Kocharian: a criminal?

[Anonymouse]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

And, things like this (http://www.privatization.am/old/nsp/nsp10.html) are terribly scary when the items being sold are utilities and railways and the like.

http://www.armeniaforeignministry.com/doc/id/bstdb.html

http://www.parliament.am/legislation.php?sel=show&ID=1645&lang=eng

http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2007/12...enian-railway/ (under the privitization plan immediately above, this was not supposed to happen)

I just caught this.

What's your hang up with privatization? It seems all the socialistic types complain about privatizing, like it's some evil boogeyman because it does not neatly fit into the perfect utopian mold of state run economies. Privatization is where capital comes from and grows. That is how wealth is created, and investments occur. State-run top down socialistic enterprises are what stunt development back. This is the best way for the allocation of resources from private capital, because we all know that the state tends to mismanage and misallocate resources.

The more investment, the more privatization and the less the state holds on to these things, the more efficient and effective Armenia's economy will develop. I know everyone has a privatization 'sob story' but that is a confusing cause and effect.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

I just caught this.

What's your hang up with privatization? It seems all the socialistic types complain about privatizing, like it's some evil boogeyman because it does not neatly fit into the perfect utopian mold of state run economies. Privatization is where capital comes from and grows. That is how wealth is created, and investments occur. State-run top down socialistic enterprises are what stunt development back. This is the best way for the allocation of resources from private capital, because we all know that the state tends to mismanage and misallocate resources.

The more investment, the more privatization and the less the state holds on to these things, the more efficient and effective Armenia's economy will develop. I know everyone has a privatization 'sob story' but that is a confusing cause and effect.

Did the proceeds go in RA's coffers?

Did Kocharian or other RA leaders gain directly or indirectly from any of the sales of previously state owned enterprises?

You sold the railways back to Moscow to whom the RA was merely a far off republic within the union. Before, all trains stopped in Georgia. Now, they can be stopped in Yerevan.

Not only did the state on behalf of the people not profit in some of these ventures in an intangible sense like control over mass transit but there may have been tangible losses.

Especially, if RA leaders lined their pockets with monies from the sale of RA infrastructure that were to be reserved for the public's benefit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7153794.stm

[Anonymouse]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Armenia is no America and for a country of that magnitude to have undergone what it has and come out and is in the process of trying to transform itself, I'd still say any privatization is better than no privatization.

As far as that BBC article is concerned, that is the regular complaint of Russian influence over Armenia. But so what?

This again does not take into account that tiny nations like Armenia have always been influenced by larger nations. And while there are no permanent friends in the world of geopolitics and only temporary allies, I'd say for the foreseeable future Russia would be a 'permanent ally' and their investment means Armenia at least has some sort of ally that is a major power, surrounded by a bunch of hostile bloodlusting Turks.

If one does not have the resources to tap into certain mines let's say hypothetically, or the capital to invest in new infrastructures or input, why not bring in foreign investments which has revived Armenia's economy in the past 10 years? Such is the nature of capitalism, you can either join it and develop, or you can end up like banana republics and other failed states. This reminds me of the recent bid by InBev, a Belgian company to buy Budweiser, the "American beer" company and all the uproar that ensued from this deal by Americans.

Business is business. That is the way it goes.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Has Kocharian ever disclosed his tax returns or business dealings during his presidency? Did he obtain stock in corporations who bought state enterprises/assets?

Certainly, you are not saying that privately owned railways for mass and commercial transit and privately owned utilities are beneficial to a small country's national security and economic stability. Especially, one whose public, a good portion of it, atleast, still battles poverty. http://www.aiprg.net/UserFiles/File/...005--05-06.ppt

Budweiser is a publicly traded corporation. Its not a state enterprise.

When government officials sell state assets and profit for themselves at the expense of the public's benefit, it is not 'business is business'.

Communist leaders who go capitalist in a democratic nation at the expense of the citizenry are not doing business, they are engaging in political corruption.

Does anyone even know how much Robert earned while the RA President, what his business dealings were, etc.

Did Robert own any businesses before becoming president of NKR?

Superficially, it looks like Soviet communists commandered Democratic Armenia to control the political apparatus for personal gain.

At least it appeared to be democratic.

And, although privatization was initiated by LTP, he was abruptly pushed out by military, pro-Karabagh hardliners who captured control and saw the sale of state assets through even the railways.

Kind of hard to say that LTP sold away the country for his own personal gain. Resources were mighty scarce during LTP's time, blockades on both sides, no real trade, a war for NKR, earthquake, food lines.

It was still Soviet Russia, the Republic had not even awakened yet from its Red slumber.

So, I don't think it is fair to attribute all of the problems of the early era of the 2nd Republic to LTP.

And, if you want to break this down to thuggery, ok, fine.

