Armenia and the information war

[Armanen]

Re: Armenia and the information war

PM’s remarks worry Armenian migrants in Turkey

The Turkish prime minister’s recent suggestion that undocumented citizens of Armenia may have to be deported has raised fears among Armenian workers living in Turkey.

Many migrants send the money they earn in Turkey to their families in Armenia, supporting that country’s economy.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s comments to journalists in London on Tuesday came after a U.S. Congressional committee and the Swedish parliament accepted claims of “genocide” regarding the incidents of 1915. The prime minister claimed that there are 100,000 undocumented Armenians working in Turkey and that Ankara has so far tolerated them.

“So what will I do tomorrow? If necessary, I will tell them ‘come on, back to your country’... I’m not obliged to keep them in my country. Those actions [on genocide resolutions] unfortunately have a negative impact on our sincere attitudes,” Agence France-Presse quoted him as saying.

According to a study by the Eurasia Partnership Foundation, there are anywhere between 6,000 and 70,000 people from Armenia residing in Turkey. A journalist from the weekly Agos estimated the number of Armenians working in Turkey at between 12,000 and 14,000, based on Ministry of Labor statistics.

Speaking to daily Radikal, Karina, an Armenian citizen working in Istanbul’s Kumkapı district, said she is worried about the statement. Karina, who declined to give her surname, has been living with a tourist visa in Turkey for the past five years. “Deportation will be bad for me economically and socially,” she said.

Making a living

Others speaking to daily Radikal also said they had to work in Turkey to make a living.

Armen, who also refrained from giving his surname, said he has a life in Turkey and does not want to leave that behind. “Even if the police come to me with a knife in their hands, I will not leave here,” he said. “I am married. My children are with me and we are all right here.”

According to recent research, there are around 800 children who were born in Turkey to Armenian parents who live undocumented in the country. These children are in a legal limbo, citizens of neither nation.

“If I am deported, I will find a way to return to Turkey,” said Giyma Harutunyan, who has been living in Turkey for the past five years.

Yura Sarkisyan, 70, who is involved in the “shuttle trade,” told Radikal: “It is the politicians who make this thing complicated. There is no good in bringing up events that happened a long time ago. We do not want to leave. We are thankful to all the Turkish people.”

Some undocumented Armenians, however, said they would leave if they were no longer wanted in Turkey. A.N., 37, identified only by her initials, said she loved Turkey and has lived here for four years now, daily Hürriyet reported Thursday. “But if they want, we will leave. We are here because the chance to find a job in Armenia is small. This is our country’s fault,” said A.N., who works as a salesperson in Istanbul’s Aksaray district.

M.H., 43, also identified only by her initials, has worked as babysitter for four years in Turkey. She said plans to go back to Armenia within one or two years.

“People should not suffer due to politics. We have a life here,” she said.

The other side of the coin

T.Z., 28, identified only by her initials, told Hürriyet she was a student of Russian literature before she came to Turkey. “I work in a textile firm here,” she said. “My husband lives in Armenia. I want him to come here, too.”

T.Z. said the prime minister’s statements irked her. “Hundreds of thousands of Turks are working in Europe illegally,” she said. “Turkey should not forget that.”

Haygazun Alvrstyan, an academic from Yerevan State University, told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review on Thursday that Erdoğan’s statements are a disturbing reminder of history. “[They again want] Armenians to be deported. It is a shame that this statement is made by a prime minister,” he said.

The academic added that there are only about 10,000 Armenian citizens in Turkey, saying Erdoğan is exaggerating the figure in order to “coerce the European Union and the U.S. not to approve resolutions on genocide claims.”

Siranuys Dvyoan, a professor in Armenia, said undocumented workers are not just Armenia’s problem, noting that Turks work in various countries in a similar fashion. “Turkey is trying to display Armenia as a poor country in the world,” she said.

Tevan Poghosyan, from the Yerevan-based International Center of Human Development, said Erdoğan is trying to distract attention from the genocide issue.

Vercihan Ziflioğlu contributed to this report from Istanbul.

http://www.armenianow.com/news/21727/turkish_pm_remarks_on_armenian_migrants

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I agree with the fact that peoples struggles to make a living, but in my opinion some of the "comments" by these 'Armenians' residing in Turkey sound like not coming from an Armenian, or at least not one proud to be one or one making such under threat. Is an Armenian really disposed to forget what the Turks did to us so easily just because some more money? And furthermore, is Armenia the one to blame guilt on because of the lack of job opportunities, such a truth this is that they have to go and kiss the Turks hands because of that?

