Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Reza Shah was in love with an Armenian woman.

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Thanks for the map details.

However, I am still dubious about your claim that the strip was bought from Iran in the 1930s.

It is not a claim, but a historic fact. Hellektor posted a good info on the actual details of the meeting between Mustapha Kemal and Reza Shah in Turkey and how the deal was sealed.

If you have access to a detailed (1:100,000 or better) map of the border during Tsarist times, that might settle the matter. The Turkish-Iranian border on 1930s maps runs along the Karasu river, a tributary of the Arax river - with the narrow strip between that river and the Arax constituting the "tongue zone". But on the pre-WW1 map I cited, the Russian-Persian border line running from Little Ararat stops at the Karasu, suggesting that the Karasu was also the border during Tsarist times. The Arax is a swampy marsh all along that zone, so the Karasu might have been a more easily defined border. On your Soviet Encyclopedia map the border is not shown touching the Arax river.

Below is a map from 1882 once again pretty clearly pointing out the border between the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire and Persia. once again clearly there is no "wedge" and the Persian border joins the Erevan province (what is today the Ararat province of RA) well above the Nakhichevan.

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

They didn't pay anything for it (it being the eastern side of little Ararat). Iran got some border territory from Turkey in return.

Whether a purchase or a trade in this case is today secondary, the fact that a land-link was created by Turkey with Nakhichevan is quite telling about the intent of building upon a link with the Turkic world via Azerbaijan.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

It is not a claim, but a historic fact. Hellektor posted a good info on the actual details of the meeting between Mustapha Kemal and Reza Shah in Turkey and how the deal was sealed.



Below is a map from 1882 once again pretty clearly pointing out the border between the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire and Persia. once again clearly there is no "wedge" and the Persian border joins the Erevan province (what is today the Ararat province of RA) well above the Nakhichevan.

Ahhh ... it's one of those "historic facts", which for that part of the world usually means anything but an historic fact!

Your small-scale map proves nothing because it shows nothing. You need 1:100,000 or better. That is the minimum scale that is needed.

Here is a poor-quality image of an Ottoman map of Russian territories north of Ararat. Though it is too small to be 100% certain, it seems to show that the border DID NOT run along the Arax. The northernmost part of the white area is the point where the Russian-Persian border meets the Karasu - it looks like it then runs southeast, along the Karasu and NOT along the Arax, so the border between Russia and Persia at that location is the same as the modern border between Turkey and Iran.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Whether a purchase or a trade in this case is today secondary, the fact that a land-link was created by Turkey with Nakhichevan is quite telling about the intent of building upon a link with the Turkic world via Azerbaijan.

You have proven no such thing. I was referring to the transfer of the eastern flanks of little Ararat to Turkey, which was done at Turkey's behest to make the border easier for them to control (to stop Kurdish guerillas moving freely between Turkey and Iran).

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Speaking of the Turkish Iranian border...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=108896&sectionid=351020102

[Hellektor]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hellektor, what do Iranians think of azeri's from fake azerbaijan?

The question of pan-Turkism and the appetite of fake “Azerbaijan” are still not that clear for many Iranians. I have included many points about real Azarbaijan and fake “Azerbaijan” in my thingy. The Rozaneh magazine article by Kaveh Farrokh is pretty well known and I have seen links posted to it on several boards. If you still haven't read it, do check it out. However, to summarize the subject:

Fake “Azerbaijan” incessantly conducts pan-Turkist activities in real Azarbaijan. There are underground movements that poison the minds of Azarbaijani Iranians, one such movement being SANAM. You can Google these groups, otherwise this post will be too long. One particular activity was the celebration for Babak Khorramdin, the Iranian hero from the 9th century AD (two centuries before Turks set hoof this side of the Caspian), who fought against Arabs to restore the Zoroastrian religion instead of Islam. He is claimed by the Tatars only because he was from real Azarbaijan. It's doubtful he ever saw a Turk in his life.

Every year they used to gather in a place in real Azarbaijan to celebrate this thing and they brought gray wolf insignia, “Azeri” flags, etc. This year, I have heard that the Iranian Azarbaijanis brought patriotic Iranian insignia: the Kaveh flags (derafsh Kaviani), wore patriotic t-shirts, etc. I heard this on a patriotic satellite TV channel, which broadcasts only audio (radio channel) in Iran. As this guy, himself an Azarbaijani Iranian called Paymaii, described the video which of course I couldn’t see, sounded really happy and satisfied because of the recent developments. I believe this video can be found on the internet. My dial-up connection and the heavy filtering, including Youtube, in Iran will not allow me to see this. Anyway, seems the Iranians are waking up and smelling the pan-Turkist shit which concerns them equally (if not even more than us) given the dark schemes of the Turk regarding the decimation of Iran to realize their sick delusion. Let’s hope all these projects fail.

The Iranian government might be a fascist, murderous, totalitarian, military dictatorship, but luckily they do not tolerate the slightest manifestations of separatism and brutally crush them when recognized.

The Turkish speaking Iranians lost their language as a result of centuries-long Turk domination yet their affinity is still to Iran and despite the fact that there are a few Azarbaijanis who have fallen into the pan-Turkist trap, the majority still feels, thinks, lives and breathes as Iranians.

As I have seen on several Iranian forums, other Iranians also dislike these pan-Turkic sentiments and reject the scumbags who post such separatist and anti-Iranian hate propaganda on Iranian boards. What I particularly would like to see happen would be, in collaboration with Iranian Armenians, the RoA statesmen would commission experts to prepare brochures, articles, booklet regarding histioric facts, the false claims of “Azeris” and the anti-Iranian garbage they feed their whelps in their school text books, so that these would be better known to Iranians and would also create a stronger alliance between Iran and Armenia, but from the sub-zero reaction of the Armenian statesmen to the destruction in broad daylight of the Jugha cemetery in 2005 I doubt such a thing would ever happen.

One last point: remember that the “Azeris” are Muslims, they are Shiites; in fact fake “Azerbaijan” is the only Shiite country in the world besides Iran. Thus, the Turkish speaking Iranians and the “Azeris” have these things plus the centuries-long Iranian rule in the region in common. That many have relatives in either side of the border is a natural thing, given the history. You know better that the “Azeris” are racially closer to Armenians than to any other people, they are recognized as Armenoids. As in Turkey, the main genetic makeup is that of the locals who were brutally turkified during the Turkic yoke. Because of the obvious linguistic and religious differences, we are less likely to find common ground with the genocidal savages, considering their hysteric, relentless and persistent anti-Armenian hateful and destructive actions.

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Thank you for the informative post Hellektor! I will be reading the links you provided.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

So will I... Hello and thanks Hellektor. You have a good deal of research and work!

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

It is not a claim, but a historic fact. Hellektor posted a good info on the actual details of the meeting between Mustapha Kemal and Reza Shah in Turkey and how the deal was sealed.

Nothing Hellektor posts is worth considering - it is always 100% garbage.

I was going to add that onto my earlier posting, decided not to, but in the light of the above two comments, I should have.