The LTP thugs and the Robert thugs fought for the corner from which to slang and Robert's thugs got the corner. The problem is those thugs, all of them, were public servants. Regardless of who did what, if any of these public servants benefitted financially from the misuse of power, they are chargeable for a crime.

Sure seems like Serge and his administration are doing the reform dance.

[aray]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Anon,
My position is simple: Levon chased me out of country, Robert attracted me back.

I agree that none of them are saints, including the once on the west, however one should do an assessment to decide who deserves what. Let’s see, Levon and his gang kept the country terrorized under police regime, in poverty, hunger, dark and cold. They did everything they could to keep people as weak, helpless and demoralized as they could, so that the ‘robbing the country machine’ was safely rolling. People were get shot in daylight and everybody knew who was behind and what for. There is no way in the world that somebody can argue this, I was there, I was well connected, I have seen and heard it all on the ground.

After 10 years of silence, LTP all of the sudden woke up and decided that he wants to run for president. Now, can somebody answer following questions: How is this happened? How he was able to get supporters (according to his stooges, whit in couple of months election campaign, LTP had majority of population following him; what a joke)? What makes him an opposition? Shouldn’t opposition have program of some sort clearly stating what are they ‘opposing’ (ie abortion – no abortion, pump oil – no pump oil, gay marriage – no gay marriage)? Who is sponsoring LTP? Do supporters of LTP know what he will do different other than replacing current key figures in government with his hungry dogs (I don’t see how any so called ‘clan’ will be brought down, since there isn’t single one that I can think of that Kocharyan crated)? Speaking of that, can somebody name the ‘clan’ that wasn’t formed during LTP presidency? Can somebody estimate how many years Armenia got pushed back after March 1st events that LTP successfully organized. Can somebody guarantee that LTP will not trade liberated territories with aliev JR in same fashion that he was about to deal with aliev Sr. Please tell me how Armenian Republic is benefits from somebody like LTP.

Now, back to hanging issue. In my life I only harm an azeriturks and the mosquitoes. But, have I had opportunity to get my hand to LTP, I would have no hesitation to squish bastards head. He is a danger to existence of the country. We already have seen what he capable of doing on March 1st. His camp is just keeps growing by corrupted elements that are joining as a result of Serj’s crack down on corruption. What’s happening now is people in police, taxing authorities, customs services and some businessmen having a hard time to adjust to new rules (no bribes, no hiding taxes, no reductions on customs fees, no harassing of low and mid ranked law enforcement officers ….) This people are joining Levon by default. Knowing this, Levon just keeps his so called ‘opposition movement’ a life and waiting for the right time to strike again. Last thing in the world Armenia needs today is revolution. I am all for healthy opposition, but this guy is not opposition. I don’t hear any message saying, if it was us, we will handle it like this, or will do things differently. All I hear is: illegal government should step down and we should replace them.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Has Kocharian ever disclosed his tax returns or business dealings during his presidency? Did he obtain stock in corporations who bought state enterprises/assets?

Unhallowed faith and belief that state officials (be it Kocharian or LTP) will be honest. -1

Certainly, you are not saying that privately owned railways for mass and commercial transit and privately owned utilities are beneficial to a small country's national security and economic stability. Especially, one whose public, a good portion of it, atleast, still battles poverty. http://www.aiprg.net/UserFiles/File/...005--05-06.ppt

Unhallowed faith and belief that one can eliminate poverty like in a socialistic wet dream. -1

Budweiser is a publicly traded corporation. Its not a state enterprise.

Red herring. -1

When government officials sell state assets and profit for themselves at the expense of the public's benefit, it is not 'business is business'.

Unhallowed faith that 'public officials' or 'public servants' are really 'servants.' Point to any country where that is the case. -1

Communist leaders who go capitalist in a democratic nation at the expense of the citizenry are not doing business, they are engaging in political corruption.

Unhallowed faith and belief that you can make states into moral saints that serve the public and do not engage in corruption at the expense of the citizenry (you just described nation-states in one fell swoop). -1

Does anyone even know how much Robert earned while the RA President, what his business dealings were, etc.

Unhallowed faith and belief that state officials (in any government) will be honest about such disclosures. -1.

Superficially, it looks like Soviet communists commandered Democratic Armenia to control the political apparatus for personal gain.

Unhallowed faith and belief that politicians will not act for personal gain. -1 And while we're on it, all you are doing is reaffirming the definition of a State.

At least it appeared to be democratic.

And, although privatization was initiated by LTP, he was abruptly pushed out by military, pro-Karabagh hardliners who captured control and saw the sale of state assets through even the railways.

Kind of hard to say that LTP sold away the country for his own personal gain. Resources were mighty scarce during LTP's time, blockades on both sides, no real trade, a war for NKR, earthquake, food lines.

