunken sailor. When there is an economic crisis in Greece, the citizens don't go homeless in mass like Americans. When the Greeks are upset with the decisions their government makes, they take to the streets. They don't fear government because they have power.... Greek is a real democracy but the corrupt government officials and bankers want to make it like America where all the power is in the hands of a few.

[Armanen]

Re: Yerevan's famous covered market demolished

And we can see in what kind of shape the Greek economy today is can't we. The only thing keeping Greece functioning is the EU. And Armenia doesn't have the EU to keep it running and Russia doesn't have the economical power or the willingness to do it either.

The reason why the Greeks are suffering now is due to the EU, a failed project that globalists in Brussels imposed on naive Europeans during booming years. Now that culture, geography, and other forces have caught up with them, they are on the downside and may never recover. The EU and IMF's austerity measures are making things much worse for Greece than if the Greeks told them to piss off and went back to the drachma. As for Armenia, it's economy is in better shape than that of Greece. Add to it the fact that Armenia is still at war, landlocked, has few resources, blockaded from the west, we should marvel that its economy is not in the dumps. You speak of things you do not know about. You have not been in Armenia since you left, you have not seen the changes for the better.

And in this modern day and age geography can be overcome. Armenia today has two ready markets that can be exploited because of their distance of Europe. Like I said in previous post Armenian businessmen don't try to use their advantages and only care about easy and fast profit.
Right now Armenia isn't any of these things but it can become really fast as long as the government and the oligarchs keep their nose out of the IT and financial industry then Armenia has such a huge potential that most people can't even imagine. We have the rich oil sheiks that will need a stable banking area and add to that the Iranians who are not welcome anywhere else in the world any more.
You see those little things being done and you think it is enough? If Armenian businessmen don't go into a second gear they will lose everything they have now because of an implosion of the Armenian economy.
In Iran, how many Armenians live there? So the tougher restrictions don't really matter when you can get a cooperation with the local Armenians and set up businesses like that. And Iran needs to be taken over from an exporting point of view, because it is a huge market that is being cut of from most of the world and things are going to get much worse before they get better. So it is the perfect opportunity to move in and control a huge portion of the market.
What can Armenia produce? I don't know how about weapons? Let's start producing those and exporting it to everyone that needs weapons. Why don't we have many companies that are doing that? How about car parts? How bout clothes? How many percent of the clothes that is being imported to Armenia comes from Turkey? So instead of aiding our economy and creating job opportunities we are aiding a hostile country.
Have you seen the latest hotel that is being built in Armenia? It's a five star hotel. Is there such an high demand for hotels in Armenia, especially luxery ones that they need to build at least five a year.

The oil sheikhs has you call them already have many safe harbors for their cash, the Cayman's, Seychelles, Switzerland, etc. What makes you think they would open a savings account in Armenia? Importing to Iran is fine but the products do not sell well due to the imposition of high tariffs on foreign goods by the Iranian government. Any investor would need to open up shop in Iran. And with the sanctions that the EU and US have on Iran, many things are off limit, unless the company is ok with losing the opportunity to work in EU and US. All the things you listed save for weapons were silly suggestions, and clearly showed that you have not thought through what you are saying. It is easy to complain though. Armenia is already producing some weaponry for the domestic market, thanks in part to cooperation with Russian defense firms. And several months ago Armenian MoD officials hinted at the possibility of exporting Armenian weaponry, such as our UAVs. But because armaments are of such a strategic nature, the government needs to be involved in the process and have a list of what weapons are ok to sell and to which countries. As for making clothing, do you want the oligarchs to set up sweat shops in Armenia and pay less than $1 a day. That is the only way they could seriously compete with the Chinese. Even the Turks can't compete with the Chinese, and most of the clothing brought over from Turkey to Armenia is made in China.
Car parts again, who would our market be? I agree we need more heavy industry in Armenia but we need to have markets. The best chance for Armenia to grow its economy is in the services and other non tangible goods sectors.
Which hotel are you referring to? If they built it then they must see a demand for it. Regardless the construction of the hotel gives people jobs both during and after. I don't see the issue with it.

Are you really comparing a legal monopoly to an illegal one? Because one is part of the economy, although in my opinion all monopolies are bad, to something that is not even par of the economy and is 100% illegal. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it it one of them is against the law and the other one isn't.
Go and try to import sugar to Armenia and see what samvel and his boys will do to you and your business. And are we talking about the same country where an MP candidate got beaten so many times he dropped out of the race. So now are you really telling me beatings don't happen? Yeah, and also Vartanig didn't burn down a couple of businesses whose owners didn't want to sell him their business. That also didn't happen.

One is sanctioned by the government the other is not, both are detrimental to the economy in the long run. That is what I am saying.
Cherry picking data isn't going to work. The issues one will encounter if he tries to get into a business already dominated by an oligarch are legal red tape that customs, in this case, will bring. I have relatives who are in this business in Armenia and based on what they have told me, the issues are with the government. But of course the government is sent over to harass because of well connected oligarchs. No one gets beat though, has it happened, of course, is it a regular occurrence, no!

If Armenia doesn't change then it will destroy itself. Armenia will not be taken by any foreign power but will destroy itself because we have people like Dodi Gago running the show and others who are more than willing to put their head in the sand and go lalalala, like nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change. But I refuse to do that.
And imposing Western Standards is a very good place to start to change things.

Someone proclaiming doom and gloom without serious justification, a pessimist we can call him, is just as bad as a person with their head in the sand. So far I have been agreeing with you that things do need to change. But whereas I see progress, however slow it may be, you can only harp on the negative and have closed your eyes to the positives. So once again I will ask you to stop listening to bs media outlets, to disgruntled relatives back in Armenia, and to random colleagues who don't know Armenia other than working there for a while, and visit the country for yourself. I think you will see that there is much work to be done but that things are improving.