Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

hey guys...i'm new at this site! but i have pretty good idea about militaries...particullarly our military! i just have a question to Zoravar! I read ue posts and analyses...i agree with most! i just want to know the following:

does Armenia have its own S-300s? I know there are 4 Russian S-300V battaries in Armenia...Does Armenia posses any S-300s beside those 4 battaries? And are these batteries under Russian or Armenian control?

Welcome Snoopy12.

Yes, we have the S-300.
The air defense of Armenia is under joint Armenian/Russian control.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

God of War: Artillery

Our BM-21 GRAD rocket launchers are the desendents of the famous World War II KATYUSHAS

Stalin once said “Artillery is the God of War”.
Since its introduction it has been the most important cause of casualties on the battlefield. In some recent wars like the US led expeditions in Iraq and Afghanistan, airpower stole most of the “shine” away from the traditional artillery barrage. These latest wars were however exceptions because of the asymmetric balance of powers. In a more balanced conflict, like an eventual war over Nagorno Karabagh, artillery will be the king…or rather, the God of war.

In the August 2008 Georgian war, Saakashvili’s forces launched their attack against Tskinvali after an intensive artillery barrage against the city and its defenders. That barrage caused most of the civilian casualties and supressed the defenses of the S. Ossetian militia and the limited numbers of Russian peacekeepers on the ground. The counteroffensive of the 58th Russian army was successful because of the counterbattery fire (2S3 ACACCIA 152mm howitzers and URAGAN rocket launchers) as well as attack aircraft (Su-25). But of course, thanks to typical TV news coverage, the airforce got most of the credit.

In Artsakh, artillery will strongly influence the outcome of any offensive or defensive move. In the previous conflict late last century, both sides used guns, rockets and mortars extensively. The Azeri daily shelling of Stepanagerd from their strongholds in Susha is well documented. During that conflict, and to bring in more firepower, improvisations were made…home made pipe tubes for rockets and even adapted aircraft rocket pods were used in the ground-ground role. Quite often, our side ran short of shells. We replenished ourselves from various sources…including an original barter trade (artillery shells for anti-tank missiles) with Christian North-Ossetian militias who were fighting against Muslim Ingushetians at the same time.

Today, we are in much better shape in the field of artillery….but so do our opponents. Both sides use pretty much the same equipment consisting of cannons, howitzers and mortars of various caliber. They have an edge over us in the field of multiple rocket launchers. They have recently acquired from Israel a number of LYNX rocket launchers of various calibers as well as Soviet made SMERCH systems from Ukraine. I have discussed about the SMERCH and its 800 kg rocket in a previous post.

Made in Israel LYNX 160mm rocket launchers on parade in Baku

Made in Israel SEARCHER unmanned observation planes in Baku

The recent Azeri acquisitions give them some advantage (both numerical and qualitative), but artillery is not only in numbers. A cannon means nothing if you don’t know your enemy’s positions. Reconnaissance, target spotting, fire direction and results assessment are crucial. Timing is also very important in artillery fire. The rulers in Baku acquired (again from Israel) a number of unmanned observation planes (UAV) similar to the ones used by the Israeli forces in their 2006 conflict against Hezbollah in Lebanon. These UAVs are unarmed, they are to be used to locate targets in Artsakh and Armenia. Unlike Hezbollah which did not have significant anti-air means, we have a formidable air defense network that can minimize the benefit of these flying objects.


D-20 Towed howitzers of 152mm in Yerevan


2S-3 ACACCIA 152mm self propelled howitzer in Artsakh



Azeris will never be able to breach our defenses without artillery (and air) support. Our forces can counter them by using counter-battery fire. For the sake of the militarily uninformed reader, here is a simplistic scenario:

-The Azeri tank formations launch an attack on Nagorno-Karabagh under the cover of an intense artillery barrage. The shells land in front of the advancing tanks. As the tanks proceed forward, their artillerymen adjust their fire to keep firing always just ahead of the tanks to “soften” any Armenian defenses.
-Our artillery spotters and/or artillery locating radars (which identify the point of origin of a projectile) locate the position of the Azeri guns. Their exact coordinates are passed to our long range and most accurate guns, the 152mm GIASINT-B which open counter-battery fire to silence the Azeri artillery.
-The Azeri gunners have now 3 options: a) keep on the firing ahead of their advancing tanks to support the offensive until they are themselves annihilated by the precise fire of the Armenian artillery. b) Switch targets and get involved in a bloody artillery duel with the Armenian gunners. c) Retreat/change position.
Either way, they stopped supporting their armored offensive.
-Conclusion: the timely and precise intervention of the Armenian GIASINT-B cannons ensured the survival of our anti-tank defenses which now stand a better chance in stopping the advance of Azeri armor.


2A36 GIASINT-B 152mm cannon in Stepanagerd. BM-21 GRAD 122mm rocket launcher in the background


GIASINT-B and GRAD in Yerevan


The massive GIASINT-B in Yerevan

Technical note: different types of artillery systems: Artillery can be self-propelled and very mobile (desirable but expensive) or towed (less mobile but cheaper).