It was still Soviet Russia, the Republic had not even awakened yet from its Red slumber.

So, I don't think it is fair to attribute all of the problems of the early era of the 2nd Republic to LTP.

This is where you let your party allegiance allow you to ignore the hypocrisy with which Levon is tainted with, to overcome the cognitive dissonance about the reality of all politicians, including Levon.

And, if you want to break this down to thuggery, ok, fine.

The LTP thugs and the Robert thugs fought for the corner from which to slang and Robert's thugs got the corner. The problem is those thugs, all of them, were public servants. Regardless of who did what, if any of these public servants benefitted financially from the misuse of power, they are chargeable for a crime.

Sure seems like Serge and his administration are doing the reform dance.

Honesty at last.

I have no particular care for Levon or Robert or Serjik. I see them all for what they are, masters of the art of subterfuge, deceit, thuggery, treachery, corruption, power and thieves, like all politicians. I'm playing devil's advocate here. My problem is with hypocrisy.

P.S. I find it funny that you refer to these people as 'public servants' when we both know they do not serve anyone but themselves, much less the fictional holistic entity known as 'the public.'

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Special elections foreseen to clean the stain. http://www.armtown.com/news/en/a1p/20080610/61451/

No rule of law, no country; if RA won't uphold, citizens must go elsewhere for justice; Demirchian's point is valid.

http://www.a1plus.am/en/?page=issue&iid=62673

http://www.azg.am/EN/2008071602

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then you win; Robert laughs. http://armenianow.com/?action=viewAr...g=eng&IID=1195

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Demirchian identifies special elections as only means to clear taint from RA's current political stable.

STEPAN DEMIRCHIAN CONSIDERS THAT ONLY WAY OUT OF GRAVE HOME POLITICAL SITUATION IS SPECIAL ELECTIONS

NOYAN TAPAN

http://www.nt.am/news.php?shownews=115629

JULY 15

Stepan Demirchian, the Chairman of the People's Party of Armenia, a
participant of the People's Movement, at the July 15 press conference
expressed the hope that Thomas Hammarberg, the Commissioner for Human
Rights of the Council of Europe, will present an unbiassed report on
Armenia to the PACE Monitoring Commission in September.

The Commissioner, according to Stepan Demirchian, in particular,
cannot but admit that those imprisoned by the March 1 case are
prosecuted for their political views.

The PPA leader stated that opposition's readiness to start a dialogue
with the authorities after releasing the political prisoners is valid.

As S. Demirchian evaluated, it will be possible to improve the grave
political and moral-psychological situation formed in the country
as a result of the March 1 tragic events only through special state
elections.

Holding of fair, transparent elections, according to him, is the only
guarantee of establishment of stability in Armenia.

The PPA leader reaffirmed the statement made by first RA President
Levon Ter-Petrosian at the July 4 rally, according to which, in case
those in detention are not released at the end of the sit-down strike,
on August 1, the opposition will demand the resignation of President
Serzh Sargsyan. S.

Demirchian said that in any case the oppositionists will act only
within the law. "And if the authorities think that the people will get
tired and stop the struggle after some time, it is not so," he said.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky

Has Kocharian ever disclosed his tax returns or business dealings during his presidency? Did he obtain stock in corporations who bought state enterprises/assets?

AM: Unhallowed faith and belief that state officials (be it Kocharian or LTP) will be honest. -1

>>> Regardless of whether or not polticians are honest, usually in
democratic governments, they are required to disclose their tax
returns and business dealings. As a citizen of a democratic country,
you are entitled to expect such disclosures from your leaders. Its
called transparency. If they aren't disclosing such information, you
may suspect that they are engaged in conflicts of interest - e.g.
using their political power for personal gain including profitting and
underreporting their taxes.

http://www.a1plus.am/en/page=issue&iid=62256

(headline reads "KOCHARIAN’S CAPITAL EXCEEDS RoA BUDGET")

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
Certainly, you are not saying that privately owned railways for mass and commercial transit and privately owned utilities are beneficial to a small country's national security and economic stability. Especially, one whose public, a good portion of it, atleast, still battles poverty. http://www.aiprg.net/UserFiles/File/...005--05-06.ppt

Unhallowed faith and belief that one can eliminate poverty like in a socialistic wet dream. -1

>>> AM, do you know how to read? Inflation increases, food prices
increase and the RA's rail transit is not owned by the RA. You
don't see how that can effect economic stability and infringe on
National Security?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
Budweiser is a publicly traded corporation. Its not a state enterprise.

AM: Red herring. -1

>>> Yeah, you are the stinky fish that tried to take the readers in this
thread off the path referring to the sale of Budweiser as a positive
example of privitization. Please inform us when Budweiser was ever
owned by the U.S. government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
When government officials sell state assets and profit for themselves at the expense of the public's benefit, it is not 'business is business'.