I know the report comes from a Turkish daily, which of course means it underwent heavy "editing" in the Turks campaign to make Armenia look like a miserable poor country, but I cannot help but think about a phrase I heard once...I think it was from Turkish-Armenian "The Armenians who live in Turkey are particularly 'Turkish'"....

I agree with your thoughts ashot. It is a shame if these people really did make some of those comments, like 'I love turkey' or 'we are greatful to the turkish people' etc. Though it wouldn't be the first time turkish press makes up or twists quotes to suit the turkish agenda.

What do you think the turkish Armenian meant by that phrase?

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia and the information war

^^^^ I don't believe they would say that Armanen and we know how easely Turkey twists everything around to their advantage. However I do fear that we might see some hate crimes against Armenians because of all this over there so maybe that would be a reason for an Armenian to say something like that.

[ashot24]

Re: Armenia and the information war

I agree with your thoughts ashot. It is a shame if these people really did make some of those comments, like 'I love turkey' or 'we are greatful to the turkish people' etc. Though it wouldn't be the first time turkish press makes up or twists quotes to suit the turkish agenda.

What do you think the turkish Armenian meant by that phrase?

It is a phrase one of my family's friends, who is Armenian born in Turkey but later resettled definitely in Armenia, told me once when I asked him something like "How do Armenians there feel about the Turks, about the Genocide, and about Armenia?"....and he told me that there are two cases to study on that question, one from the Armenians who were born Turks and the Armenians who came here as immigrants. He said that the majority of Armenians who were born Turks or settled in Turkey after the Genocide had to hide from being Armenians since having such identity in those years (20's and until late 80's or so), was asking for serious trouble and discrimination and it even was dangerous, so many took the IAN, YAN out of their last names or changed them for other more 'Turkish' sounding, they became even more 'patriots' than the real Turks, and were great parts of society...but nobody ever knew they were Armenians until, for example, they died and people discovered they were buried as Christians (the best example I can find is Onno Tunç). With time, that stopped being a method to survive and started to become a thing which made you question your identity, since many started to stop being afraid of be called Armenians and started to feel ashamed and refused to be called Armenians (the lies the Turks told about us had a great impact) and became real Turks or pretended to be, so you could tell the Armenian who lived in Turkey became even more Turkish than the real Turks, a pattern we see until our days. As for the Armenian migrants, they often have to hide themselves if they are illegal because of the fear their employers can fire them and say they are illegal, often come very disappointed from Armenia and after they find the same reality in Turkey they want to come back but can't, many factors...but the things is many live in fear as Eddo said, or live in resignation of their identity, of course many don't...but there are every kind of person. But that's what he meant by that phrase, Armenians in Turkey, by any reason it may be (I think fear is the more likely), become even more Turks than the real Turks in order to be able to live like a regular person.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenia and the information war

AZERBAIJAN: BAKU SAYS KARABAKH STATUS REFERENDUM MUST INCLUDE ALL OF AZERBAIJAN
3/18/10

Baku would accept a proposal to define the status of the breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh enclave through a referendum, but only if the poll is held on the entire territory of Azerbaijan, Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Elmar Mammadyarov announced on March 18, the APA news agency reported.

Nagorno-Karabakh, a region over which Baku lost control in 1994, is still recognized as part of Azerbaijan under international law.

There is little chance that Armenia, which acts as a protector of the largely ethnic Armenian region, would agree to Baku’s proposal.

[ashot24]

Re: Armenia and the information war

AZERBAIJAN: BAKU SAYS KARABAKH STATUS REFERENDUM MUST INCLUDE ALL OF AZERBAIJAN
3/18/10

Baku would accept a proposal to define the status of the breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh enclave through a referendum, but only if the poll is held on the entire territory of Azerbaijan, Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Elmar Mammadyarov announced on March 18, the APA news agency reported.

Nagorno-Karabakh, a region over which Baku lost control in 1994, is still recognized as part of Azerbaijan under international law.

There is little chance that Armenia, which acts as a protector of the largely ethnic Armenian region, would agree to Baku’s proposal.

You can bet we won't, not only Armenia but NKR. That was even stupid from them to say...