-Cannons are the most accurate and can have long range (up to 30+ km).
-Howitzers have a similar punch to cannons, but are less accurate and usually have a shorter range (around 20 km). They are cheaper than cannons.
-Rockets can have great range 20 km for the GRAD (40 km for the latest model) and 70 km (90 km for the latest model) for the SMERCH. They are not very accurate.
-Mortars are the cheapest and simplest artillery. But have a short range (less than 10 km for most models).

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Zoravar, thank you for this thread. I enjoy and appreciate your insight. May I ask if you know anything about Armenia's intelligence capabilities. I had heard rumors that post Soviet collapse there had been a purge of Armenia's KGB units. Do you know if that is true and also what if any intelligence capabilities does Armenia posses, both in hostile lands and friendly.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian Military To Draft Students

By Anush Martirosian

The Armenian government intends to abolish temporary exemptions from military service that have long been enjoyed by university students, a senior lawmaker confirmed on Monday.

Armenian law has until now allowed draft-age men enrolled in state-run universities to perform the two-year compulsory service after completing their undergraduate and/or graduate studies.

Reports in the Armenian press have said that the government has drafted legal amendments that will scrap the deferments. Prime Minister Tigran Sarkisian and other top government officials have pointedly declined to refute those reports.

Armen Ashotian, the chairman of the Armenian parliament’s committee on science, education and youth affairs, went farther, indicating that the amendments’ submission to the National Assembly is a matter of time. He argued that Armenia’s conscription-based army will increasingly face personnel shortages as it begins to draft young men born in the early 1990s.

The country’s population and birth rate sharply declined during those years because of the collapse of the Armenian economy and the resulting mass out-migration of hundreds of thousands of its citizens.

“The draft is reaching [those born during] the years of the so-called demographic slump,” said Ashotian. He said the government and the National Assembly should put in place financial and other incentives that would encourage demobilized soldiers to complete their higher education.

Vahan Shirkhanian, an opposition politician who had served as deputy defense minister throughout the 1990s, criticized the planned measure, saying it does not represent a fundamental solution to the problem. He said the loss of more mature university graduates, who are typically trained to become sergeants during their service, would hit the army hard.

Shirkhanian told RFE/RL that instead of drafting 18-year-old students the authorities should increase the number of military personnel serving on a contractual basis. “This is the only way of strengthening Armenia’s army,” he said.

The percentage of volunteer soldiers serving in Armenia’s Armed Forces has already risen significantly over the past decade.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/10/67F78FAA-A0F1-48C1-AF7A-5311313E9A36.ASP

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Shirkhanian told RFE/RL that instead of drafting 18-year-old students the authorities should increase the number of military personnel serving on a contractual basis. “This is the only way of strengthening Armenia’s army,” he said.

The percentage of volunteer soldiers serving in Armenia’s Armed Forces has already risen significantly over the past decade.

I would be best to encourage current soldiers to stay and make a career in the military. For the time being I don't think Armenia should have an all professional miltary, not only because it is expensive but because I think all males should serve in the military and be instilled with patriotic ideology. Plus it's an added benefit that the male population has gone thru basic military training and thus increases our "reserve of the reserve".

[Mos]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No one wants to serve in that army (though its the best army in the world!). You basically get tortured for 2 years then get sent home. I know a lot of people who have served some my relatives and others my friends, it's not a pretty place.

[crusader1492]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No one wants to serve in that army (though its the best army in the world!). You basically get tortured for 2 years then get sent home. I know a lot of people who have served some my relatives and others my friends, it's not a pretty place.

That sound no different than the US Army. Some call that "torture" you are talking about, training.

...and if you are serious when you say "the best army in the world", then that "torture" is paying off.

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No one wants to serve in that army (though its the best army in the world!). You basically get tortured for 2 years then get sent home. I know a lot of people who have served some my relatives and others my friends, it's not a pretty place.

This may have been true some years ago, and was in the 90s but it is NOT the case anymore. I too had relatives and family friends who served and only from those in the 90s did I hear such things.

[skhara]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

That sound no different than the US Army. Some call that "torture" you are talking about, training.

...and if you are serious when you say "the best army in the world", then that "torture" is paying off.

I think he may be talking about excessive hazing. You probably know better, but I am pretty sure that type of hazing is not allowed in the US Army as it happens in the former Soviet nations.

[crusader1492]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think he may be talking about excessive hazing. You probably know better, but I am pretty sure that type of hazing is not allowed in the US Army as it happens in the former Soviet nations.

I've heard about the hazing too. Moreover, I've also heard that hazing is going away per Armanen's post.

Anyway, soldiers ALWAYS complain. It is well know by army leadership, that if they are not complaining, somthing is wrong with moral. With that said, Mos's accusations with a grain of salt.

...Perhaps Zoravar can shed some light on this subject?