AM: Unhallowed faith that 'public officials' or 'public servants' are really 'servants.' Point to any country where that is the case. -1

>>> when a country holds its self out as a constitutional democracy,
its citizenry can expect that its leaders shall act as constitutional
officers and uphold the constitution and the laws for the public's
benefits. Whether or not public servants actually act like such
(e.g. engaging in self-dealing) does not mean that they are not
engaged in public service. That's why when a public servant
breaches their obligation to the state (the people) for
their own personal gain, they must be charged and tried for
corruption to punish the wrongful conduct and deter like conduct
by other public officials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
Communist leaders who go capitalist in a democratic nation at the expense of the citizenry are not doing business, they are engaging in political corruption.

AM: Unhallowed faith and belief that you can make states into moral saints that serve the public and do not engage in corruption at the expense of the citizenry (you just described nation-states in one fell swoop). -1

>>> Are you kidding me? Corruption is corruption and is chargeable as
corruption whether or not the authorities act on it. And, if the
people don't demand that such charges be pursued, eventually
there will be no country to govern. The opposite of order is
anarchy. Revolution is an acceptable method of petitioning the
government when the government no longer represents
the state or the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
Does anyone even know how much Robert earned while the RA President, what his business dealings were, etc.

AM: Unhallowed faith and belief that state officials (in any government) will be honest about such disclosures. -1.

>>> whether or not the disclosures will be truthful, does not make the
disclosure of the same by state officials futile. Untruthful
disclosures are chargeable as perjury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
Superficially, it looks like Soviet communists commandered Democratic Armenia to control the political apparatus for personal gain.

AM: Unhallowed faith and belief that politicians will not act for personal gain. -1 And while we're on it, all you are doing is reaffirming the definition of a State.

>>> whether or not politics act for personal gain does not lessen in any
way the fact that doing so is political corruption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
At least it appeared to be democratic.

And, although privatization was initiated by LTP, he was abruptly pushed out by military, pro-Karabagh hardliners who captured control and saw the sale of state assets through even the railways.

Kind of hard to say that LTP sold away the country for his own personal gain. Resources were mighty scarce during LTP's time, blockades on both sides, no real trade, a war for NKR, earthquake, food lines.

It was still Soviet Russia, the Republic had not even awakened yet from its Red slumber.

So, I don't think it is fair to attribute all of the problems of the early era of the 2nd Republic to LTP.

AM: This is where you let your party allegiance allow you to ignore the hypocrisy with which Levon is tainted with, to overcome the cognitive dissonance about the reality of all politicians, including Levon.

>>> I am not aligned to Levon or his party. One of the problems with
politics in the RA is the balkanization of political parties. Easier to
divide than unite when you have so many parties over which to
form coalitions and act non-partisan. The more friends you have
in politics today usually means you will have twice as
many enemies tomorrow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyfreaky
And, if you want to break this down to thuggery, ok, fine.

The LTP thugs and the Robert thugs fought for the corner from which to slang and Robert's thugs got the corner. The problem is those thugs, all of them, were public servants. Regardless of who did what, if any of these public servants benefitted financially from the misuse of power, they are chargeable for a crime.

Sure seems like Serge and his administration are doing the reform dance.

AM: Honesty at last.

I have no particular care for Levon or Robert or Serjik. I see them all for what they are, masters of the art of subterfuge, deceit, thuggery, treachery, corruption, power and thieves, like all politicians. I'm playing devil's advocate here. My problem is with hypocrisy.

P.S. I find it funny that you refer to these people as 'public servants' when we both know they do not serve anyone but themselves, much less the fictional holistic entity known as 'the public.'

>>>> Hey, we agree. No care for any of these individuals. They are
the tripartite of trouble. Hypocrits, all of them, indeed.

Flashback, Robert waxing poetically about the RA as a free, democratic and sovereign country. http://news.president.am/eng/?sub=st...om=0&year=1998

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Replay. Sargsyan waxes poetically about the accomplishments of his first 100 days. http://armenianow.com/?action=viewAr...g=eng&IID=1196

Armenian lawyers take up Shakespeare demand to "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"; not quite, concerned about poor public opinion in RA re: lawyers, judges and the judicial system. http://www.arka.am/eng/society/2008/07/23/10423.html

RA sets up tax inspection agency for the whales. http://www.arka.am/eng/economy/2008/07/25/10445.html

National Democrats unhappy with signature gathering campaign to have Kocharian tried in European criminal court. http://www.arka.am/eng/politics/2008/07/23/10405.html

PM Sargsyan opines that crackdown re: corruption must include the elite as first target and that culture of corruption must be rooted out in RA by way of education that it is an evil. http://www.arka.am/eng/economy/2008/07/23/10421.html