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenia and the information war

You can bet we won't, not only Armenia but NKR. That was even stupid from them to say...

i think they dont even listen to themselves when they talk. They try to come up with actions which they know Armenia will not do and blame us for being nonconstructive. i think we should counter by saying there should be a referendum but every Armenian in the world should be involved.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenia and the information war

AZERBAIJAN: BAKU SAYS KARABAKH STATUS REFERENDUM MUST INCLUDE ALL OF AZERBAIJAN
3/18/10

Baku would accept a proposal to define the status of the breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh enclave through a referendum, but only if the poll is held on the entire territory of Azerbaijan, Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Elmar Mammadyarov announced on March 18, the APA news agency reported.

Nagorno-Karabakh, a region over which Baku lost control in 1994, is still recognized as part of Azerbaijan under international law.

There is little chance that Armenia, which acts as a protector of the largely ethnic Armenian region, would agree to Baku’s proposal.

Unless this is a misquote or something- we are not gona see peace with the azeris. This stalemate is most likely gona drag on forever. The possibility of war to me seems to be diminishing now but so is the possibilty for a resolution. With both countries armed to the teeth, the powers are not gona want this to turn hot so this will linger like the india/pakistan situation.

[AstalaVist]

Re: Armenia and the information war

Serzh Sargsyan is President of Armenia, a country with a turbulent history, like a fair number of states which for a time were a part of the old USSR. Early in March on an official visit to Paris, the president spoke with Euronews about the Armenian genocide, relations between his country and Turkey, and on the frozen conflict of Nagorno Karabakh. Armenia is gripped in the geopolitical vice of the South Caucasus region, where Europe meets Asia.
Its border with Turkey has been blocked since the Nagorno Karabakh war. The consequences of this for all involved are serious, including for Armenia’s population of three million and the seven million Armenian diaspora.

Laura Davidescu, Euronews: President Sargsyan, with 23 votes in favour of the resolution and 22 against, the Foreign Affairs Committee of the United States’ House of Representatives has decided to declare that the 1915 massacre of over one million Armenians by the Ottoman Turks was genocide. Why do you think the committee has voted the resolution now?

President Serzh Sargsyan: Discussions on the recognition of the Armenian genocide are not new in the political life of the United States of America.
Several times at least in the past 10 years, the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Representatives has tried to vote on the resolution.
Forty-two states in the US have recognized the events as genocide, so the resolution on the 4th of March is neither a surprise nor a new thing for us.

Euronews: Do you think of any particular reason for them voting it now, in this particular context of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation?

Sargsyan: We are currently in discussions with Turkey on the issue of re-establishing our relations. This should be done without any preconditions, and I think that Turkey has no moral right to blame us about anything or to impose any conditions. Re-establishing relations without preconditions means we are not under any obligations to stay away from any of the possible topics.
Let’s say that, by some miracle, the Turkish Parliament ratifies the protocols, the Armenian Parliament does the same, we re-establish our relations and a third country, which is against us re-establishing our relations, on purpose takes up the genocide issue. Will the Turks, therefore, use this as a pretext and break off relations?

Euronews: If Armenia’s major problems now are unemployment, economic isolation and long- running disputes with Turkey and Azerbaijan, can these problems be more easily solved now?

Sargsyan: Our difficulties with Turkey did not begin yesterday. For 17 years, Turkey has kept the Armenian border under blockade. Was there such a resolution 17 years ago? We fully understand that Turkey is a big country — in terms of population, territory and power… vastly bigger than Armenia. And if we lived apart from each other we would [also] understand. But since Armenia and Turkey are part of the international community, and the United States, France and the European Union are too, then the international community must assess the developments and situations as they unfold.

Euronews: I would go back to the recognition of the Armenian genocide: If this issue is of paramount concern for Armenians both at home and in the Diaspora, could you please tell us why the Yerevan State University awarded an honorary degree to the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2007? The Iranian president denies the Holocaust.

Sargsyan: You know, we cannot oblige our neighbours to think as we do. One should not narrow things down to a single person. To bestow upon the leader of a country an honorific reward signifies an expression of gratitude and recognition towards the people of that country. The Iranians have been our neighbours for centuries and they are very important to us.

Euronews: Would you call the Yerevan state university’s decision Armenian “realpolitik”?

Sargsyan: I would consider it as a particular approach by the State University of Yerevan towards a particular issue, an approach quite current in Europe and in the democratically developed countries of the world.

Euronews: You are quoted as having said in London, in February, that Nagorno Karabakh was never a part of independent Azerbaijan. Well, the international community seems to have another opinion, another assessment.

Sargsyan: The international community does not have a different vision. History is well-known… Nagorno Karabakh was not a part of independent Azerbaijan. It was the Caucasus Bureau of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union which attached Nagorno Karabakh to Azerbaijan.
Why did the international community acclaim the collapse of the Soviet Union and not consider Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan part and parcel of the Soviet Union? — still saying Karabakh is an integral part of Azerbaidjan? It is not logical, is it?

Euronews: What kind of compromises are you willing to make in order to achieve a peaceful resolution of this conflict?

Sargsyan: One cannot eliminate the consequences of this conflict without addressing its causes. And when speaking about the causes… we talk about recognising the people of Nagorno Karabakh’s right of self determination… the recognition of this right and its implementation. The other problems will be solved rapidly after that.
The Armenian parts of this conflict, Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh, are profoundly interested in a swift resolution of this conflict. But a sustainable resolution that would allow for peace and security in the region, as opposed to giving Azerbaijan Nagorno Karabakh, which would spell the end of its existence.

Euronews: Azerbaijan states very clearly that it will never ever accept Nagorno Karabakh as an independent entity. They will never let it go.

Sargsyan: What does the international community propose to us? To solve this conflict on the basis of three principles of international law: firstly, self-determination; secondly, territorial integrity; and thirdly, the non-use of force. I propose, through you, the media, to appeal to Azerbaijan to sign an agreement not to use force. This would instill trust in the Armenian people of Karabakh and Armenia. And under these conditions of trust we would begin the negotiations for a settlement. We Armenians know very well what Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity means. We’ve talked about it openly several times. The Azerbaijanis… can they say what the right of self-determination means for the people of Nagorno Karabakh?
When we issue joint declarations about the right of self-determination, Azerbaijan is not talking about the Armenian people’s right to self-determination but of the right of the main player in the conflict… the people of Nagorno Karabakh.

euronews - 19/03 21:03 CET

http://www.euronews.net/2010/03/19/serzh-sargsyan-turkey-has-no-moral-right-to-blame-us-about-anything-or-to-/

[ashot24]

Re: Armenia and the information war

Here is the video from the above-mentioned interview

Serzh Sargsyan: "Turkey has no moral right to blame us...

[ashot24]

Re: Armenia and the information war

And in other news...
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Ilham Aliyev: Azerbaijan will never recognize independent Nagorno-Karabakh
17:29 / 03/20/2010


The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is currently at a crucial stage of settlement, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev stated at the celebrations of Novruz Bairam on March 20.

“We have reached the crucial stage in settling the conflict. The negotiations can be said to have mainly been completed. Most of the proposals, for a few exceptions, meet Azerbaijan’s interests. They ensure territorial integrity and return of all the occupied territories to Azerbaijan,” Aliyev said.

According to him, Azerbaijan has not made a single step back from its position at the negotiations. “We remain committed to our positions stated several years ago. Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity must be restored, the occupation troops must be withdrawn from all the occupied territories, for Azerbaijani citizens to return there. The communication has to be resumed, and, with Armenians – and, of course, Azerbaijanis — living there, Nagorno-Karabakh will be granted the highest status of autonomy,” Aliyev said.

According to him, the future will show what kind of status it will be. “Any status of Nagorno-Karabakh outside Azerbaijan is out of the question. It will not happen – neither tomorrow, nor in 100 years, never. We cannot accept it, and it is our position of principle. Nagorno-Karabakh will never be granted independence. Azerbaijan will never recognize Nagorno-Karabakh’s independence — nor the rest of the world will,” the Azeri leader said.

Aliyev stated that Azerbaijan is stepping up its diplomatic efforts, using its potential for consolidating its political economic and military systems.

“We do not conceal this fact because Azerbaijan is in a state of war. And it is no mere coincidence that defense expenses constitute a greater part of our on-budget expenditures. After the Armenian-Azerbaijani, Nagorno-Karabakh, conflict has been settled, such huge military expenses will, of course, not be needed any longer,” Ilham Aliyev said as quoted by 1news.az.

T.P.

http://news.am/en/news/17160.html